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Equipment Explanation, and Why it's Probably not Tournament Viable

punkonjunk

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I like what I've seen of equipment so far. eventually, we'll all have basically ground out the best we can, but it still offers heavy customization. I really hope we see a lot of this in more competitive scenes, because of how much variation it could introduce, how two foxs could match up and play completely differently.

for fun, and for glory tournament scenes - custom and clean fighters? I imagine we'll see.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Okay, obviously custom equipment isn't random enough, because I have two sets of Super Final Smasher gloves (different stats though), two Crouch Healer Jackets (again, different stats), and even more spectacularly I have two Super Brawn Badges with exactly the same stats (Attack +23, Defence -11).

Then again, I think this game's RNG just hates me overall. I got two of the same custom move for Charizard in one Classic Mode run!
 

PushDustIn

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Wow @ JamietheAuraUser JamietheAuraUser , I have over 1,420 pieces of equipment and I'm pretty sure I still haven't run into any doubles (Also, I have only 88 effects!). I agree the RNG is pretty terrible as I'm still grinding for hats. Hoping to figure out how to game it sometime.
 

JamietheAuraUser

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Wow @ JamietheAuraUser JamietheAuraUser , I have over 1,420 pieces of equipment and I'm pretty sure I still haven't run into any doubles (Also, I have only 88 effects!). I agree the RNG is pretty terrible as I'm still grinding for hats. Hoping to figure out how to game it sometime.
Speaking of hats, I discovered pretty quickly after getting the game that hats you get from completing challenges are also in the random rotation of hats you can acquire from Classic mode. How did I find this out? Because I got a Luigi hat as a Classic Mode reward. Despite there being about a billion other hats that I didn't have yet as that was one of my earliest Classic runs, I got a Luigi hat. Which I'd literally just gotten from one of the panels on the first challenge page.

But yeah, I managed to get Charizard's Fire Fang twice in the same Classic run. **** it game! I mean, I suppose that might be helpful if I actually died once, since it was a move that was otherwise new, but that's still pretty freakin' ridiculous.
 
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Terotrous

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I feel like armor that has effects would undeniably have to be banned. First of all, those items are extremely rare, and thus getting one with good stats could confer an unduly huge advantage, and secondly, some of them are gamebreaking. Regular equipment that only affects stats? Not as inherently gamebreaking, but I'm sure that it'll wreak havoc with the overall game balance simply because there's no way they could have tested the bazillion possible matchups this creates. I figure equipment is just going to be for funsies and that's it.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Wow @ JamietheAuraUser JamietheAuraUser , I have over 1,420 pieces of equipment and I'm pretty sure I still haven't run into any doubles (Also, I have only 88 effects!). I agree the RNG is pretty terrible as I'm still grinding for hats. Hoping to figure out how to game it sometime.
I've gotten some doubles that have the exact same boosts and drops; I had two Super Brawn Badges which offer +34 attack and -20 defense. I did end up selling the duplicate, since I'm unsure if you can only hold a certain amount of equipment at one time.
 

PushDustIn

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I wouldn't worry about selling equipment (unless you really want to). The game seems to have all the equipment I collected. Here's a 6 minute video of me scrolling through them. It does seem I have some duplicates. Never noticed them since I just use whatever gives the best stat boast.
[Excuse the burp! I take after Wario sometimes].
 

Vigilant Gambit

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I think this is the most important question to answer with regards to Equipment use in tournaments.

Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament?

As I said in the thread I just linked:

I have a better question than "Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament?"

It's "Exactly what do we have to lose by allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? What does it cost us as players and as TOs?"

It costs us time unlocking the items we want, as players. It costs us... nothing, as TOs, since the players have to unlock something if they wanna use it. (We can worry about the Wii U version once it's in people's hands and we know what the deal is with that. Speculating at this point is useless.)

So what is the "cost" of allowing equipment in tournaments, exactly?
I have a couple more-specific questions to ask the tournament community now that we seem to have an almost-complete list of Equipment effects.

The first is, "Are the modifications provided by equipment interesting enough to be worth exploring competitively?" And the follow-up is, "Are they interesting enough to warrant the time it will take to grind them out?"

My answer to the first question is yes. Some stuff on that list is super interesting to me. Imagine heavy falls + decreased landing lag.

As for the second question, I honestly don't know. Grinding just to unlock stuff is kinda painful, but if you've managed to get 80+ different effects in only 32 hours, then I'm not sure just how bad it would be. If we don't use equipment, nobody has to grind. (Nevermind having to grind for custom moves anyway, though, I guess since there are a lot less of those to unlock. I'm still missing one for Bowser...)

If we use Equipment, everyone will have to grind, or they might be left behind. My main concern is that we simply don't know what the game we're giving up on is like when we decide to ban Equipment before actually exploring it competitively. The most vocal argument I've seen against Equipment is that "it will be unbalanced" as if we already know that the game is a bastion of balance as-is.
 

Terotrous

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I think this is the most important question to answer with regards to Equipment use in tournaments.

Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament?
Oh sure, we can try it, and it might even be entertaining, but it'll almost certainly be really unbalanced. There's nothing stopping us from running tournaments using FFA or playing Smash Run tournaments or whatever else, it's just that those modes don't have the same depth that the main competitive mode does and thus people don't tend to stay interested in them as long, ultimately resulting in fewer signups.

You can definitely try persuading your TO to run and stream such a tournament (or do it yourself), and if people have fun maybe there's some future in it, but my hopes aren't high.
 
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DunnoBro

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A real shame there wasn't a KIU-style fusion system, then we'd be able to make things with some kind of regularity.
...I hope this isn't serious lmao

Even with streetpass abuse you had to grind for countless hours to get the proper mods. (Negative mods being the most difficult.)
 

Vigilant Gambit

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Oh sure, we can try it, and it might even be entertaining, but it'll almost certainly be really unbalanced. There's nothing stopping us from running tournaments using FFA or playing Smash Run tournaments or whatever else, it's just that those modes don't have the same depth that the main competitive mode does and thus people don't tend to stay interested in them as long, ultimately resulting in fewer signups.

You can definitely try persuading your TO to run and stream such a tournament (or do it yourself), and if people have fun maybe there's some future in it, but my hopes aren't high.
Let's find out if it'll be really unbalanced by running some tournaments. We won't know if it is until we do. Anything we say before we do that is pure, useless conjecture. I don't think "it might be bad" is a good enough reason not to explore this part of the game.

What I'm trying to do is persuade everyone to at least be willing to give equipment a chance. As it stands right now, the majority of people dismiss it out of hand because grinding for good equipment sucks, and some of the equipment/stat effects look scary in theory, or in some training mode video against a non-customized AI character. So the first big tournament says "we'll allow 4 stages and custom moves, but no equipment." And now every other tournament is following that ruleset without doing any research of their own on whether that is what's best for the game and the meta.

Edit: PushDustin, after 32+ hours of grinding, exactly how good are the equipment sets that you use? Can you post some examples?
 
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Terotrous

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Let's find out if it'll be really unbalanced by running some tournaments. We won't know if it is until we do. Anything we say before we do that is pure, useless conjecture. I don't think "it might be bad" is a good enough reason not to explore this part of the game.
Oh, it will definitely be unbalanced as all heck. There's no way they could have balanced tested the millions of possible combinations, and some custom parts are objectively better than others.

At best, it might have the same kind of semi-balance that CCGs and Pokemon have, where the game is playable with the aid of a complex banlist that removes the most significantly broken items. Even then, Pokemon has very strong tiers where most pokemon from lower tiers are not usable at all in higher tiers (similarly, in most CCGs 50% of cards are totally useless) so we'd likely have a much smaller roster of viable characters and parts than in the standard game.


What I'm trying to do is persuade everyone to at least be willing to give equipment a chance.
Are you willing to give Smash Run a chance as a competitive mode? I sense most people dismiss this out of hand for most of the same reasons (too random, too many factors to be balanced, etc), but at least here most of the pieces of custom equipment have advantages and drawbacks (unlike in standard mode where some are purely advantageous).
 

LancerStaff

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...I hope this isn't serious lmao

Even with streetpass abuse you had to grind for countless hours to get the proper mods. (Negative mods being the most difficult.)
With fusion, you had actual control over what happens. Now you just have to grind for hours for a chance at said perfect equipment.
 

Vigilant Gambit

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Oh, it will definitely be unbalanced as all heck. There's no way they could have balanced tested the millions of possible combinations, and some custom parts are objectively better than others.

At best, it might have the same kind of semi-balance that CCGs and Pokemon have, where the game is playable with the aid of a complex banlist that removes the most significantly broken items. Even then, Pokemon has very strong tiers where most pokemon from lower tiers are not usable at all in higher tiers (similarly, in most CCGs 50% of cards are totally useless) so we'd likely have a much smaller roster of viable characters and parts than in the standard game.



Are you willing to give Smash Run a chance as a competitive mode? I sense most people dismiss this out of hand for most of the same reasons (too random, too many factors to be balanced, etc), but at least here most of the pieces of custom equipment have advantages and drawbacks (unlike in standard mode where some are purely advantageous).
"Let's not give it a trial run because it will be bad." How about you use your amazing precognitive powers to provide me with the winning lotto numbers instead of telling me how Equipment will affect Smash competition?

Also, why do you keep bringing up Smash Run? If you wanna discuss the tournament viability of that, then go create your own thread. This one is about Equipment.
 

Terotrous

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"Let's not give it a trial run because it will be bad." How about you use your amazing precognitive powers to provide me with the winning lotto numbers instead of telling me how Equipment will affect Smash competition?
I am 100% in favour of giving it a trial run. At the very least, it will probably be hilarious. I'm just very confident that it will not become the standard.

If you feel strongly about this, talk to your local TO and see if they will stream such a tournament for one week.
 
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Vigilant Gambit

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I am 100% in favour of giving it a trial run. At the very least, it will probably be hilarious. I'm just very confident that it will not become the standard.

If you feel strongly about this, talk to your local TO and see if they will stream such a tournament for one week.
When I say "trial run" I'm talking on the order of 6 months to a year, minimum.

But this is a really hard sell, even for a relatively small local tournament. Nevermind that once the initial barrier of grinding for items is overcome, you never have to do it again, just like unlocking characters and custom moves.
 

DunnoBro

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Oh sure, we can try it, and it might even be entertaining, but it'll almost certainly be really unbalanced. There's nothing stopping us from running tournaments using FFA or playing Smash Run tournaments or whatever else, it's just that those modes don't have the same depth that the main competitive mode does and thus people don't tend to stay interested in them as long, ultimately resulting in fewer signups.

You can definitely try persuading your TO to run and stream such a tournament (or do it yourself), and if people have fun maybe there's some future in it, but my hopes aren't high.
The issue imo wouldn't be a lack of depth. Truly, equipments add a lot of depth. So much most players will probably never even be able to see the freaking bottom, and to be able to see it they need to jump through a series of hoops that has nothing to do with being competitive. And that's the issue, and why people wouldn't join.

If we assume the conditions were met to create their ideal sets, and they had ample time to practice... It'd be very deep with a plethora of different playstyles, mindsets, and demand for adaption. So there is potential there.

The issue is how we get there. Generally to construct a competitive environment, it's structured so all participants have the same basic resources and potential. This is why women don't play men's sports, and why we have different weight classes in boxing. So we can keep things as balanced as possible.

Randomization, grinding, variances, or combinations thereof are not inherently detrimental to competition. In fact, in cases like pokemon(gen 6) it's good that people can't just think up a dream team and have it as soon as they do. This would dilute the competitive experience, and discourage people actually researching on team ideas and how best to train them.

However, pre gen 6 and in games like Kid Icarus Uprising, this effect was too great. People had to dedicate entire months/lives to the game to develop themselves, and when they did it wasn't like they'd only use that one team/weapon forever. And they also couldn't spend enough time developing their own skills in that time frame.

This equipment system does just that. If it were less randomized, perhaps came with a list of equipment and which characters were more likely to receive them (or even beating those characters in classic mode) where there was some method to the madness, so that it was feasible for someone to pick up the game and be prepared to at least TRAIN with people more experienced in the game within a foreseeable time frame, then we could allow ourselves to be more optomistic.

All that said, there is one way I can foresee equipment becoming tournament legal.

If Datel Powersaves ever releases an equipment unlock code, and TOs provide the Powersaves at registration (takes a minute to overwrite, and it's permanent) there'd be no reason to exclude them in their entirety unless we find the equipments themselves are broken/uncompetitive. Because if the best of the best are available, there's no reason to exclude people who got theirs legitimately too (while possibly weaker)

With fusion, you had actual control over what happens. Now you just have to grind for hours for a chance at said perfect equipment.
You had no control over the drops you got aside from their general values, and the way the stars/mods transfer were also essentially random. The only control you had was whether or not to fuse, and which two weapons to fuse. You had no control over what happened at all. The game showed you what it would make, what mods it would take off and if it took off the wrong ones, oh well.

You could feasibly get a particular weapon, maybe with a mod or two and with decent stars. But overall it'd likely still be extremely inefficient. Just like here.

I enjoyed KI:U endlessly, and made some great weapons under this system (was probably the one of the first to realize eyetracks + shot range + shot homing = GG) but only until i started cloning did I start making the perfect weapons and did the headaches cease.
 

Dsull

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Initially i thought the Equipment was just going to be cosmetic stuff, but then i saw someone make a lightning fast Bowser and went "wtf theres no way thats going to be acceptable in a tournament"
Special moves i have no issue with, i havent seen any that have a game-changing effect. Yes i know Megaman has a skull shield that reflects, but face it his leaf shield is pretty lame anyway so it shoulda been the skull anyway. Still has a bad windup/throw time and cant do anything other than throw it when its up.
 

LancerStaff

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You had no control over the drops you got aside from their general values, and the way the stars/mods transfer were also essentially random. The only control you had was whether or not to fuse, and which two weapons to fuse. You had no control over what happened at all. The game showed you what it would make, what mods it would take off and if it took off the wrong ones, oh well.

You could feasibly get a particular weapon, maybe with a mod or two and with decent stars. But overall it'd likely still be extremely inefficient. Just like here.

I enjoyed KI:U endlessly, and made some great weapons under this system (was probably the one of the first to realize eyetracks + shot range + shot homing = GG) but only until i started cloning did I start making the perfect weapons and did the headaches cease.
You have alot more control over fusion then you think. Fusion works on set rules very consistently, and with the proper know-how, you can plan ahead and really simplify things. Really, KIU is the type of game that continually rewards you for putting time in. Grinding won't be a big deal once you get a decent stockpile, and if you get the point where I'm at, you'll have every important mod isolated so you can slap something together with streetpass. Then there's homepass, which is turning your router into a Nintendo Zone (Not sure how, something like changing the name of the thing. It's not difficult at any rate.) to streetpass yourself. It'll give you your last five gems you sent to it, even.

Eyetracks? Er, when was the last time you played?
 

DunnoBro

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You have alot more control over fusion then you think. Fusion works on set rules very consistently, and with the proper know-how, you can plan ahead and really simplify things. Really, KIU is the type of game that continually rewards you for putting time in. Grinding won't be a big deal once you get a decent stockpile, and if you get the point where I'm at, you'll have every important mod isolated so you can slap something together with streetpass. Then there's homepass, which is turning your router into a Nintendo Zone (Not sure how, something like changing the name of the thing. It's not difficult at any rate.) to streetpass yourself. It'll give you your last five gems you sent to it, even.
Well if you're using streetpass/homepass then I understand. I was speaking in terms of the base system. Homepass/Streetpass abuse aren't really apart of that system, though they should be. Everything feels methodical and it still takes a time/effort investment to grind the hearts, sort through the stockpile and do the research to make the right materials.

That isn't possible without cloning though.

Eyetracks? Er, when was the last time you played?
Quite a while ago, honestly. Has everyone finally figured out how easy they are to shut down?
 

Terotrous

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The issue imo wouldn't be a lack of depth. Truly, equipments add a lot of depth. So much most players will probably never even be able to see the freaking bottom, and to be able to see it they need to jump through a series of hoops that has nothing to do with being competitive.
Equipment adds complexity, but complexity isn't necessarily the same thing as depth. Depth is a more nebulous concept that involves the number and variety of competitively viable playstyles. For example, Brawl has more stages and characters than Melee, which makes it more complex, but it has less depth because there are a few strategies that centralize the metagame. My belief is that you'd see a similar situation happen with equipment items - due to the impossibility of testing all possible combinations for balance, we will likely find a few sets that are just ludicrously dominant with no drawbacks of any kind. Even if there are many such sets, the ability to patch up holes in a character's toolset may render the cast overly homogenous and reduce the depth that way.

Of course, I cannot prove this is the case, but there's certainly a lot of precedent to suggest this is what would happen. Virtually all games that offer such "limitless customization" require some pretty complex banlists and constant, ongoing tweaks to overall balance to have any kind of competitive viability.
 
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DunnoBro

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Fair enough, it is possible some equipment could simply overshadow others. Though I don't think actually testing all possible combinations is a valid point against it, since the majority of these equipment seem to be rather benign, kind of like how most pokemon attacks suck. I'm sure somewhere down the line when we know all the equipment there is, we can narrow it down to what matters (or which matters when) and find out for sure which are problems.

Should we even actually "Test" for balance ourselves or just observe what problems are?

I do also fear a lot of complex banlists and tweaks like what's going on with pokemon right now.
 

Vigilant Gambit

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Equipment adds complexity, but complexity isn't necessarily the same thing as depth. Depth is a more nebulous concept that involves the number and variety of competitively viable playstyles. For example, Brawl has more stages and characters than Melee, which makes it more complex, but it has less depth because there are a few strategies that centralize the metagame. My belief is that you'd see a similar situation happen with equipment items - due to the impossibility of testing all possible combinations for balance, we will likely find a few sets that are just ludicrously dominant with no drawbacks of any kind. Even if there are many such sets, the ability to patch up holes in a character's toolset may render the cast overly homogenous and reduce the depth that way.

Of course, I cannot prove this is the case, but there's certainly a lot of precedent to suggest this is what would happen. Virtually all games that offer such "limitless customization" require some pretty complex banlists and constant, ongoing tweaks to overall balance to have any kind of competitive viability.

So the use of Equipment might result in a lower-depth game than Smash 4 without it.

Also, I went ahead and bolded all of the parts of your post where you speculate. I think it's really important to understand that what you're saying might be true, but we will never know if we don't give it a chance. And we stand to lose nothing in the experiment.

Why?

Because at the end of the day, if we let Equipment rock for a year and decide that what it brings to the table isn't for us? We can unequip it and play the game anyway.
 

Terotrous

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Fair enough, it is possible some equipment could simply overshadow others. Though I don't think actually testing all possible combinations is a valid point against it, since the majority of these equipment seem to be rather benign, kind of like how most pokemon attacks suck. I'm sure somewhere down the line when we know all the equipment there is, we can narrow it down to what matters (or which matters when) and find out for sure which are problems.

Should we even actually "Test" for balance ourselves or just observe what problems are?

I do also fear a lot of complex banlists and tweaks like what's going on with pokemon right now.
At the most basic level, equipment turns every character into 4 characters:

- Character which has generally balanced stats (similar to, but slightly better than the base character, since it's possible to be positive for all 3 stats)
- Character which has a lot of power, but is weak defensively
- Character which has a lot of defense, but is slow
- Character which has a lot of speed, but is weak offensively


These four characters are generally drastically different from each other. In some cases some are likely garbage, but I'm sure some of them will be viable.


Beyond this, there are also effects. Some effects drastically change how characters play, like heavy jumps, reduced landing lag, increased dash speed, etc. There are also some that seem to have the potential for abuse, like healing, invincibility, starting with an item, shield regen, etc.


As you said before, the rabbit hole goes down a long way, but unfortunately the sense I get is that the balance testing goes nowhere at all. I've already discovered equipment that gives seemingly ludicrously beneficial abilities, like +75 defense, -6 attack, heavy jumps. Clearly, the game thinks heavy jumps is bad, but in some situations it can be good, and you're getting an insane amount of defense thrown in. Increased Dashing Speed is also really strong, it can pretty much make up for a low speed stat, allowing you to crank your defense without much penalty.


I dunno, like I said, people are welcome to test it, but I suspect it'll just be entertaining nonsense.

Because at the end of the day, if we let Equipment rock for a year and decide that what it brings to the table isn't for us? We can unequip it and play the game anyway.
If you can find someone to run equipment-enabled tournaments for a year you're welcome to try it. I'd try the west coast #shotsfired
 
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DunnoBro

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I'd like to see some eshop DLC where people download Smooth Lander, Hard Braker, and a new "Shy Badge" that doesn't let them grab the ledge if someone else is on it, and if all these are equipped they come out to +0-0

Plz nintendo

I'd have a very Melee Christmas.

At the most basic level, equipment turns every character into 4 characters:

- Character which has generally balanced stats (similar to, but slightly better than the base character, since it's possible to be positive for all 3 stats)
- Character which has a lot of power, but is weak defensively
- Character which has a lot of defense, but is slow
- Character which has a lot of speed, but is weak offensively


These four characters are generally drastically different from each other. In some cases some are likely garbage, but I'm sure some of them will be viable.


Beyond this, there are also effects. Some effects drastically change how characters play, like heavy jumps, reduced landing lag, increased dash speed, etc. There are also some that seem to have the potential for abuse, like healing, invincibility, starting with an item, shield regen, etc.


As you said before, the rabbit hole goes down a long way, but unfortunately the sense I get is that the balance testing goes nowhere at all. I've already discovered equipment that gives seemingly ludicrously beneficial abilities, like +75 defense, -6 attack, heavy jumps. Clearly, the game thinks heavy jumps is bad, but in some situations it can be good, and you're getting an insane amount of defense thrown in. Increased Dashing Speed is also really strong, it can pretty much make up for a low speed stat, allowing you to crank your defense without much penalty.


I dunno, like I said, people are welcome to test it, but I suspect it'll just be entertaining nonsense.
MvC seems to do just fine with all those combinations of characters. Pokemon also drastically differ in playstyles often. Don't get me wrong, that's a valid point worth discussing, but I think we need go deeper than the explanation.

Also, I noticed situations like that. At the cost of no invincibility upon respawn, you get 60 speed and only -5 attack (forget the name)

But remember, this is not specific to you and everyone (should) have access to stats like these. While it may seem offputting that you can ignore the negatives mostly, so can everyone else. That's inherently balanced, in a way.
 
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S2

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Even if we ignore any potential balance issues with equipment, I think the real problem with it is the random stats system.

The barrier of entry into competitive play should not be grinding with the hopes of getting high stat items. This is going to require everyone who wants to compete to have high-value drops if they want a level playing field. Players shouldn't enter matches at a disadvantage because they weren't favored by RNG in their drops.

I still think custom moves are fine for consideration since they're consistent. Knowing your opponents alternate attacks and how to deal with them is the same as having match-up knowledge for the original moveset. They'll make the game bigger and increase the amount of match-ups and styles between fighters, but I don't see that as a bad thing.
 

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MvC seems to do just fine with all those combinations of characters. Pokemon also drastically differ in playstyles often. Don't get me wrong, that's a valid point worth discussing, but I think we need go deeper than the explanation.
MvsC doesn't let you customize the characters beyond the assist type, and only a few characters have multiple viable assists. There really aren't too many other fighters that have a feature like this. The best example is probably Jump Ultimate Stars with its Koma, but competitive play is typically limited to 1 on 1 battles with certain assists being banned. Its competitive scene also isn't very large. Most other games that allow this degree of customization are either anime fighters or mech fighters and they generally have no competitive scene to speak of.


Also, I noticed situations like that. At the cost of no invincibility upon respawn, you get 60 speed and only -5 attack (forget the name)

But remember, this is not specific to you and everyone (should) have access to stats like these. While it may seem offputting that you can ignore the negatives mostly, so can everyone else. That's inherently balanced, in a way.
It may be balanced, but the problem is it's centralizing. Looking at the example I posted, for example, you can get this amazing defensive boost and a good effect for almost no drawback. Why would you ever use a normal defensive item (with no effect) when this is available? This is why I fear the total number of viable sets may be fairly small.
 

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Well if you're using streetpass/homepass then I understand. I was speaking in terms of the base system. Homepass/Streetpass abuse aren't really apart of that system, though they should be. Everything feels methodical and it still takes a time/effort investment to grind the hearts, sort through the stockpile and do the research to make the right materials.

That isn't possible without cloning though.


Quite a while ago, honestly. Has everyone finally figured out how easy they are to shut down?
Homepass is very easy to set up. It's an outside system, yes, but it's very much a part of the metagame.

Grinding hearts is pretty easy, actually. Make an Upperdash Arm with MDA+4 FHB+6 and such then fight lvl 1 CPUs with their HP set to 10% and the timer to a minute. Bust out Trade-off and Energy Charge and knock some heads on Small Arena. 30k a match, I think?

Shot Cancellation Brawlers shut them down in seconds. Those are the broken ones, lol.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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I wouldn't worry about selling equipment (unless you really want to). The game seems to have all the equipment I collected. Here's a 6 minute video of me scrolling through them. It does seem I have some duplicates. Never noticed them since I just use whatever gives the best stat boast.
So I guess selling the duplicate Super Brawn Badge was redundant after all.
 

DunnoBro

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Homepass is very easy to set up. It's an outside system, yes, but it's very much a part of the metagame.

Grinding hearts is pretty easy, actually. Make an Upperdash Arm with MDA+4 FHB+6 and such then fight lvl 1 CPUs with their HP set to 10% and the timer to a minute. Bust out Trade-off and Energy Charge and knock some heads on Small Arena. 30k a match, I think?

Shot Cancellation Brawlers shut them down in seconds. Those are the broken ones, lol.
Homepass wasn't available for KI:U until long after it came out though, right? But yea, grinding hearts isn't too hard, but you do gotta put in the effort to make that upperdash.

Oh? I wondered why I had so much fun with my brawlers. SC+1 SR+3 Walking Speed +4 FHB+6 Dash Ch.Shot -2
I had one version with 5 mods and a lot of range stars, and another with lowish melee stars but melee combo+4(forgot the amount but i designed to barely KO in one combo at 226 damage). The range version was more fun/mindless but the melee version was much more consistent and was essentially unbeatable in 1v1 if you were paying attention.

I wish KI:U had a better constructed online mode. I feel like it could've had some staying power if it wasn't hell coordinating decent matches.

Why would you ever use a normal defensive item (with no effect) when this is available? This is why I fear the total number of viable sets may be fairly small.
Time's escaped me trying to reply to this so I'll address the other points later, but there being better/worse abilities is not inherently a problem nor is it centralizing. (Though the fear of actually viable sets being small is totally understandable, but there's a lot of effects with good abilities. Let's not compare them to the ones with no effects and crappy effects please)
 

PushDustIn

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Let's find out if it'll be really unbalanced by running some tournaments. We won't know if it is until we do. Anything we say before we do that is pure, useless conjecture. I don't think "it might be bad" is a good enough reason not to explore this part of the game.

What I'm trying to do is persuade everyone to at least be willing to give equipment a chance. As it stands right now, the majority of people dismiss it out of hand because grinding for good equipment sucks, and some of the equipment/stat effects look scary in theory, or in some training mode video against a non-customized AI character. So the first big tournament says "we'll allow 4 stages and custom moves, but no equipment." And now every other tournament is following that ruleset without doing any research of their own on whether that is what's best for the game and the meta.

Edit: PushDustin, after 32+ hours of grinding, exactly how good are the equipment sets that you use? Can you post some examples?

I have over 100 hours of Single Player, and I have not received all the effects (missing 7), nor the hats (missing 5). I posted a 6 minute video of me going through the 1,500 pieces of equipment I have. The equipment list/description in OP is the final list, it was ripped from the ROM data. I have the Japanese translation of the list here too. The equipment might be dependent on who you are playing as, so recently I've been trying to do Classic 9.0 runs with various characters. I have Maximum Glvoes with give me +83 Attack, -42 defense which seems to be one of my best pure stat items. I have a Master Jacket which gives me +83 defense, -45 speed. And High Quality Boots which give me +71 speed and -37 attack.

There is one potential saving grace. In the game files, we found an unused icon in the Internet section. Using the game's text dump, we are able to match the potential icon to text. It's unknown if it's scrapped content, or something that will be added in future updates. The new online mode is titled "Share" and it allows you to share snapshots and custom Mii Fighters. Meaning that you can download other people's equipment. This will lower the entry bar for tournaments, and allow players to have equal access to the best equipment.
 

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The new online mode is titled "Share" and it allows you to share snapshots and custom Mii Fighters. Meaning that you can download other people's equipment. This will lower the entry bar for tournaments, and allow players to have equal access to the best equipment.
Sweet Sakurai's Saggers. I wonder if there will be similar functions on the wii u version? That'd be a great way to get friends over for kids. (Or shy manchildren like me) "Hey, you're looking for X? I have X! Come on over and let's play!"

One thing I think worth noting is likely years from now (or if datel puts in the work for us now) when Smash 4 has become stale, I think editing the equipment will be an easy way to deliver a P:M like experience.

On that note, is there any equipment that effects hitstun/tumble?

Edit: Also I'm starting to become convinced equipment dropped in classic are based off you who beat. Star fox series gives me lasers most often, little mac gives me brawn badges, fire emblem gives me swords. It's not definite and I could just have a confirmation bias now that I'm looking for it, but I'd like input if possible.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Has there been any tests done on how the defense boosting equipment works? I'm not sure if it makes the fighter heavier, or just reduces attack knockback.
 

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On that note, is there any equipment that effects hitstun/tumble?

Edit: Also I'm starting to become convinced equipment dropped in classic are based off you who beat. Star fox series gives me lasers most often, little mac gives me brawn badges, fire emblem gives me swords. It's not definite and I could just have a confirmation bias now that I'm looking for it, but I'd like input if possible.
Here are some interesting effects:

ENGLISH: ENGLISH DESCRIPTION: JAPANESE: JAPANESE DESCRIPTION:
No-flinch charged smashes- You cannot be launched by standard attacks when charging a smash attack.がまん我慢のスマッシュホールドスマッシュ攻撃をためている時 相手の弱いき攻撃を受けてもふっとばなくなる

Improved braking ability- Stop on a dime even when dashing.ブレーキ強化地上で移動した時にすべりにくくなる

Reduced landing impact- Start moving again more quickly after landing.着地硬直ダウン地面に着地した後、 すぐに動けるようになる

Improved air attacks- 1.15x attack power while airborne. 空中攻撃アップく空中で出すワザの 攻撃力が1.15倍になる

Improved launch ability- 1.3x attack power when launching enemies upward.打上げ上手う上方向にふっとばすワザの 攻撃力が1.3倍になる

Explosive perfect shield - Shield against an attack with perfect timing to create an explosion.ジャストシール爆発き攻撃に対してタイミングよくシールドすると 爆発で周りにダメージを与えられる

Improved escapability- Escape more easily from being grabbed, stunned, etc.クイック脱出つかまれている時、しびれている時など、 動けない状態からぬけだしやすくなる

KOs heal damage- Recover damage when you KO an enemy.撃墜回復相手を撃墜すると蓄積ダメージが回復する

Increased lateral air movement- 1.25x lateral air movement speed.空中横速度アップ空中で横に動くスピードが1.25倍になる

Increased run speed- 1.3x running speed.走行速度アップ走るスピードが1.3倍になる

Skating traction - 1.5x movement speed on land, but watch that you don't slip!スケーター地上で移動した時にすべりやすくなるが、 歩く・走るスピードが1.5倍になる

Improved ground jumps- 1.3x jump height from the ground.地上ジャンプ強化地上からのジャンプの高さが1.3倍になる

Weakened ground jumps - 0.7x jump height from the ground.地上ジャンプ弱化地上からのジャンプの高さが0.7倍になる


Yeah, the equipment drops depend on who is in the battle. When I fight Olimar seem to have a higher chance of getting Pikmin related items. I asked the guy who did the ROM text dump if he could give more information about custom drops, but he said he wasn't going to investigate it. Hopefully we can get more information (either through testing or by looking at the code).

Has there been any tests done on how the defense boosting equipment works? I'm not sure if it makes the fighter heavier, or just reduces attack knockback.
Tell me how to test it, and I will.
 
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DunnoBro

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Improved launch ability1.3x attack power when launching enemies upward.う打ちあ上げじょうず上手うえほうこう上方向にふっとばすワザの こうげきりょく攻撃力が1.3ばい倍になる
Launch = Hitstun period? Other than that it doesn't look like anything touches on it except making it even less :/

But yea, been paying closer attention and there's no way it isn't effected. Wii fit trainer was the only one to give me picky eater items in three separate runs for example. And if i got equipment, generally it was equipment that or my character could use.

I'd be willing to bet every character has an ability they're likely to give.

I think it might be worth it to make a thread directory for people to test/compose to find out who's most likely to give what, and who they got their more rare/useful items with.

Some theories on who gives what:

Air Pushover/Pinata, Sprinter: Little Mac:
Food Lover: Wario, Dedede, Kirby, Yoshi, maybe all of them.
Meanderer: Ganondorf
Vampire: MK
Trade-off, Glides: Kid Icarus characters
Item Xer: Diddy, Peach
No Flinch Smasher: Bowser, Little Mac, whoever else has this

I also notice I get some overlap in abilities when I just use one character, but mostly in equipment gained. Maybe character used = equipment, and character fought = ability?

Edit: It might have to do more with their series icon. Ganon sure has given me a lot of swords, unless Sakurai is making some sick joke i hope it's just the Zelda series in general.

I'll test all this more in-depth later and actually record everything and not just point out the times it does happen to myself. At work right now.
 
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PushDustIn

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I think you might be on to something with your theory about equipment and characters. But I think the type of item you receive is dependent upon the character you fight, and the effect is random.

I'm playing in Japanese, so I'm guessing on the names. I included the Japanese/English list I made as a reference below.

Here's some data (All on 9.0, and all as Pac-Man to control. Please note, I only included the special effects for Classic as I received a ton of equipment):

Versus R.O.B and Charizard (As Pac-Man with Mario) Improved Dodge Ability Booster

Versus Bowser Jr: Weakened Shield Regeneration Jacket

Versus Ness: Ray Gun Equipped Hat

Versus Mega-Man: Improved Attack After Eating Helmet

Versus Wario: The Extended Respawn Invincibility Overalls

Versus Yoshi: Easier edge grabs Gloves

Versus Metal Yoshi: Power Up Eating Egg

Versus Mii Fighters: Blue Path: Improved Air Defense Speed Badge, Stronger Item Throws Hammer

Versus Master Core: Fire Flower Overalls

Smash Run (As Pac-Man)

(Versus 3 Peaches, in Army Battle): Arm Canon, Double Dash Mushroom, High Quality Coat [No Special Effects]

Stronger item throws1.5x attack power to thrown items.アイテム投げアップアイテムを投げてぶつけた時の 攻撃力が1.5倍になる

Ray Gun equippedStart battles with a Ray Gun. Blast your foes with lasers!レイガンを持ちこ込む最初から「レイガン」を持っている スピードの弾を発射できる


Improved air defense0.75x damage received when in midair.空中防御アップ空中にいる時、 受けるダメージが0.75倍になる


Improved dodge abilityGives a little extra time to dodge an enemy attack.らくらく回避相手の攻撃を、 緊急回避でかわしやすくなる


Fire Flower equippedStart battles with a Fire Flower. Roast your enemies!ファイアフラワーを持ち込む最初から「ファイアフラワー」を持っている 目の前に炎をまいて、続けて攻撃できる

Extended respawn invincibilityInvincibility will last three times as long after being KO'd.ミス後無敵のばしミスして復活した後の、 無敵時間が3倍になる

Power up after eatingAttack, defense, and speed rise gradually for 15 seconds after eating food.たべるといろいろアップたべものをたべると、15秒間 攻撃・防御・移動スピードがすこ少しずつ上がる
Improved attack after eating1.4x attack power for 15 seconds after eating food.たべると攻撃アップたべものをたべると、 15秒間ワザの攻撃力が1.4倍になる


Weakened shield regenerationRecharge your shield more slowly.シールド回復ダウンシールドの耐久力が回復しにくくなる

Easier edge grabsIncreased range for grabbing stage edges.ガケつかまりやすしガケからは離れていても、 ガケつかまりになる範囲が広くなる

Need some sleep now, I can do some more testing tomorrow.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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But how do I test weight?
Test to see how quickly a fighter can be KO'd by certain attacks. Compare the default to the one with the defense boosts to figure out the resilience difference. It has been revealed that if Shulk has a +200 defense boost, and is in custom Shield Stance mode, he can survive Bowser's forward tilt until his damage starts going over 400%.
 

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Up Smash (Non-charged) With Ike (Non-custom):

Jigglypuff (+200 attack, -112 defense): 59%
Jigglypuff: 85%
Jigglypuff (+200 speed, -101 attack): 85%
Jigglypuff (+194 defense, -116 speed): 130%

It does seem like defense effects weight.
 
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