European official stages for tournaments (Melee)

[Luffy Dahean]

First off, forgive my bad english

I want to make this debate-post, so we could talk about the best stage-ruleset for big european tournaments. I will edit this first post as soon as the people send me a message with the official stages in their countries.

-Spain: 6 stages

Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Battlefield
Dreamland 64
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams (banned in teams)

-France:

Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Dreamland 64

Counterpick:

Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams

-Sweden:

-United Kingdom:

-The Netherlands:

Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Dreamland 64

Counterpick:

Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Battlefield

Kongo Jungle N64
Mute City
Rainbow Ride

(Brinstar)
(Corneria)

-Germany:

-Italy:

Once we have the list updated we could debate and argue about what could be the best ruleset for stages in european tournaments. Try to use logical reasons when you argue about your stage preference. If I forgot any european country with a big competitive scene just tell me and I will add them ^^

Remember to respect each other opinion, even if you think it is stupid.

 

[Marc]

For the Netherlands, it usually is...

Neutral (for random select):
-Final Destination
-Dream Land 64
-Pokémon Stadium

Counterpick:
-Yoshi's Story
-Fountain of Dreams
-Battlefield

Some tournaments have a few more stages for counterpick (like Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64 and Brinstar) and sometimes Battlefield is a neutral stage. This depends on the host, most people prefer it the way I put down above. The difference with the Spanish ruleset is that not every stage can be gotten out of the random select, because not every tournament viable stage is neutral. Of course this is debatable, one can argue that not a single stage is truely neutral.

 

[Slhoka]

For the Netherlands, it usually is...

Neutral (for random select):
-Final Destination
-Dream Land 64
-Pokémon Stadium

Counterpick:
-Yoshi's Story
-Fountain of Dreams
-Battlefield

Some tournaments have a few more stages for counterpick (like Mute City, Kongo Jungle 64 and Brinstar) and sometimes Battlefield is a neutral stage. This depends on the host, most people prefer it the way I put down above. The difference with the Spanish ruleset is that not every stage can be gotten out of the random select, because not every tournament viable stage is neutral. Of course this is debatable, one can argue that not a single stage is truely neutral.

Hum, pretty interesting. I tried to sum up the different rules yesterday, and the only dutch tournaments I saw were allowing those stages. Anyway, I don't really see the point of trying to do a standard european ruleset. We have different ways to play smash, and I think it's a good thing. IMO we got to keep this diversity, though we should sometimes make a few changes according the the foreigners comming to our tournaments (like adding Battlefield to the ruleset for the ESA series, or removing a few stages for in Sweden, Germany and Norway.

BTW, here's the French ruleset so Helios can say we are scrubs if he ever reads this topic :

Neutral (for random select):
-Final Destination
-Dream Land 64
-Pokémon Stadium

Counterpick:
-Yoshi's Story
-Fountain of Dreams

 

[Marc]

Hum, pretty interesting. I tried to sum up the different rules yesterday, and the only dutch tournaments I saw were allowing those stages.

They've gotten some more use recently, but they're "up to the host". It's not something universal for all Dutch tournaments and most good players won't ever use those stages. It just goes to show we're a little less conservative, I guess.

 

[$hYne]

The german Ruleset:

(yes we are pretty liberal)

Neutral

* Final Destination
* Dream Land 64
* Pokemon Stadium
* Fountain of Dreams (banned in teams)
* Yoshi´s Story



Counterpick:

* Princess Peachs Castle
* Kongo Jungle
* Corneria
* Rainbow Ride
* Jungle Japes
* Brinstar
* Onett (sometimes banned)
* Mute City (banned in teams)
* Poke Floats
* Battlefield
* Kongo Jungle 64 (neutral in teams)

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

I don't think we've ever had a tournament that didn't allow the stages mute city, kongo jungle 64 and rainbow ride. I don't see how marc can possibly say that those 6 stages are our standard ruleset.

Marc, could you please provide the tournaments that use those stages? Don't mind checking: zgetto monthlies; xtc; zest; atm; kobst. Because i already did.

 

[Marc]

Maybe people have gotten lazy recently and simply copy/pasted other people's rulesets, because I'm **** sure we all agreed that those 6 stages would be the basis for every ruleset. If it's true that Brinstar and Rainbow Ride were allowed at every tournament (more like 75% probably), we can at least conclude that no one or hardly anyone uses them at all, but that most hosts added them in anyway. There's no denying most of our good players are conservative and won't use those stages ever. So, even if more tournaments have those stages than I claimed, what I posted is still what we agreed on. We just chose to have a bit more room for creativity for individual hosts, although none of them actually seem to think about it anymore. Bottom line, I doubt anyone in our community worth anything would disagree with what I posted.

EDIT: I'd also like to point out that I don't visit tournaments that often anymore and when I go I don't check the ruleset all the time anymore. I just posted this stuff so someone would, you could at least cut me some slack.

 

[Joanna Dark]

Slhoka told me about the idea of a common ruleset that would be used ONLY in a tournament with foreigners from the countries who will have agreed on this common ruleset. I think the one Marc posted is a very good one to be used whenever there would be a tournament with foreigners
There should be a vote between the best players (top 10? 15?) in each country, so we can really agree ono that .
I think that in France, people will easily agree to that, we the more seriously we do that, the best it is.

I hope this works out, because the more we are united, the more we look serious

 

[Marc]

The feedback I got from the Dutchies was positive so far, but I'll make a poll one of these days just to make things clear. Everyone's free to join in on that deal, but I think everything east from the Netherlands will have a tough time banning all those crappy stages. =p

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

because I'm **** sure we all agreed that those 6 stages would be the basis for every ruleset.

I can't find the topic where we all agreed on this. We've always agreed that MC, RR and KJ64 would still be available for counterpick, not on 75% but on 100% of the tournaments. Brinstar and Corneria are up to the host.

So this is our standard ruleset:

Neutral
FD
DL64
PS

Counterpick
BF
YS
FoD
RR
MC
KJ64

Up to the host
Corneria
Brinstar

we can at least conclude that no one or hardly anyone uses them at all, but that most hosts added them in anyway.

What kind of argument is that? Let's also ban all the low tier charachters "because hardly anyone uses them at all" It wouldn't really matter for tournaments, but it would still be ********.

Hosts added them in because they were accepted stages, not because people used them that much.

So, even if more tournaments have those stages than I claimed, what I posted is still what we agreed on

Not true.

I'd also like to point out that I don't visit tournaments that often anymore and when I go I don't check the ruleset all the time anymore

We just chose to have a bit more room for creativity for individual hosts, although none of them actually seem to think about it anymore

Neither do you or anyone, because we've had an accepted ruleset.

Bottom line, I doubt anyone in our community worth anything would disagree with what I posted

Hmmm, i think that our 6 best players (amsah, adam, zgetto, choco, remen, faab) will agree on those stages. I think that from there on opinions are spread. But apparently, those people aren't worth anything.


Anyway, to get back to the point: You should have said: "I think that most dutch will agree to use this ruleset as a standard" (which could be true, just make the poll) instead of "this is what we agreed on and have used in the past" (because we didn't)

 

[$hYne]

So this is our standard ruleset:

Neutral
FD
DL64
PS

Counterpick
BF
YS
FoD
RR
MC
KJ64

Up to the host
Corneria
Brinstar

I really like this version. It's like the middle between France (too less stages) and germany (maybe too many stages).

 

[Marc]

What kind of argument is that? Let's also ban all the low tier charachters "because hardly anyone uses them at all" It wouldn't really matter for tournaments, but it would still be ********.

What it means, obviously, is that most of our players prefer no to use them. This sends us a message about their value in tournaments. Hosts copy and paste rulesets from 2 years ago, which are kinda outdated but not so much that people are bothered to create a new one. I was heading up the creation of that ruleset and I've spoken to many players about these things in the past years. Apparently people don't like those stages and it's easy to see why, all those stages have something going against them. Back then there was already a lot of discussion about having them and people seem to have become even more conservative over the past few years.

Hmmm, i think that our 6 best players (amsah, adam, zgetto, choco, remen, faab) will agree on those stages. I think that from there on opinions are spread. But apparently, those people aren't worth anything.

Your words, not mine. I do believe top players should have more of a say in this though.

Anyway, to get back to the point: You should have said: "I think that most dutch will agree to use this ruleset as a standard" (which could be true, just make the poll) instead of "this is what we agreed on and have used in the past" (because we didn't)

Most Dutch players I have spoken to about this agree that the first 6 stages are the way to go, but that those other 5 stages (depends on the stage really) might be used in tournaments. Still, it's pretty outdated and tolerated only because it hasn't become a problem, mostly thanks to stage banning. So yes, Mute City, Rainbow Ride, Kongo Jungle 64 and in the most extreme cases Brinstar and Corneria are often officially allowed, but they're not very popular anymore. I at least wouldn't call them the Dutch standard, but I'll add them anyway.

And no, I'm not gonna make polls for a new ruleset, because that'd take too much time and no one really has a problem with how things are now anyway. The only thing that currently matters is whether we want to make a deal with France, Spain and perhaps some other countries about a ruleset for big international events, which would be the first one I proposed. I'm all for that and I'd like to see us getting back to that topic, instead of nitpicking like this.

 

[Tero.]

The only thing that currently matters is whether we want to make a deal with France, Spain and perhaps some other countries about a ruleset for big international events, which would be the first one I proposed. I'm all for that and I'd like to see us getting back to that topic, instead of nitpicking like this.

Well spoken!
But don't forget germany.

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

I'm all for that and I'd like to see us getting back to that topic, instead of nitpicking like this.

Ok, i think you've got my point about incorrect information.

What about sweden? our second best european country? ()

 

[Marc]

But don't forget germany.

Well, is there any German interest in having that ruleset with the 6 stages for international events?

What about sweden? our second best european country? ()

With Helios less active, it seems Sweden is more separated from us than ever before. I really don't know much about their current activities.

 

[Tero.]

Well, is there any German interest in having that ruleset with the 6 stages for international events?

ofc there is.
We were tryin to create a more international ruleset for "Smash Royale" but stopped it in the end...

 

[Helios]

It's ALIVE!

Whatever happened to the neutral 5/6 stages?

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

They got *****, now there are only 2/3 left.

FoD was so heavily unbalanced (moving platforms :O) that it's taken out of random. Just like BF, because people can't handle edges that don't behave the same as FD edges.

 

[Ryuker]

Love the german stage list lets go with that ^^.

 

[Tero.]

Love the german stage list lets go with that ^^.

/agreed.

Persoally i would be fine with only two random stages: FD and YS but yeah i suppose nobody would agree to that xD

But 5 random stages + stagebanning > 3 random stages + no stagebanning

 

[Marc]

Except people are usually fine with those 3 stages and every stage you add would be a candidate for their ban.

Ivo: Many players feel that FoD screws their character over (Falco, Falcon, Ganondorf players mostly). Back then I was actually in favour of having it on random, but I can definitely see their point. If so many people are opposed to it, they should be listened to. It also weren't just n00bs who had issues with it.

 

[Helios]

I have issues with Dreamland 64, where do I file my complaints?

 

[Mr P]

I have issues with Dreamland 64, where do I file my complaints?

You still play this game ?

 

[Marc]

I have issues with Dreamland 64, where do I file my complaints?

In your own community kthxbye.

 

[Tero.]

I have issues with Dreamland 64, where do I file my complaints?

n1 ^^

but he's right.
the german ruleset only bans stages because of real reasons like hazards etc., thats why stages like rainbow ride are still counterpickable, most other rulesets are like "we dont like the stages let ban them" >_>

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

In your own community kthxbye.

European official stages for tournaments (Melee)

Since when doesn't Sweden belong to europe anymore?

Let's go by german rules, they look fine.

 

[Tero.]

Let's go by german rules, they look fine.

<3

Edit: yay 2 people who agree to the german ruleset

 

[Marc]

Yeah, but we were talking about the Dutch ruleset.

Ivo and Ryuker can go live in Germany. :3

 

[kJaBsmasher]

I think the german ruleset is pretty good because you have to know the stages and they are not that unfair. tehy are counterpicks for reason and with good knowledge and stageskills you can fight on equal terms with a better player.
I love our ruleset. A lot of hard work has gone into it especially by RaF who checked all stages and played them nonstop.
tournament experience also contributed to the development and I think we've got a good one there

 

[Faab]

Neutral stages

* Final Destination
* Dream Land 64
* Pokemon Stadium
* Yoshi´s Story
* Battlefield
* Kongo Jungle 64
* Rainbow Ride

Wouldn't it be perfect to just have this on neutral and no other stages allowed 0_o.

 

[Tero.]

Neutral stages

* Final Destination
* Dream Land 64
* Pokemon Stadium
* Yoshi´s Story
* Battlefield
* Kongo Jungle 64
* Rainbow Ride

Wouldn't it be perfect to just have this on neutral and no other stages allowed 0_o.

Would be really cool yeah, but i dont think many people would agree.
Also it kinda reduces the concept of counterpicking.

 

[Ryuker]

So thats 3 dutch already that don't seem to support Marc's so called dutch accepted ruleset .

 

[Marc]

You and Ivo have never agreed to anything. You want to turn on items for Brawl. Faab's is a different ruleset altogether. That's great, but I can't help you.

 

[kJaBsmasher]

Neutral stages

* Final Destination
* Dream Land 64
* Pokemon Stadium
* Yoshi´s Story
* Battlefield
* Kongo Jungle 64
* Rainbow Ride

Wouldn't it be perfect to just have this on neutral and no other stages allowed 0_o.

the neutral stages all together should be kinda neutral.
if one character has a slight advantage on one stage, it should be okay if he has a slight adavantage on another stage.
but KJ64, RR, and Battlefield aren't fullfilling this condition imo.
i think the first 5 satges are good to be put together on neutral, but th other ones aren't that good
BF is good for marth and bad for fastfaller.
KJ64 is good for peach and sheik imo and bad for falco.
rainbow ride is kinda random and not something that should be in neutrals, but named as a CP.

 

[Faab]

KJ64 ain't a bad stage for falco man, and also give peach some love, there aint many around anyway.
Rainbow ride isn't random in any way and it's just a awsome stage :O.
BF is pretty bad for space animals yeah, but it aint a problem with stagebans. And they do deserve a stage that is less good for em :D.

 

[Helios]

I wouldn't say KJ64 (DK64) is neutral, but it's definitely tournament viable. Thus the need for counterpick stages! =)

 

[ivootjes(nr18)]

You and Ivo have never agreed to anything. You want to turn on items for Brawl. Faab's is a different ruleset altogether. That's great, but I can't help you.

Lol, don't turn things around now, i've always agreed with all the awesome rulesets we've had, you were the one crying that things should be changed, just like you're doing now again

Besides, where are the dutch that actually agree to "our accepted ruleset"?

 

[Marc]

We've had a big topic about it in which everyone voiced their opinion, including you and Ryuker. You also don't seem to understand that I'm not that active anymore. If you still think we need another ruleset, take care of it. I might whine a lot, but I've always taken action when I disagreed. Although I doubt it matters much at this point in time, I won't stop you from going through all this AGAIN. The only thing I'm concerned about is coming to an agreement with other countries, something very few people seem to work for. Don't forget that breaking things is easier than building them.

 

[porc]

the point here is not to change the ruleset of any country, but to agree on a ruleset for future tournaments where foreigners will attend...
this shouldn't be too hard to pull off, let's all be reasonnable that's all

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

This is the Standard Italian Ruleset for tournaments.. since the Italian Melee community (including myself) at the moment is very unactive, I guess you can consider this as what is closest to our opinion about a good international ruleset for tournaments..

-People who are called to play and don't show up after 15 minutes automatically lose their whole set.
-Pause is disabled. In case of urgent need, a player can ask his opponent a break.
-Stalling is banned as well as Wobbling. Other glitches such as Peach's Wallbomber, Jigglypuff's rising pound, etc. commonly banned in tournaments are banned as well.
-Characters can be chosen (if requested) using double blind pick in the first match of each set.
-Advanced Slob Picks are used for counterpicking.

Stages:

green stages are on random.
yellow ticked stages are used as counterpicks.
red barred stages are banned.

-Dave's stupid rule is ON.
-Stage banning is OFF.
-4 stocks.
-Time limit set on 8 minutes.