Embracing Wave-Dashing

[Paquito]

It's about time Project M fully embraced Wave-Dashing, and simplified the control scheme for it. Pressing the control stick forward or back within X milliseconds of initiating a short-hop should trigger a wave-dash, with the angle of the control stick allowing for short vs long wave-dashes.

Wave-Dashing was an unintended physics quirk from Melee that the creator decided to keep in the game, thinking it wouldn't have a significant impact on the game. He was wrong, it made a huge, positive, impact on the game. He got irrationally upset that it raised the skill ceiling of the game so high, and removed it from subsequent releases.

If Project M recognizes it as a legitimate movement option, why are we maintaining the awkward way of triggering it from Melee?

 

[Bleck]

'cause Melee

 

[Paquito]

'cause Melee

It's time to break-free. Project M is the definitive competitive version of Smash.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

That actually seems like it would be even less intuitive than the way it currently works. Also, how would this work with wavelanding?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

oh god the why don't we make a wavedash button question again

because it would be terrible game design. wavedashing isn't even an artificial skill barrier and even if it was I could still make a perfectly valid argument as to why it should stay the way it is

 

[Smearglangelo]

I think you give Wave-Dashing far too much credit for raising the skill ceiling. Melee's depth was brought out by it's unique physics, advanced techniques, and the players who experimented with the game to find better ways to play.

And what's wrong with the current way to Wave-Dash? The difficulty makes it more rewarding when you learn how to do it properly.

 

[Paquito]

That actually seems like it would be even less intuitive than the way it currently works. Also, how would this work with wavelanding?

There's no reason to change the physics engine. Air-dodging into the ground could still trigger a wave-dash/land.

 

[Paquito]

because it would be terrible game design. wavedashing isn't even an artificial skill barrier and even if it was I could still make a perfectly valid argument as to why it should stay the way it is

shoot

 

[Paquito]

And what's wrong with the current way to Wave-Dash? The difficulty makes it more rewarding when you learn how to do it properly.

As a game-designer, you want to avoid difficulty that feels arbitrary. Removing C-stick smash attacks would make it harder to execute quick smash attacks, but adding difficulty there wouldn't necessarily be a good thing.

 

[Smearglangelo]

As a game-designer, you want to avoid difficulty that feels arbitrary. Removing C-stick smash attacks would make it harder to execute quick smash attacks, but adding difficulty there wouldn't necessarily be a good thing.

You make a good point, but we're talking about making the Wave-Dash simpler not making it more complex.

How do you propose it be simplified?

 

[Paquito]

You make a good point, but we're talking about making the Wave-Dash simpler not making it more complex.

I know. Assume wave-dashing were already simplified, and someone suggested making it harder to wave-dash by switching to the method we use now. Same logic applies.

How do you propose it be simplified?

Pressing the control stick forward or back within X milliseconds of initiating a short-hop should trigger a wave-dash, with the angle of the control stick allowing for short vs long wave-dashes.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Pressing the control stick forward or back within X milliseconds of initiating a short-hop should trigger a wave-dash, with the angle of the control stick allowing for short vs long wave-dashes.

That doesn't simplify anything. It sounds like it does, but all you're doing there is taking away the ability to short hop and move early on it in.

 

[Smearglangelo]

I know. Assume wave-dashing were already simplified, and someone suggested making it harder to wave-dash by switching to the method we use now. Same logic applies.

It's about time Project M fully embraced Wave-Dashing, and simplified the control scheme for it. Pressing the control stick forward or back within X milliseconds of initiating a short-hop should trigger a wave-dash, with the angle of the control stick allowing for short vs long wave-dashes.

Sorry, I must be tired. Please bare with me.

Wave-Dashing seems like it's better as a more complex command so I don't accidentally activate it when I'm in an difficult situation.

 

[F. Blue]

A wavedash button would be fine, if it's essentially a macro for Y->wait x jumpsquat frames->R. You'd still input the angle yourself, and obviously it wouldn't replace the traditional method.

Macros are pretty common in fighting games, and there's no real advantage to an action requiring two buttons instead of one. The reason wavedashing is so hard is because of the imprecise analog triggers, but without that holding us back, we could have optimal control of the same technique without developing carpal tunnel, or requiring hours of training just to learn basic movement.

The method you suggested is already taken by another technique, 'reverse areal rush' - allows you to jump facing the direction you were running.

 

[Paquito]

That doesn't simplify anything. It sounds like it does, but all you're doing there is taking away the ability to short hop and move early on it in.

The method you suggested is already taken by another technique, 'reverse areal rush' - allows you to jump facing the direction you were running.

Tilting the control stick up can trigger a jump, an up-smash, and an up attack, but the game can differentiate between those three actions based on context like the speed the control stick is moved, the degree to which it's moved, etc. There's no reason why this wave-dashing scheme couldn't co-exist with directional short-hopping.

Maybe tilting the control stick under the X axis (down-right / down-left) triggers the wave dash, where as on or above the X axis will apply directional influence to your hop. Timing can make a difference here too. If there are "jump" frames where directional influence doesn't yet apply, those could be the frames where a directional press will trigger a wave-dash.

I like the former over the latter, but the point is there are ways to simplify the control scheme for wave-dashing without sacrificing current functionality.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

A wavedash button would be fine, if it's essentially a macro for Y->wait x jumpsquat frames->R. You'd still input the angle yourself, and obviously it wouldn't replace the traditional method.

Macros are pretty common in fighting games, and there's no real advantage to an action requiring two buttons instead of one. The reason wavedashing is so hard is because of the imprecise analog triggers, but without that holding us back, we could have optimal control of the same technique without developing carpal tunnel, or requiring hours of training just to learn basic movement.

The method you suggested is already taken by another technique, 'reverse areal rush' - allows you to jump facing the direction you were running.

How many fighting games allow macro commands for simplifying techniques that a player doesn't want to take the time to learn/do? I can't think of any off the top of my head that are played at a high level.

 

[Paquito]

A wavedash button would be fine, if it's essentially a macro for Y->wait x jumpsquat frames->R. You'd still input the angle yourself, and obviously it wouldn't replace the traditional method.

This would work too. There are two jump buttons...

 

[Paquito]

How many fighting games allow macro commands for simplifying techniques that a player doesn't want to take the time to learn/do? I can't think of any off the top of my head that are played at a high level.

Two points:

1) One of the things that makes Smash a particularly well designed game is that it has a high skill ceiling while maintaining a really low learning curve. You don't have to memorize button combinations specific to a character to know how to basically play them. Smash attacks, ground attacks, air attacks, and special moves all use the same buttons for every character. The skill comes from understanding the differences between characters, and mastering the timing of when to use certain techniques.

2) There's nothing wrong with having complicated techniques in a game, but those techniques shouldn't be arbitrarily complicated. If wave-dashing was intentionally designed into Melee, do you really think this would have been the button combination they would have settled on?

 

[1FD]

Wavedashing is really easy to input...
And it makes sense within the mechanics of the game...
justsayin

 

[Paquito]

Wavedashing is really easy to input...

"Hey, I can wave-dash!"
*accidentally short hop/dash lands three times before doing a proper wave-dash*
"See?? I did it!"

 

[Rhubarbo]

If we were building a competitive Smash game from the ground up, there'd be no questions against wavedashing getting replaced. I think wavedashing would ideally be split between quick-stepping while done on the ground and sliding when done from the air into the ground. However, we're dealing with a recreation of Melee, here. The PMDT not only have to appease fans by making the game very similar to it's source material, they also have to worry about rejection and failure over venturous experimentation. If the PMDT tried to overhaul wavedashing, they'd immediately irk the Melee faithful. If the PMDT failed at overhauling wavedashing, they would lose faith from their other fans. One guaranteed strike and one likely miss over fixing a placid issue isn't worth the risk.

A macro for wavedashing could be useful for beginners. I think this macro would best belong to either L or R, as set by the player. If possible, it would be neat for the wavedash to go long in proportion to how hard the corresponding trigger is held.

 

[F. Blue]

Wavedashing is really easy to input...
justsayin

No, it's not.

How many fighting games allow macro commands for simplifying techniques that a player doesn't want to take the time to learn/do? I can't think of any off the top of my head that are played at a high level.

Street Fighter 4: LP+MP+HP is combined into one button 'SP'.

 

[1FD]

You could just have it like basic rolling/spot-dodging, but control stick at an angle.
But I stand by it being easy.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Street Fighter 4: LP+MP+HP is combined into one button 'SP'.

That's a very simplistic macro, but it's not really the same as putting a slightly more nuanced maneuver into a single button.

Simplifying intermediate to advanced techniques to the point of making them single button commands sounds like babying players that aren't willing to take the time to develop muscle memory. Reminds me of Capcom vs SNK 2 EO where you could input special moves with a single button and we all know how seriously that game was taken.

 

[Fortress]

.....but then how would I move back after I jumped..? Or properly control wavedash length..?

>learn to wavedash
>#notthathard

 

[Celestis]

PM has fully embraced Wavedashing..

I think this just falls under the category of, don't fix what isn't broken.
This method would make wavedashing awkward. And what about air dodging over the ground? This would remove that completely.

 

[Ganreizu]

I don't think making the simple action of wavedashing go from 3 inputs to 1 is truly what it means to "embrace wavedashing".

 

[Strong Badam]

I can't believe you'd go after wavedashing instead of L-canceling lol. One mechanic is full of depth and simplifying it would ruin that depth (how would you waveland with your suggestion, for example??), the other is literally an arbitrary button press.

 

[Paquito]

Jebus. People, try reading through the thread before you respond.

(how would you waveland with your suggestion, for example??)

This method would make wavedashing awkward. And what about air dodging over the ground? This would remove that completely.

Already answered this:

There's no reason to change the physics engine. Air-dodging into the ground could still trigger a wave-dash/land.

 

[Strong Badam]

Okay how would you do slight wavedashes? You know a wavedash isn't just a simple "left, right, or in place" decision, right? Depending on your control stick position it goes different distances.
Your suggestion also removes the option of drifting during the early part of a jump.

 

[Paquito]

Okay how would you do slight wavedashes? You know a wavedash isn't just a simple "left, right, or in place" decision, right? Depending on your control stick position it goes different distances.

Pressing the control stick forward or back within X milliseconds of initiating a short-hop should trigger a wave-dash, with the angle of the control stick allowing for short vs long wave-dashes.

*****

Your suggestion also removes the option of drifting during the early part of a jump.

There's no reason to change the physics engine. Air-dodging into the ground could still trigger a wave-dash/land.

In other-words, no one is suggesting that the current method of wave-dashing should be removed.

 

[Strong Badam]

Your suggestion also removes the option of drifting during the early part of a jump.

This part hasn't been addressed yet.

 

[Paquito]

There's a bunch of players here that are pushing back against the idea because they're proud of the fact that they've mastered the technique, and resent the idea that future players may not have to spend the hours they spent mastering wave-dashing.

Look, I get that there's a lot of satisfaction that comes from working through a barrier that takes your game to the next level. But barriers like this are not what good fighting-game design is about, and it's exactly why the genre as a whole has a niche following.

Everyone should check out this "Extra Credits" video: The Fighting Game Problem - How to Teach Complicated Mechanics

tl;dw; The thing high-level players appreciate about good fighting games is not a mastery of button combinations, they appreciate the mind games, the mental chess-match between the combatants. Complicated button combinations is a problem that the genre struggles with, a problem that creates a high barrier of entry.

As I said up-thread, one of the best qualities of the Smash series is that it deals with this problem in a really elegant way:

One of the things that makes Smash a particularly well designed game is that it has a high skill ceiling while maintaining a really low learning curve. You don't have to memorize button combinations specific to a character to know how to basically play them. Smash attacks, ground attacks, air attacks, and special moves all use the same buttons for every character. The skill comes from understanding the differences between characters, and mastering the timing of when to use certain techniques.

 

[Paquito]

This part hasn't been addressed yet.

How do you define "drifting during the early part of a jump"?

 

[Strong Badam]

It refers to drifting in the air (you know how when you hold right or left in the air you move horizontally? yeah, drifting) as your character rises. Characters like Jigglypuff and Wario make use of this weaving to great effect and it's a huge part of their game, but every character uses it in some capacity.

 

[Paquito]

It refers to drifting in the air (you know how when you hold right or left in the air you move horizontally? yeah, drifting) as your character rises. Characters like Jigglypuff and Wario make use of this weaving to great effect and it's a huge part of their game, but every character uses it in some capacity.

Ah. See below.

Tilting the control stick up can trigger a jump, an up-smash, and an up attack, but the game can differentiate between those three actions based on context like the speed the control stick is moved, the degree to which it's moved, etc. There's no reason why this wave-dashing scheme couldn't co-exist with directional short-hopping.

Maybe tilting the control stick under the X axis (down-right / down-left) triggers the wave dash, where as on or above the X axis will apply directional influence to your hop. Timing can make a difference here too. If there are "jump" frames where directional influence doesn't yet apply, those could be the frames where a directional press will trigger a wave-dash.

I like the former over the latter, but the point is there are ways to simplify the control scheme for wave-dashing without sacrificing current functionality.

 

[Strong Badam]

What if some players do it underneath the x-axis to have slighter drift? This change would alienate the way they do things and be unintuitive.

 

[Paquito]

What if some players do it underneath the x-axis to have slighter drift? This change would alienate the way they do things and be unintuitive.

Why can't the degree of the drift be determined by the degree to which you push the control stick left or right? If you're tilting the control stick towards the ground during the "crouch" part of the jump frames, that implies you want to drift along the ground. i.e. wave-dash.

 

[Strong Badam]

Not if you've been able to do it that way for literally 15 years.

 

[Zero Kirby]

Why can't the degree of the drift be determined by the degree to which you push the control stick left or right? If you're tilting the control stick towards the ground during the "crouch" part of the jump frames, that implies you want to drift along the ground. i.e. wave-dash.

What if I just like tilting the Control Stick that way because it feels more natural

I honestly don't see a problem with Wavedashing the way it is, and I don't even really do it that much. Honestly the idea you've come up with sounds less intuitive than anything else. I fear I might wind up accidentally wavedashing which isn't as useful as it sounds