Education Systems

[KevinM]

Well it started to show its head that a fair number of people in the Proom (myself included within the group) have many different opinions about the education system in America today. Its evident closer to the end of the topic Final Exams for those who have missed out on the small little rants that i went on and CK followed up upon it. Well ok they weren't really rants they were more like quick fiery opinions .

For those of you too lazy to hit back first and read up here's the link.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=105384

Important posts to read are #10 Crimson King, and the follow ups from me and then Common Yoshi. They show the general consensus of not only how we felt about the SAT's, but the Education System in general.

In my humble opinion, the school systems in America (save for a lucky few that may have some intelligent learning processes) are absolute garbage. They're are a lot of things wrong within the school systems that although they were reforms made to try and help students further their education, what ended up happening was that they made it harder for some kids to pass then they realize. A key example of this, at least in my state of Rhode Island is the "No Child Left Behind Act" passed by George Bush in 2001.

"Three days after taking office in January 2001 as the 43rd President of the United States, George W. Bush announced No Child Left Behind, his framework for bipartisan education reform that he described as "the cornerstone of my Administration." President Bush emphasized his deep belief in our public schools, but an even greater concern that "too many of our neediest children are being left behind," despite the nearly $200 billion in Federal spending since the passage of the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (ESEA). The President called for bipartisan solutions based on accountability, choice, and flexibility in Federal education programs."
http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/intro/execsumm.html

Now taken into account that this is based on ideals, on paper this sounds like it would be a good reform for our education system. However it has created unforeseen obstacles for students that were not first thought of at the time of the act being passed. For one thing, many of the students that are of higher caliber, are stuck with less challenging activities that are played towards making the students pass as a group. This is slightly abated by the use of different core classes, Advanced, Standered, Traditional, but is still apparent within the school systems.

Standardized Testing is another major problem within the school system. The reason being is that it is not a fair estimation of a students intelligence. If a student is not a good test-taker then they are going to be at a disadvantage and they're marks won't reflect a base intelligence. SAT's as we went over in those posts from the thread "Final Exam" are impossible to base intelligence off of because its more of a marathon then any measurement of knowledge. Common Yoshi's story is particularly apparent in this issue.

The point of this being, i want your opinion Proom... how do you feel about the education system here? Discussion wanted.. please no 4chan or bashing

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I agree whole heartedly that the education system is disappointing.

So much money is put forth to schools (or supposed to with tax money) yet every school I've been to has major repair work needed in some form or fashion.

The air conditioning, the flooring, the roofing..etc, even the "Nicer" schools have repair problems and I'm wondering why is that considering all this money and effort are put towards schools.

Kevin really nailed all the points on the educational parts of it but as for the equipment of the schools, the hardware of it so to speak, most schools are in truly bad shape.

This really disheartens me as children are supposed to be getting things we didn't have as a child, not having to put up with the same old problems.

 

[Crimson King]

I completely and totally agree. We just have created a society where the educated are looked down upon instead of encouraged.

Note: This is what I want the future DH to look like. (Topics like this)

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I'm glad the topic caught your attention king. Its really bad to work so hard for something people think little of.

I personally do not want to have children as akward as they may sound but to a new parent, thats just plain scary how the education system is now.

 

[KevinM]

Thanks CK.. at least some people like to discuss things instead of youtube fads hah.

I forgot to mention that Blue, school supplies are also an extremely overlooked thing and many public schools are missing basic things. My school didn't have printer paper for the first half of the year. Isn't education supposed to be important.. hard to think that with no worksheets, handouts etc

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Exactly what I was getting at..where are the funds going?

 

[Frozenserpent]

I happen to fortunate enough to live in a pretty sheltered community, and our city is pretty much a bubble.
That said, education does seem rather unadequate in realizing the full potential of each student. Education of each individual, however, would require a great amount of time and effort, and I doubt that teachers can ever be expected to devote that much time to reach that level. Instead, it is up to the students and parents to be dedicated to the student's education. That is why it is important that the entire mindset about education is re-established. It is imperative that students have the desire to educate themselves. Early education should strive to work at this goal, to motivate students to learn.

I have no doubt in my mind that the average student is easily capable of studying single-variable calculus by freshman year in high school. The problem, however, is that the education system isn't focused on delivering the best education to each of its students. Instead, it merely attempt to deliver the most basic abilities to every student. Certainly, children should not be left behind by the education system, but I find it failing of the system to not educate as much as possible.

With such low standards, it comes to no surprise that students are apathetic about their own education. The level of material progresses pathetically slowly from grade to grade. In place of actually intellectually stimulating material, teachers instead distract the students with busywork, to the point that the students don't learn anything meaningful.
So-called advanced classes are jokes, as they can hardly be considered "advanced" at all. The standards of the school system has been horrendous and needs to rectified before we can expect real results from the system.


As for the SAT's, it's understandable that people critisize it for "not accurately reflecting intelligence." However, it still plays a factor in predicting future performance in students, simply as class performance plays a factor in predicting future performance, and this is why colleges still give a good deal of weight to standardized testing. I'm sure no one actually believes that SAT's or class grades are good measurements of intelligence, or are even supposed to be measurements of intelligence. Instead, they are factors that give a general indication of how well he might do in college, which is why colleges look at them.

Secondly, I can't imagine how anyone, even one who has a horrible time at taking tests, can do so poorly on his tests that it actually makes a huge difference. The SAT's is a very basic test, covering very simple material that people should have learned in middle school. It doesn't give horribly misleading results. If a person got an extremely low score on the SAT's, it's clear he either didn't try, or he was horribly educated. The SAT's may not give very accurate results, but, then again, neither do course grades, where it varies greatly from teacher to teacher, and where, in many instances, students can't get away with partial knowledge and still ace their courses.

Well, that's my personal feelings. This is the end of senior year for me, and it has only been the last two years of high school when i started to get interested in my coursework. College work should hopefully infinitely more interesting and stimulating than the waste of time my early education was.

 

[drcossack]

Thanks CK.. at least some people like to discuss things instead of youtube fads hah.

I forgot to mention that Blue, school supplies are also an extremely overlooked thing and many public schools are missing basic things. My school didn't have printer paper for the first half of the year. Isn't education supposed to be important.. hard to think that with no worksheets, handouts etc

wow. I thought it was bad when my HS didn't have notebooks during my, uh, junior year (I obviously don't remember when it was.)

Quick note on the rest of my post: I am a dinosaur when it comes to High school (graduated in 2004)

SAT's - there was some afternoon prep at my school. I didn't end up using it. I did some stuff at a Penn State branch campus instead. I got an 11 something on the old one.

If a person got an extremely low score on the SAT's, it's clear he either didn't try, or he was horribly educated

This is true. I remember someone telling me that one of the girls in my class did really badly her first time (under 1000). I ended up getting a 1090. I don't know how much time she spent preparing, but I have to credit that for why I was able to do so well...even with the terrible boredom the second time I took it.

I also took an Advanced Placement US History course. My Guidance Counselor, in her infinite incompetence, didn't want me to take the course. I got in after 3 weeks, took my first test two weeks later, got a 90 something. So much for a difficult class. The only hard part was the actual AP exam. Was probably my most enjoyable class in high school though.

College work should hopefully infinitely more interesting and stimulating than the waste of time my early education was.

It is. It's a lot better than what you're used to - more fun, new people, etc. The work gets extremely boring after a while, though that usually means a break of some sort is just around the corner.

 

[KevinM]

Instead, it is up to the students and parents to be dedicated to the student's education. That is why it is important that the entire mindset about education is re-established. It is imperative that students have the desire to educate themselves. Early education should strive to work at this goal, to motivate students to learn.

This is very true, and the problem is that on paper the "No Child Left Behind" act was supposed to address this with a series of "accountability checks", these include state testing and other homogeneous activities that go throughout the state or region. However this activites do not prove to do anything to further a students attempts at wanting to learn and instead create only the need in the student to reach the accountability standard and then continue on with their "education". Unfortunately by the time the students hit Middle School, where they should start getting their intensive studies they are so brainwashed into "meeting the standards" that they aren't interested in learning anymore.

With such low standards, it comes to no surprise that students are apathetic about their own education. The level of material progresses pathetically slowly from grade to grade. In place of actually intellectually stimulating material, teachers instead distract the students with busywork, to the point that the students don't learn anything meaningful.
So-called advanced classes are jokes, as they can hardly be considered "advanced" at all. The standards of the school system has been horrendous and needs to rectified before we can expect real results from the system.

I agree with you whole-heartedly here... Although i like the particular fact that when you aren't able to keep up with the busy work, they subtract from your grade which should be a reflection on how well you know the subject and instead it reflects how good you are at keeping up with swarms of work. As for advanced classes being a joke.. I completely agree, they're not hard at all.. in fact at this point it feels like i'm smarter then half my teachers, i haven't learned anything all junior year, just repetitive work that i can barely keep up with and have lost all interest in.

As for the SAT's, it's understandable that people critisize it for "not accurately reflecting intelligence." However, it still plays a factor in predicting future performance in students, simply as class performance plays a factor in predicting future performance, and this is why colleges still give a good deal of weight to standardized testing. I'm sure no one actually believes that SAT's or class grades are good measurements of intelligence, or are even supposed to be measurements of intelligence. Instead, they are factors that give a general indication of how well he might do in college, which is why colleges look at them.

This is true, but the problem is that some of the smarter kids that get apathetic because of the lackluster education suffer because they might not be able to shine in their environment. This can be a problem because some of the students might not get their full opportunities due to those same apathetic tenancies brought upon by school's poor education policies.

Secondly, I can't imagine how anyone, even one who has a horrible time at taking tests, can do so poorly on his tests that it actually makes a huge difference. The SAT's is a very basic test, covering very simple material that people should have learned in middle school. It doesn't give horribly misleading results. If a person got an extremely low score on the SAT's, it's clear he either didn't try, or he was horribly educated. The SAT's may not give very accurate results, but, then again, neither do course grades, where it varies greatly from teacher to teacher, and where, in many instances, students can't get away with partial knowledge and still ace their courses.

Well although i will agree that i found the SAT's easy, i'm also rather intelligent and had took classes to prepare for it. The questions themselves are full of subtle tricks and some of the stuff i found was actually quite difficult. Not only that, but its a marathon and some people can't stay mentally sharp for more then three hours, which is what this test demands. Its a rigorous testing process that i can't see as a good example of how good a kid is, even at meeting the standards. When else do you need to sit for four hours and stay on point that whole time.

 

[shadowstriker2005]

However, while there are a lot of good points being made here, I think that we're forgetting about one of the biggest detriments to education: a bad teacher. More likely than not, our worst teachers are those who probably have tenure, which means that they'll still get paid the same income, no matter how well they teach. What this means is that teachers will not teach as well as they used to, since they know that they'll get paid the same amount of money no matter how good or bad of a job they do.

I certainly have experience with this, more in my sophomore year of high school than in any point in my life. I recently had an AP Computer Science (or Java) teacher, who's notorious for barely teaching anything, and as a result, many kids often only get 1s or 2s on the AP tests. During class, he'd often give us time to work on our programming "labs," yet nobody would know how to do it, and as a result, kids would give up and blatantly study for other classes during Java. And he didn't do a **** thing about the increasing apathy in our class. This is only one out of many examples I'm sure you may have come across.

In our current day and age, we need to eliminate tenure, since it just provides excuses and allows laziness. After all, if teachers don't really care, why should the students?

 

[Frozenserpent]

However, while there are a lot of good points being made here, I think that we're forgetting about one of the biggest detriments to education: a bad teacher. More likely than not, our worst teachers are those who probably have tenure, which means that they'll still get paid the same income, no matter how well they teach. What this means is that teachers will not teach as well as they used to, since they know that they'll get paid the same amount of money no matter how good or bad of a job they do.

I certainly have experience with this, more in my sophomore year of high school than in any point in my life. I recently had an AP Computer Science (or Java) teacher, who's notorious for barely teaching anything, and as a result, many kids often only get 1s or 2s on the AP tests. During class, he'd often give us time to work on our programming "labs," yet nobody would know how to do it, and as a result, kids would give up and blatantly study for other classes during Java. And he didn't do a **** thing about the increasing apathy in our class. This is only one out of many examples I'm sure you may have come across.

In our current day and age, we need to eliminate tenure, since it just provides excuses and allows laziness. After all, if teachers don't really care, why should the students?

Haha... last year we had a similar APCS teacher. She did lecture to us and tell us what we needed to know, but most of my learning came from the couple of students who already knew their stuff in the class. We just had free time during the class, sans a few assignments here and there. It's not like she didn't care about teaching us stuff. She just didn't seem especially knowledgeable on the subject, compared to the more talented students in the class. She gave us practice AP tests throughout the year. The end result was that pretty much everyone got a 5 on the AP test.

This may be my own personal experience influencing my perception, but a great deal has to do with motivation. I, personally, learn on my own. The teachers are just one possible resource for me. In fact, I don't really pay attention to teachers' lectures. Instead, I study by myself from my textbooks. It seems to me that students could learn a great deal even with a bad teacher, if they had the motivation. Unfortunately, that motivation doesn't come from a poor or unenthusiastic teacher. I've been lucky to have parents that gave me motivation to educate myself. And I've also been lucky to grow up in a community where all my peers value education (well, in high school, at least).

Students have a great deal of potential. It's just that they don't actively pursue it early in their childhoods... it's hard to change an entire mindset, but hopefully we can slowly chip away at it.

We should get better teachers, but it is hard to find truly good teachers... It's not easy being a great teacher. And it's hard for a teacher to stay enthusiastic the entire time, year after year..

If I recall correctly, tenure was implemented to give benefits to the teacher, where teachers can be a little more unconventional in their teaching method after a few years, without fear of being fired. Unfortunately it does protect a number of incompetent teachers. What we need is a reworked version of tenure that would give teachers some comfort, but not be enough to protect pure incompetency.

As for SAT's, I concede that there are "tricks" to standarized testing. Studying specifically for standardized testing raises test scores greatly because one begins to notice all sorts of patterns to the test.

 

[psicicle]

**** that sucks for you guys. I go to a pretty sweet school in the US; It's a private boarding one so I don't even know what this no child left behind thing is.

I find it hard to believe that anybody could take single variable calculus freshman year in high school. Not everybody is as mathematically inclined as... I suppose you or I am. I know people who are taking Algebra 1 freshman year. I know that in middle school there is a great deal of repetition but that seems to me like a pretty lofty goal.

I welcome the option to cram, because I can basically ignore what I don't want to learn if I know that I don't need to know it in the future. Mandatory subjects like history are a pain the the *** for me, mainly because I have very little interest in the subject. As long as it isn;t from shortsighted laziness, I think cramming can be a positive thing.

 

[KevinM]

I find it hard to believe that anybody could take single variable calculus freshman year in high school. Not everybody is as mathematically inclined as... I suppose you or I am. I know people who are taking Algebra 1 freshman year. I know that in middle school there is a great deal of repetition but that seems to me like a pretty lofty goal.

I agree, but again that reflects on the school system and teachers within it. Because of apathetic teachers i was still taking rudimentary Algebra 1 in my first year of high school, i never learned how to further my education in Math. I'm still scarred for it as i'm not able to grasp many of the concepts of Math and i'm in my junior year.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

The education system is a topic that I've been known to rant about for hours, because I've been screwed over by it in every grade level from preschool to college. Before I went to school, I knew the alphabet, and all basic addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division problems involving numbers 1-12. Let's be honest here. Was there really any point in me being in kindergarten, when I already knew more than what was covered there? The only reason for me to be there was age segregation - to keep me with people that are exactly plus or minus one year of my age. This is supposedly going to help me function in the "real world", despite the fact that I've never held a job in my 7 years in the work force where the only employees I had to deal with were close to my age.

But it gets worse... In high school, the school that I had attended had about 2000 students at the time (it currently has more), and my graduating class had 5 different principals in only 4 years. The school system itself had seen 11 principals in 10 years. Should that say something about how it is run, when they can't keep a principal for more than one year? And seeing how none of the principals I had during the 4 years that I was a student there were able to keep track of the school at all, why should we trust that the school's method of hiring new principals is working? They kept hiring unqualified people who either quit or were fired by the time the school year was over.

And later, I went from being an almost straight A student (graduated 23rd in my class of 450) in high school, to getting completely mixed grades from A to F in college. It took until my 2nd year of college to even discover that there was something wrong, and my 3rd year before I was finally diagnosed with a multitude of learning disorders that kept me from learning the way I was supposed to in a traditional class. Shouldn't this have been found out, like 1st grade at the latest? If it was found out then, I wouldn't have gotten in the kind of debt that I am in now, because I would have tried to learn a trade and gotten a good job by now, and not even bothered with college. Or, if I did decide to go to college, I would have taken different classes, and had the accommodations I needed for them well ahead of time. I'm currently in my 5th year of college, still struggling through to try to complete my bachelor's degree.

This rant will be continued later, I have to go to work now.

 

[GoldShadow]

Regarding the US education system...

I'm going to have to disagree with some of those who say that standardized testing is unnecessary. Frozenserpent is right in saying that they, to some measure, predict future performance. The truth is, most high schools and primary schools around the country vary so much, that a standardized test is useful in comparing applicants against one another.
It's useful to colleges for finding out where grade inflation and deflation are involved. In other words, there might be one high school where teachers give out extremely high grades, yet teach quite poorly. Students at this school might have very high GPAs, but are not really prepared for higher level work. That's why students from this school have lower SATs. On the other hand, students at a very difficult school with a rigourous curriculum might get low grades, but the teaching quality might be better. This will be reflected in their higher SAT scores.

The problem, I think, is the implementation of standardized tests. Not the SATs, per se... I may be alone in saying I support the SATs, even if it is a moneymaking tool for the ETS. I'm talking about those state tests that are administered in middle school and high school. The problem is that funding for a school, according to No Child Left Behind, depends on the scores of these standardized tests. Schools with low scores lose funding, which is counterintuitive. If anything, they need more funding to improve teaching quality. The whole problem with this situation is that, in an effort to improve standardized test scores, teachers teach to a test instead of just teaching.

And of course, teacher quality. Someone else mentioned this above I think, and I agree. Teachers are underpaid in the US. If there was a better incentive to teach, then more qualified teachers would join the profession.

And one last point I'll touch on: student apathy. Education is something that is seen as unimportant by most American students. I believe CK mentioned this. I want to know what you believe the causes of this are? I haven't ever truly thought about why this mentality prevails in the US.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

Standardized testing in its current form is worthless. High school in its current form is also worthless. High school should be more akin to tech or trade schools.

You might be wondering, "Gamer4Fire , why should it be like a tech or trade school?" The answer is simple. The objective of all high schools is "To ready a student for the rigors of life." In other words, a high school graduate should be able to immediately become a fully functional member of society ie. get a job and start a career. How many of you were ready for the real world based on what you were taught in high school?

If instead of generalized knowledge high school students were set on a career path, they would immediately be able to start a job on the way to becoming a professional. That is how schools are set up in many other countries, such as Japan.

 

[Crimson King]

American education is FAR too ruined to really be fixed now. Public education is the problem. You'll find a few bright students in some schools, you might even find a few great public schools, but the problem comes in is that students have no invested interest in their education and they just coast through as fast as possible. Japanese school systems focus a lot more on rewarding the student for doing work correctly, not just getting through it.

I'll always be against public school because of political beliefs. The government should not be educating the future of the country, instead that should be left to private institutions.

 

[Eor]

Private institutions can never be free, and they would be far too easy to exploit. Those in poverty would never be able to rise above it, as education would be blocked from them.

Please explain what you'd do if the only school you can afford to send your kids to is run by a Jerry Falwell.

 

[Crimson King]

Why should private institutions be free?

 

[Eor]

That wasn't my point, at all. Private institutions shouldn't, and cannot, be free. I stated that to bring up the obvious fact that education then wouldn't be free, then based the following questions on it.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

I'm surprised to see so many mods posting in this. It really brings up some good points on how we feel about this.

I live in North Carolina, and alot of the schools I've seen/been to, have been in rural areas..and I don't know about the schools in urban parts but these schools aren't treated all that well.

Placement of the school matters alot..I'm sure urban schools aren't in the kind of shape as these schools considering so many more students go to them and the parents are much more likely to get involved.

In areas like mine, no one really cares enough to do anything.

 

[The Mad Hatter]

Standardized testing in its current form is worthless.

You couldn't be more right. I'm a big fan of Time Magazine and last months issue dealt with "No Child Left Behind." Those of you not familiar with this, its a program designed to bring all students up to the same level in reading and math. What Time showed is that state testing is by far EASIER (some states) than the national testing. I wish I could post the graph but is too complicated for me, so here is link http://www.time.com/time/2007/nochild/. (see how your state is doing)

Some states will make their students look like they are doing great when actually they are very much below average. I think this is the worst thing possible for these kids and our nations future. You put false ideas into kids heads ("You can do anything as long as you put your mind to it!") and they end up going to college on government aid, failing out after 1.5 years of a free ride, then working at McDonald's for the rest of their lives. When will we realize China has the right idea? In 12th grade the kids are tested and either go to college or go to learn a trade skill. That is the reason China is so advanced. They put the money into the kids who will gain the most from it.

Don't worry guys. When I rule the world thing will be all better.

 

[psicicle]

Actually, private institutions can be a lot cheaper with financial aid. If the institution sees potential in the kid, they will want them.

I'm wondering, is the general consensus that middle school to high school education sucks, while college is good? I think that there may be some exaggeration here; I do agree that the education system as describes seems pretty bad, but America still functions even though all these people getting a "worthless" education have jobs.

I large part of this problem is students wanting to learn; if they didn't use the education system as a crutch and did their own study in their field of intrest, perhaps they would be adequately prepared? All of this is just hypothesis, someone could give me confirmation maybe.

SATs can be useful, because most people (college admissions, etc) realize that SAT scores are simply a measure of how good you are at taking the SAT. Generally, people who prepare for it do better, and I believe the people who look at these scores are looking for that quality. Although I may be completely wrong, that;s how I think these scores are used.

"Some states will make their students look like they are doing great when actually they are very much below average. I think this is the worst thing possible for these kids and our nations future. You put false ideas into kids heads ("You can do anything as long as you put your mind to it!") and they end up going to college on government aid, failing out after 1.5 years of a free ride, then working at McDonald's for the rest of their lives."

heh, reminds me of death of a salesman

 

[pikachun00b7]

Our rank is lowering rapidly. My father(a Czech immigrant and a Professor) said that he learned in his freshmen year in highschool what Americans learn in their freshmen year in collage. Though we shouldn't be so pessimistic. Even though our elementary/highschools are ****, our collages are the best.(After you learn what you are supposed learn in highschool lol).

Exactly what I was getting at..where are the funds going?

To NJ schools. My school has good funding. Next school year all classes will have "smartboards" .We get new computers yearly. But this is just my middle-school. Though our highschool(which I'll be going in approximately a year.) was supposed to start construction eight years ago but funding diminished so much that all it has is 32 trailers and a main building.

 

[commonyoshi]

And one last point I'll touch on: student apathy. Education is something that is seen as unimportant by most American students. I believe CK mentioned this. I want to know what you believe the causes of this are? I haven't ever truly thought about why this mentality prevails in the US.

I can only speak for myself when I say this. It's easier not to study and play games/hang out all day. (well duh) We're spoiled rotten with all the stuff we have and refuse to give it up. Not only that, it's easier to look at highly intelligent students who care about their education and bring them down rather than admit to ourselves we're lazy, fat idiots who cant make the effort to actually succeed in things that matter.

Oh, and I refused to study for any of my finals this year. I cant blame the school for this no matter how I look at it.

 

[KevinM]

The public school system of America is completely and totally ruined.. its beyond repair in its current form and its a shame.

heh, reminds me of death of a salesman

Just watches this movie, figured i should say that i see where your coming from a little bit, but i mean it would be a very basic comparison where are you going with that?

The thing is, the school system is so broken beyond repair that to fix it would literally call for halting school and completely revamping the system. How can you fix something that is literally imploding on itself. High school doesn't teach kids anything, i have literally coasted through my first three years of high school with a C average on the basis that I haven't learned anything and just refuse to do a lot of the mundane tasks that are assigned to me. I still don't get things such as late credit, i mean like i understand the concept of the thing, but how do you get a lower score because you took more time on your project. I had one good teacher in these three years, and it was because we didn't have due dates.. he wanted all your projects to be to the best of your ability.

SATs can be useful, because most people (college admissions, etc) realize that SAT scores are simply a measure of how good you are at taking the SAT. Generally, people who prepare for it do better, and I believe the people who look at these scores are looking for that quality. Although I may be completely wrong, that;s how I think these scores are used.

SATs are not really all that useful because like you said, it shows who can cram the best, and who is best suited to intensive testing for multiple hours. I left that place mentally drained and i've never felt that way even after working full days or studying for multiple finals. I've seen kids in trad level courses get better scores then advanced kids, just because they were more laid-back in their testing environment and tested better. Its not good for kids that can't test well and might be detrimental to their ability to get into schools. This is a good reason that some Colleges are starting to not accept the SATs as a valid way of judging.. Such as Providence College.

You might be wondering, "Gamer4Fire , why should it be like a tech or trade school?" The answer is simple. The objective of all high schools is "To ready a student for the rigors of life." In other words, a high school graduate should be able to immediately become a fully functional member of society ie. get a job and start a career. How many of you were ready for the real world based on what you were taught in high school?

If instead of generalized knowledge high school students were set on a career path, they would immediately be able to start a job on the way to becoming a professional. That is how schools are set up in many other countries, such as Japan.

So are you recommending that kids should have they're "majors" picked in freshman year of high school. How do you train kids to be ready to be set on a career path from middle school?

 

[pikachun00b7]

Don't worry guys. When I rule the world thing will be all better.

You don't realize that you and the rest of the world is playing into my hands. The largest mindgame ever, son.

we're lazy, fat idiots who cant make the effort to actually succeed in things that matter.

Are you talking about me?

 

[GoldShadow]

If instead of generalized knowledge high school students were set on a career path, they would immediately be able to start a job on the way to becoming a professional. That is how schools are set up in many other countries, such as Japan.

So are you recommending that kids should have they're "majors" picked in freshman year of high school. How do you train kids to be ready to be set on a career path from middle school?

I'm with Kevin here... I know how in many other countries, students pick their career path early on. My family is from India, so I know a lot of relatives who've been through that, my parents included.
Problem is, most kids don't truly know what they want to do at that point in time. In those countries, kids are often conditioned and shaped by their parents' desires to become something that they might not truly want to do (without even realizing it). In some countries, it is (or was) necessary. If you don't do extremely well in school and get a great education and start learning early, you'll never get a good job.
It's not like that in the US, the situation is not as competitive or dire for the average individual. I sure as hell didn't know what I wanted to do until the end of junior year in high school. A lot of my friends still don't know what they want to do, as college sophomores.

I had one good teacher in these three years, and it was because we didn't have due dates.. he wanted all your projects to be to the best of your ability.

I'm going to have to disagree with his teaching style. There's nothing admirable about getting rid of due dates; in the real world, there are deadlines that you have to meet. You don't get all semester to decide when you want to do things. Deadlines, while annoying, are necessary.

 

[KevinM]

I'm going to have to disagree with his teaching style. There's nothing admirable about getting rid of due dates; in the real world, there are deadlines that you have to meet. You don't get all semester to decide when you want to do things. Deadlines, while annoying, are necessary.

Although i can see where your getting at and i agree that deadlines in the real world should correspond to high school, i hope you can see what i was getting at. The fact was, the teacher pushed us to put our best work forward and in essence taught us to push ourselves for the A. His grading was strict because of the due date thing and it taught us all about putting time and effort into the projects. Anything i learned from planning and quality work came from him. So although I agree deadlines are necessary, this one teacher was able to also instill the finer qualities of working to the best of your ability and to like doing it with his students.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

KevinM's teacher actually cared about the students striving for their best work, over a teacher just doing their job and teaching what they are supposed to teach to get paid...He actually wanted them to put forth their best effort and have a better time with it over stressing a deadline. I like that teaching style long as none of the students would try to abuse that.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

KevinM - The Japanese use their junior high as a kind of "job fair." Students learn general knowledge of the various fields that they may consider becoming a professional in. Then they choose between the three different types of high schools: industrial, agricultural or business. They test to even be accepted to these schools. Then from high school they can either become an entry level employee in one of those fields or continue onto college and become an expert in an even narrower portion of that field. In this way they can choose their career path from a general understanding of what each is and simply continue with what they enjoy doing or feel is easiest for them to do.

I don't expect children to know what they ultimately want to do with their lives, but they do know and will pursue what they take greatest interest in instead of being forced to learn the same thing as everyone else. In that way they have some motivation to learn.

 

[KevinM]

@Gamer- Unfortunately what you are asking for is a complete and total revamping of not only the education system of America, but also American ideals. Part of what America was based on was freedom of education and opportunity, by limiting kids to what they can be that early on in life you take that way from them. People still go to school later on in life to find a new career path, but with what your saying to be initiated they will never have that chance because after high school their path is set with what their greatest interest was at that time. By not giving them general knowledge if they eventually find out, upon entering the real world that is, that they dislike the field they have chosen, they will have no way to be able to learn of a new field because all they have learned has been specific to that field.

Without the ability to have freedom of education with the aspects of learning general knowledge, you lose many of the basic things that the american education system (as unsound as it may be) was ideally supposed to be about. So unfortunately i don't think that we would be able to put any of the Japanese schooling ideas into play.. it would require way to much of a radical change from not only the system itself, but parents, students, teachers, and society as a whole. Your reforming a lot with that outlook.

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Everyone has such good points, its really hard to say what would be best for the future of the United states...I'm glad I'm not faced with the pressure of making that decision and going about reform..although someone sure needs to lol.

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'd like to see a school system that is not based on testing at all. Too bad that'll never happen.

 

[KevinM]

I'd like to see a school system that is not based on testing at all. Too bad that'll never happen.

How can you make a school that is not based on testing?

 

[Gamer4Fire]

I never said we should embrace the Japanese school system as our own. I was simply using it as an example of how high school as technical schools do work. I'm positive that an American style would be vastly different. But I'm also quite certain that it could work.

 

[KevinM]

I don't know, i mean in essence your revamping the whole American Populace with what your asking, not just the school systems. People would have to be willing to accept the changes i cannot stress that enough and to demolish the whole system (though believe me, that seems one of the best things we could do) would not be able to be enacted with todays population. You'd literally have to freeze education for a couple of generations while you get that whole thing sorted out.

 

[GoldShadow]

Still, the American system of education seems to be good for one thing: research. Numerous sources place dozens of American research universities as the best research universities in the world. The US is, without a shadow of doubt, the best place as a whole for research, discoveries, and innovation. It isn't as if the school and education system doesn't work; it's that it only works well for a relatively select number of individuals. The solution lies in finding a system that prepares nearly all students for work and society. After all, US high school students as a whole lag behind the rest of the world.

 

[Takalth]

Still, the American system of education seems to be good for one thing: research. Numerous sources place dozens of American research universities as the best research universities in the world. The US is, without a shadow of doubt, the best place as a whole for research, discoveries, and innovation.

The reason for this can be summed up in a single principle: Let people profit from their achievements, and they'll achieve a lot more. That doesn't come from our education system, but rather, from our capitalism. Many countries do a better job with education than we do but stifle brilliance with excessive government regulations and taxes.

So what should our education system be? Less Federal control and more local control. Amendment 10 of the constitution says that any power not delegated to the federal government should go to state governments and to the people. Education is not listed in the constitution, so the Federal government shouldn't be where the decisions are made.

The fact is, government works best on as small of a scale as possible. If public school worked at the community level, you would get more parental involvement because parents would actually have some control. Parents now wield some small influence in getting a teacher hired or fired, but they can't make any real changes, so they send their children off to the institution that crushes creativity, dumbs down smart people, and teaches poor work habits.

Besides the benefit of more parental control, education would be a lot cheaper. Anybody who thinks education is free or even close to it has no idea how the system works. Large quantities of your money are taken through taxation to pay for low quality education because 75% of the tax money is lost as it trickles through 800 government agencies.

Indeed, a large portion of our modern political problems started because the Federal government got involved in the first place. If you want good education, pull control away from the federal government and put it in the hands of the people where it belongs.

 

[Gamer4Fire]

KevinM - Not really, we already have the basic framework in the electives system. You remember that you had the choice of which classes you wanted to go to? Simply expanding the system by adding technical and trade classes and de-emphasizing general education, and start at the junior high school level by adding technical and trade primers. Also, we should be teaching much more general ed in primary (elementary) school level.

Oh, and remove homework. I always hated homework. What's the point of going to school if I have to take it home with me.