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Eliminating Random Luck

CT Chia

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I've contemplated this myself but have also had a lot of people request this to me personally.

Main characters this effects: DDD, Peach

The Peach and DDD mains do not depend on Gordos and Bombs. But they can completely changea match and either one can kill unexpectedly at extremely low percents. They are very rare and can completely change the situation.

What if we got rid of them. We are not making the character worse as neither character depends, counts on, or expects these luck objects.

The beam sword also applies to peach along with bomb.

Other things to think about:
Stitch Turnips with Peach - while i dont think they should be taken out, i think they should be weakened a bit
GaW 9 hammer. the 9 is part of the attack. taking it out would mean the hammer goes 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8.... not 9 lol
what if we just weaken it? its pretty destructive
 
D

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in case of DDD I agree, but peach already has many different turnips. maybe take the bomb out but leave the sword and stitchface.

in the case of GaW, he has equal chance to get any number (if I'm not mistaken) so taking out the nine would be weaken his game a lot.
 

Ulevo

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take the bomb out but leave the sword
This makes no logical sense at all.

in the case of GaW, he has equal chance to get any number (if I'm not mistaken) so taking out the nine would be weaken his game a lot.
He doesn't have an equal chance entirely. Once a number has been used, the Judgement Hammer needs to be used two more times before that same number can reappear. Also, I believe G&W needs to use the hammer two or three times before he can have a 9 appear. That last comment I am not entirely sure of. Go to the G&W boards if you're interested, they explain how the attack works.

There is also Luigis Green Missile that has to be considered as well. As well as Ivysaurs Razor Leaf, and Snakes Mortar. Then you get in to tripping induced moves.

Lets also not forget stages.

If you want to intelligent about this, you would have to establish a concise opinion on what is justified to be removed, otherwise you're simply removing luck factors for the sake of personal dislike.

For example, see above.
 

goodoldganon

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All sports and competitive games have some random luck. It can be unfortunate when it happens, but it doesn't need to be discredited. Don't remove random luck
 

CT Chia

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GaW9 - i like giza's opinion

ulevo - GaW can get a 9 as the first hammer in a match. some have speculated that it almost works like move deteriation where the less u use it, the more likely u can get a 9. idk if this is proven, but I know velocity used to work with it that way a lot and it seemed to work

green missile - its not a devestating kill move, and helps with recovery more than kill power. this doesnt completely change a game like the other things i mentioned

the difference between these few choice things are is that they are compeltely random with no warning and can completely change a game around 100%. move induced tripping isn't something that will get you killed at ridiculously low percents, all characters have access to it, and it can be avoided by dodging certain moves while on the ground.

idk what razor leaf and mortar have to do about it

as for stages, no stage has an unexpected hazard that can kill at very low percent. the closest one would be port town, and guess what, one of the reasons its banned is because of that. most stage hazards do not kill until high percent, and you are given fair warning like anything on halberd, the siren on frigate, etc.

its clear that the bomb sword and gordo are completely different to stages, move induced tripping, and things like the green missile. it really has nothing to do with personal dislike. the reason im bringing this up in its own thread because iv gotten requests from multiple people about it, and the logic behind it does hold its own i believe.
 

leafgreen386

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I actually would like to see random tripping on moves removed. At least on moves that don't already have a very high chance to trip. When these small percentage moves trip someone, it is really pure luck, and not something either player was counting on when the move was executed. You're going to be using the move specifically for the purpose of hitting them, not for tripping them. We shouldn't have these unnecessary and in many cases unwanted random effects in the game.

If all stages could be made to have a set pattern, I think that would actually be a very good thing. No more random tilting on lylat. No more random "ronnie" saves on yoshi's island. Etc etc. Luck is not a good thing in a competitive setting, except when it's extremely negligible (I don't think anyone has ever particularly cared that peach's turnips do different damage, but they care quite a bit when they get hit by a stitchface), although I still wouldn't call that "good;" it's just exactly as I said... negligible.

If we could rework attacks to still function well (if not more effectively due to the greater control) while limiting their randomness then I think it should be done. Randomness at its core is bad for competition, and finding ways to effectively limit it without hurting anything in the process should be something we try to strive for.
 

Ulevo

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green missile - its not a devestating kill move, and helps with recovery more than kill power. this doesnt completely change a game like the other things i mentioned
You obviously have no experience with misfires. Misfires can easily kill you in unexpected circumstances at low percents. This is no different than Gordos from Dedede. Also, a misfire can mean the difference between Luigi recovering from a gimp, and dying from a gimp, which inherently gives Luigi an advantage for no reason.

the difference between these few choice things are is that they are compeltely random with no warning and can completely change a game around 100%. move induced tripping isn't something that will get you killed at ridiculously low percents, all characters have access to it, and it can be avoided by dodging certain moves while on the ground.
I am more or less bringing it up for the sake of consistency. I myself think tripping induced moves are fine.

idk what razor leaf and mortar have to do about it
Ivysaurs Razor Leaf trajectory is random, and can not be influenced when it is used. I've had instances where it has been used on the ground and has gone too high, resulting in the opponent approaching me and continuing a follow up.

Snakes Mortar Missiles also have random trajectories, and move from one side to the other. If you stand to the edge and perform an USmash consistently, you will notice some of the missiles fall below the stage while some blow up on stage. This can effect how effectively Snake edge guards.

as for stages, no stage has an unexpected hazard that can kill at very low percent.
Green Greens with the bombs.

Pirate Ship with the bombs, and the catapult (which kills at 0% now by the way).

Halberd with the Laser. I say the laser because it can prevent characters from returning to the stage in circumstances and result in unfair kills, while as the claw doesn't kill and and the bomb has a large start up and warning, and doesn't effect stage returns. In either case, they still disrupt matches.

Norfair with... everything.

Pictochat has a few transformations that kill that appear very randomly.

I mean, that is more than enough. I'm likely forgetting some.

the closest one would be port town, and guess what, one of the reasons its banned is because of that. most stage hazards do not kill until high percent, and you are given fair warning like anything on halberd, the siren on frigate, etc.
I just proved you false. And fair warning is irrelevant if you cannot do anything about it.

its clear that the bomb sword and gordo are completely different to stages, move induced tripping, and things like the green missile.
Of course they're different. They are still random events that disrupt the match, or even the out come of the match as a result. The problem at hand is still relevant.

it really has nothing to do with personal dislike. the reason im bringing this up in its own thread because iv gotten requests from multiple people about it, and the logic behind it does hold its own i believe.
I am not against removing specific aspects of random events that can significantly effect the out come of the match, to an extent and with certain criteria, however... You need to be consistent. Saying you'll remove Gordos but not the Green Missile misfire is complete bias, and you need to be consistent about the criteria you're using as to why you are removing these things.

I don't even know why I am ranting about this though. Pretty much most people in here just give their 2 ¢ without logical reason anyway.
 

goodoldganon

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No one seems to agree with me so Ill say it again. Every competitive game and sport has some random features to it and I think one way to tell who the really good players are is to see how they react to said randomness. When I face Snake and a mortar makes it over the edge, I readjust my jumps accordingly. Same with approaching Ivy's Razor Leafs. A combination of jumping and shielding to get through.

If you lose to a G and W that combo'd into a 9, well I say tough luck. Thems the breaks. How do you think the Cardinals felt when they only lost the Superbowl because of that interception at the end of the first half?

On the other end, look at it from someone elses standpoint. I know this might be shocking but their are plenty of people that like the randomness. I know our goal is to develop a competitive fighter, but it should still be about fun. I know, it's probably the scrubiest way of thinking, but it still needs to be considered. There are plenty of people who enjoy the casual party game of Smash and the deep competitive side too. If we want to community to grow we shouldn't alienate that group.

Hell, I showed Brawl+ to a casual party gamer and he loved it and showed it to his roommates who all loved the new deeper gameplay.
 

kupo15

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How do you think the Cardinals felt when they only lost the Superbowl because of that interception at the end of the first half?
Tough luck as in he made a bad call or something. Somehow, the opponent played better thus making the play not work. Maybe there was some luck involved in them choosing the right counter play, but you are arguing to two different form of luck.

You can decide to attempt a certain strategy in smash and it happens to domino into this great combo because of the way the percent turned out or the positioning on the field, but that is because you took a chance to do something you knew would happen and had some control over.

But when you have a move that does random things that you have no control over and you can't successfully plan for what will happen, that is bad and that is the topic at hand. How would you feel if links boomerang had random trajectories? If you try to edge guard with it and it goes the wrong direction and you lose the match because of it, would you chalk that up to "oh darn, I had bad luck. Everything is ok." I would hope not. When the game takes control away from the player, that is bad. The only thing that should take control away from you is the opponent. The game should never interfere with how you control your character. This is the type of random luck that is bad
On the other end, look at it from someone elses standpoint. I know this might be shocking but their are plenty of people that like the randomness. I know our goal is to develop a competitive fighter, but it should still be about fun. I know, it's probably the scrubiest way of thinking, but it still needs to be considered. There are plenty of people who enjoy the casual party game of Smash and the deep competitive side too. If we want to community to grow we shouldn't alienate that group.

Hell, I showed Brawl+ to a casual party gamer and he loved it and showed it to his roommates who all loved the new deeper gameplay.
No. Competitive players first, scrubs, second. You are still under the Sakuarai development process with brawl+ when we are trying to break away from than. "Fun" for us comes from a deep, solid competitive fighting game with working mechanics, not random luck that happens to no go our way. You could actually turn that statement into a why we should keep tripping because it sounds like you want to keep mechanics that behave like tripping which are anti competitive by nature and is something that we are shunning. That is not where competitive players get their "fun" from.


So no. I do not agree with your mentality on this topic
 

goodoldganon

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Fair enough, my Cardinals example wasn't the best, I just wanted to use that play since it was so awesome. :)

On the Link example, if it had random trajectories, I certainly wouldn't use it for edgeguarding. I only use Snake's mortar for edgeguarding because I Mortar-slide to the ledge.

Tripping is different in this case because it affects nearly everything. It affects movement at it's very core. When I use the hammer I full well know the risks involved. I could get a 1 and do damage to myself or I could get a 9 and pay out big. I know full well that if D3 decided to set up shop on the other side of the stage some minions are coming my way. I anticipate the worst and play as if everyone he throws could be a gordo. When I pick turnips with Peach I know that there is a chance I can get stitches and I plan out what I want to do if I get him. My point is, yes they are random, but I still know what move I'm doing and what might come from it.

I tried to come up with two video game examples:

Think about critical hits in Pokemon matches. Critical hits can completely switch the momentum of a battle. Tank Pokemon can fall quick when the opponent gets a critical hit? Does it suck when it happens to me? Ya but I know full well that my Blissy (wasn't she a good tank pokemon?) can fall to a critical. I should have healed her earlier. It's not like critical hits is some foreign mechanic.

What about in World of Warcraft with proc of trinkets and skills? When I PvP on my DeathKnight I usually just stay Frost Spec and Frost Death Knights have this talent: http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59057 As you can see, it's kind of random but I'm able to react to it when it procs and use it to my advantage. When facing a Blood DeathKnight there is a visual cue on the skill http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49532 and when I see it I know exactly what he can do soon.

Basically all I'm saying is randomness can suck, but I could never call it truly random. I repeat, one way to separate the great players is how they can react to randomness.
 

kupo15

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On the Link example, if it had random trajectories, I certainly wouldn't use it for edgeguarding. I only use Snake's mortar for edgeguarding because I Mortar-slide to the ledge.
So you are saying that arbitrary hurdles like this is ok? I would go on but you probably won't understand if you didn't get the point I was trying to make in my last post
 

goodoldganon

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So you are saying that arbitrary hurdles like this is ok? I would go on but you probably won't understand if you didn't get the point I was trying to make in my last post
I must have. Sorry. :(

My point was, the only reason I 'use' Snake's Mortar to edge guard is because I'm sliding over there because Mortar Sliding is the best way to cross a stage quickly. If the Mortar goes over the edge I can adjust my edgeguarding accordingly, but I don't rely on it. Either way I gotta go do some homework.

EDIT: OH, I get your point now.

I'm always outnumbered on these changes, but I do have to say this: If (and it sounds like when) we remove randomness we should still keep these things in some way. What I mean is Peach should still be able to pull stitches somehow, D3 should still be able to throw Gordos, G and W should have some control over his 9, although obviously weaker, and Luigi should have some way to time misfires.
 

leafgreen386

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Ahahahaha. You did not just bring up pokemon, did you? Yeah, um... I'm not sure you realize what you're getting yourself into.

Many of you probably already know this, or could at least have inferred it, but I used to be a competitive pokemon player. Luck is a huge part of that game. Ranging from critical hits (6.25% chance to do double damage on any move that hits), to additional status effects on some moves (most around 10%), to not all moves being 100% accurate (some of the biggest moves in competitive play only have 85% or 90% accuracy, despite players typically preferring to use 100% accurate moves when possible), right down to all moves dealing random amounts of damage (the end of the damage formula multiplies by a number between 85 and 100 and then divides by 100), not to mention what happens in the event of a speed tie and one pokemon randomly is chosen to go first based on a 50/50 chance. Luck abounds in the game.

You bring up the specific example of someone getting a critical hit against a blissey. In 9 out of 10 situations, if it was a special move, this won't matter. A move that does 80 damage normally to a pokemon that has 714 HP isn't going to be that much more dangerous if it suddenly does 160 damage, especially since healing reaches its maximum effectiveness the moment she gets below 50%, which is around 350 HP. Crits from physical moves will typically OHKO (one-hit-KO) the blissey, because most non-crit physical moves already will 2HKO it. In this case, well, it was a pretty stupid move switching a blissey in on a physical move, but you didn't deserve to lose your blissey to it. You could've easily brought it in on a special attacker later and healed while taking no more damage from it than an extra 14% of your health. Crits also have the ability to completely throw off what would otherwise be very calculated healing routines (ie. hit, hit, heal, hit, hit, heal, hit, hit, heal) which can allow pokemon to take on other pokemon which they normally should not be able to. Luck factors overshadow what would otherwise be smart play in many situations. Even if luck is statistically on your side, there are always the occurrences that can screw up what should have been an amazing play. The game can and does penalize players for playing well, which is ultimately flawed game design.

Pokemon players have accepted luck as part of the game, but there is a reason that pokemon is not nearly as competitive of a game as well... almost any fighter out there that exists (this is ignoring the fact a lot of people still consider the game "kiddy," which if you're referring to the actual games themselves, then I would actually agree with you). The game can be vastly changed in one turn off of completely random chance. One player can be holding the advantage for the entire game before the other gets a lucky critical hit on a key pokemon, opening the previously winning player up for an easy sweep at the hands of the player who by all rights should have lost. The players had no control over this, and the tide of the match shifted not because of player skill, but because of pure luck.

WHY WOULD WE WANT ANYTHING IN THIS GAME THAT COULD POSSIBLY CAUSE SOMETHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE THAT TO HAPPEN?

Even in pokemon, many moves or held items that were believed to unnecessarily increase the luck present in the game were banned. Double team and minimize, which raise the user's evasion, were banned. OHKO moves, such as horn drill or fissure, which had only a 30% chance to land, but were a guaranteed KO against anything if they did connect, were also banned.

A major difference between pokemon and smash, though, is that pokemon doesn't have tournaments with money on the line. In fact, pokemon barely has any tournaments at all. It has ladder rankings, yes, but anyone familiar with a ladder format knows that they reward good play over the long term more than anything else. Random factors just plain do not belong in a game where the standard format is best 2 out of 3, double elimination. It's too easy for random chance to completely alter the results of an entire tournament bracket if it shows up at an inopportune time.

It's not a matter of learning how to "adapt" to a new situation. It's a matter of players being unfairly advantaged or disadvantaged due to a reason besides the inherent character matchup and stage combination. Random effects do not provide a reasonable way to test players' ability to adapt to "new situations," since they rarely affect both players equally.
 

goodoldganon

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I think I barked up the wrong tree...

I'm always outnumbered on these changes, but I do have to say this: If (and it sounds like when) we remove randomness we should still keep these things in some way. What I mean is Peach should still be able to pull stitches somehow, D3 should still be able to throw Gordos, G and W should have some control over his 9, although obviously weaker, and Luigi should have some way to time misfires.

Obviously no one thinks the same way as me, and I'm fine with that. I can openly admit I am a little casual with Smash and I laugh when I get 9'd by a friend. I just don't want to see them totally removed.
 

CT Chia

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Any update on this? Can someone whip up a code that we could use to test in the current codeset we are making? It's been brought up multiple times since this thread by people outside the wbr, and by bum in that latest thread in the wbr.

afterall, we are trying to make a competitive game. random swings of gameplay is not competitive imo

the code should remove:
-Peach having the ability to pull Beam Sword, Mr Saturn, Bob-Omb, Stitch Face Turnip, and "Pokey" Turnip (idk what everyone calls it, but I've heard it referred as this a lot for some reason. It's the 2nd strongest turnip she can pull. If I'm not mistaken all turnips do the same damage and kb except Pokey and Stitch)
-Remove DDD's chance to throw a Gordo. In exchange, change the ratio of Dee-Doo to 3:1. It used to be 35:10:4. So change it from that to 3:1:0. Then make it so DDD's overB is faster, like 1.3x, and have it so he can only throw minions already on the ground with overB and not A. Also, have it so 3 minions can be out at once, not 2.
-Remove Luigi's misfire
-Change GaW's 1 and 9 hammer. Make 1 do 1 damage to the opponent and 0 damage to himself. Have the 9 hammer be a dark effect move with good knockback (nothing near the current 9 hammer), and good power like 20 or so. A dark hammer would be pretty awesome, and a cool fresh addition.
 

CT Chia

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why give him a chance of having it fully charged out of no where? unless u mean change it to uncharged. but then that would mean if u charged it up a bit, and if the chance for misfire triggered, u would get the uncharged overB, without the charge u spent time on. just eliminate the chance trigger and make it so that chance cant happen
 

leafgreen386

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Not to mention that that particular fix would remove the ability to fully charge one manually, since I'm pretty sure that in brawl the misfire is the same as the regularly fully charged missile.

Oh, and can I just say that it is INCREDIBLY STUPID to change GAW's signature hammer move into a dark attack? Weaken it? Fine. But COME ON.
 

CT Chia

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no, misfire and fully charged are not the same. misfire is much better.

lol the dark thing doesnt has to happen, it was a suggestion in the bum thing that i thought was neat. keep it electric but SERIOUSLY tone down its kb lol. whats its current damage? something around 20 is fine imo
 

Alopex

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I don't want to lose my Gordos.

I don't know what information you were quoting when you said DDD players don't rely on them, Chibo, but it's not accurate.

Sure, we can't rely solely on Gordos for kills, that would be ********. But there's a reason we throw out SideBs continuously like madmen. We want that Gordo. It completes us, it makes us happy. It's something we count on happening at least once a match and it's the reason why people are actually scared to just charge in at a DDD throwing out a SideB. No one wants to eat a Gordo.
The Gordo is DDD's version of the Wario Waft or DK Giant Punch: it's a form of mental warfare in the way that it strikes fear into the opponents. I don't want to lose that and neither does any DDD player out there.

Removing the luck factor is a silly reason for such a detrimental nerf. It's not like you can't avoid a Gordo. They're not that fast... at all...

I'd say something for Peach, but I've never mained her, so my opinion would not be accurate or valid enough. I'm certain that if we had someone here who mains Peach like DarkSonic mains Sonic, we'd have a much different argument going on. But I digress... I wants mah Gordos.
 

CT Chia

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there was a big debate for if the gordo should be in or not in the ddd thread in the workshop. i think the conclusion was no gordo. however its practically the least of the random problems
 

Alopex

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I missed that debate, but I made my point here.

Taking out mental warfare and giving us faster minions to "compensate" is kind of a slap in the face.

I propose:
A set order for minion throwing.
1 Dee, 1 Dee, 1 Doo, 1 Dee, 1 Dee, 1 Doo, 1 Dee, 1 Dee, 1 Gordo. Refresh.

A set order removes the random factor in exchange for a "keeping track" factor. A good Dedede player will keep track of what minions he's thrown out and adjust their playstyle according to what's next. This creates a similar system to the Wario Waft in that it'll take a while for the Dedede to have access to the Gordo, but once he does have access he can choose to withhold it.
It would be a strategic choice on behalf of the Dedede player, because if he chooses to withhold the Gorod until the right time, he'll have to forfeit using his SideB for any of his other projectile minions, leaving him without a projectile for as long as he holds on to that Gordo. Meanwhile, like the Waft, you're racking at your opponent's brain as they desperately try to predict when you WILL use the Gordo, so they can counter it.
Unlike with random luck, a mindful opponent will know when the Gordo is next and will be able to prepare themselves for it. With random luck, there is no chance for their preparation.

I think this is a MUCH better way to remove random luck than simply removing a key aspect of the Dedede game. It also brings a new element to Dedede gameplay, one that I see as very fun.

Why take the lazy way out?
 

leafgreen386

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Although the lineup would probably be longer than that before getting the gordo, I could see something like that working very nicely. The only problem is it would encourage minion camping in order to secure that gordo.
 

Alopex

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Not much different from a Wario on Rainbow Cruise, really.

And minion camping isn't as effective as it once was in vBrawl. Brawl+ is much faster and the minions are still slow. Plus their weakness on stages with platforms (like Battlefied) is still retained. Can't say I see an issue, really. Dedede is the most comboable character in the game anyway and will always need to rely on his defensive game to be successful. They'll keep camping anyway, moreso if you give them faster minions. In fact, that Gordo and their attempt to save it up, will actually be a deterrant.
 

CT Chia

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its certainly an interesting idea, if its possible. but if we were to make it possible to completely predict when a gordo goes out, we should perhaps then limit the number of minions on stage to 1. this will help counteract trying to minion camp like lgreen mentioned. but then we have to decide whats better:
-being able to predict gordo and doos, 1 on stage, same speed
-no gordos, slightly increased doo-dee ratio, 3 minions on stage, faster throw speed.

both have their ups and downs. i personally think the 2nd option might be better. you cant rly combine the two as if you were to have the ability of a fast throw, more minions, AND predict gordos, thats a bit too much

either way, DDD can continue to be debated.
does anyone (besides yeroc lol) disagree with removing luck factor from luigi and peach, and modifying 1 and 9 hammers for GaW?
 

Alopex

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Which is why I don't think the minions should be sped at all. Nothing about Dedede's SideB should be changed except the creation of a set appearance order over a random order. I don't see the point in reducing the amount of on-stage minions at all. So what if you can predict the Gordo? The previous two minions will have been Waddle Dees anyway if you follow an order like the one I presented above.

It's very balanced.

You can't have Doos walking around AND have a guaranteed Gordo. Why do you think I made it so that a Gordo is preceeded by 2 Dees? So that if you want to save up that Gordo, you're going to have to do so without a Doo walking around, because you can only have 2 minions out at a time and both Gordo-preceeders are Dees.

Dees walking around while you store up a Gordo is not problematic at all, especially when you remember that as SOON as the Gordo comes out, one of the Dees will vanish since the Gordo is included in the 2 minion count.

Really, like I said, Dedede's will ALWAYS minion camp. Why shouldn't they? They're the most comboable character in the game, they're always going to want to maximize their safety. Also like I said, faster minions will just equal MORE minion camping at higher effectiveness. Storing up a Gordo means no using another projectile. It's a strategic choice and an actual minion camping deterrent, like I've said.

Seriously, I've thought this through, heh.



As for the other ones:
- Luigi it seems like there are more than just Yeroc wanting to keep the misfire. Not the randomness of it, but the misfire itself. Yeroc, kupo, and me too XD. I don't know if a counter system would work in this case or not. I mean, it could. Every... Xth Missile is guaranteed to be a misfire. In order to store that up, you'd need to use the Missile X times, and we all know that the Missile is never used outside of recovery since it's a crap move. They'd be making themselve's easily punishable every time they use it just to get closer to that misfire. High persistent risk, high eventual reward. Dunno.

- Peach. Not sure. The items are probably good to go, but the I don't know about the rare turnips. They're still items that need to be thrown. And that means they can be grabbed with proper timing.
SPEAKING OF WHICH!! Can't we make that easier? The rare turnips (and Diddy's Nanerz) would be much less problematic if the item grabbing window was easier.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
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you've convinced me atleast on DDD changes :)

though im still definitely against misfire lol. it can happen randomly when trying to edgeguard luigi and by chance of luck you can be punished for trying to play offensively (something it seems we have been trying to promote in brawl+). its very easy for a sudden misfire to bust out and stage spike you while your offstage and kill u at ridiculously low percents. and dont say u should tech it lol, its completely unexpected. plus, luigi is freicken beast in this game, like too good. it was one thing for DDD where he needed buffs, but luigi needs to be nerfed if anything. i would rather not have a every X'th overB be a misfire, its too similar to DDD's. i like that uniqueness for DDD.

as for peach it seems like most ppl are ok with the 3 items going. turnips were more split. perhaps just modifying the knockback and damage on stitch (and maybe kb on pokey a lil lower).

i wouldnt change the item catching, its pretty easy as it is. not to say its easy to catch a stitch when peach throws it at u lol, but u can catch items with any aerial, shield, or grab in the air (grab if you don't have a z-air move)
 

Alopex

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 24, 2008
Messages
909
Chibo, like I said, I, at least, don't want the randomness of the misfire to stay. Just the misfire itself, with a counter system similar to the Dedede mechanic I've just presented. Reread that part of my post and see what you think about it.

I used ""Xth" because I have no idea what would be a good, balanced number.
 

CT Chia

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
24,416
Location
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i noticed the counter thing u suggested but was confused how it would work, what do u mean exactly?

another idea i was thinking is that if you wanted to keep it, what if we did this...

when you charge up overB on the ground you eventually get to the point where smoke stops coming out of luigi, im sure everyone knows this funny animation. how about... we add shield canceling to this charge up move while on the ground (not in the air), then if you cancel it when you are fully charged, you go into the flashing state (like samus or dk full on neutral B charge) then next time you use the overB you perform a misfire? then you can charge it up whhile ur opponent is dead, recovering, teams, etc. dont keep ur charge if you cancel it halfway. just have it give u a misfire if you fully charge it then cancel
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
the DDD queue thingy is nice.

on luigi, doing X side B then a misfire is not a very good idea.

I also thought about doing some sort of overcharge thing to do a misfire.
another idea, only be able to misfire (keep the random) when you at least (near)fully charge it and maybe alter the chance to misfire.
 
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