Edgeguarding via Ledge Abuse

[Espy Rose]

Not sure exactly if it needed it's own thread, but it sure as hell did drown in the Sonic GD, so I thought I'd repost it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3gO6w_5eyo

I tested this with K Prime this last weekend, and wanted to wait for him to post videos about it.
We tried this with Sonic against Marth and Mr. Game & Watch.

Sonic's fair, uair, and nair work against the two of them in this fashion, as long as they are executed properly.

Sonic's bair works against Mr. Game & Watch.

So umm...discuss?

what happens if you try to do that WITHOUT using ledge invincibility?

Is the window of opportunity for Marth's recovery the same as G&W's? Less time? More time?

Also, in regards to Sonic's bair against Game & Watch, would the hitbox send him outwards away from the stage or inwards towards the stage for a possible stage spike?

@KID: You'd have to be able to time any of our aerials to the extent that their hitbox is out at that EXACT SINGLE FRAME where Mr. Game & Watch is vulnerable in order to hit him. Not only that, but because he's more or less underneath the level during the vulnerable frame, you'd have to be off of the level a considerable distance and already doing an attack to land the move.

I think I only managed it once out of a running-off-the-ledge fast falled bair. All the other times I either whiffed, or got hit.

Generally speaking, it's just easier to hit him out of a ledge snap, since you can abuse the invincible frames you still have after letting go.

This little trick is also great for gimping Ikes (I'm fond of this trick against low recovering MKs too from time to time). I only brought it up because I didn't know that G&W had a weak point in his upB from below aside from a quick ledge snap.

@Rave: I believe K Prime told me it was 4-5 frames that Marth was vulnerable, so the window is bigger for him, of course.
Nailing Mr. Game & Watch with the bair...it depends on where the bair lands. Several times during our tests, my bair sent him into the stage. Other times, it sent him away.

timing is pretty **** tight

but doable if you see the opportunity, from what i can visually see when GW goes into the grabbing on the ledge animation it doesnt look like he has IF there only after he starts dangling under it

how would you apply this to ike tho? doesnt he have SA frames during some of aether?

K Prime has videos of gimping Ike using the same concept.
He even gimped my Ike with Ganondorf using the same method.

Ike has SA during the "throw my sword up" animation. He can be hit out of the rising and spinning animation.

You snap the ledge, drop THROUGH the sword-throw with your invincible frames leftover from the ledge snap, then hit him before he passes through you for a free gimp. Heck, you could even drop a spring afterward to pour salt in the wound.

Fun Fact: Sonic can also bair Ike out of Aether during the "spinning" animation.

I did that against someone in my tourney saturday. The SD platform drop Bair kill. Feels good man.

So basically, we can gimp the hell out of Marth if we send him off stage and force him to use his second jump.
Does Nair have enough priority to allow a small margin of error in timing? Since it his a lingering hitbox, could one of the weaker hits still knock Marth out of his UpB? Or is it the strong hitbox the only one that will hit him out of it?

EDIT: And for Ike, wouldn't it be easier to just Dair towards the stage? I did that a few times against Ike and not only do I dodge the sword throwing and the SA frames. As I come down and hit him, he gets sent up into the stage for a stagespike. Of course, proper DI should probably avoid that from happening. Still a neat thing to do on stages like BF and FD.

As long as your hitbox is out, and you're still invincible from the ledge drop, you should be able to hit Marth out of it.

However, I'd personally advise against using the sex kick portion of nair. That's begging for an UpB stage spike from a Marth.

True. I guess the only other thing to watch out for with using Nair is to not accidentally Dair. That would suck :l.

Which aerial would you suggest be best for gimping him from the ledge drop? Nair and Fair seemed like the only viable ones since Uair would send him up.

Just to clarify, Rave, you do NOT fast fall a ledge drop for either Marth or Mr. Game & Watch.
You just ledge drop by hitting away.

With Ike, you fast fall the ledge drop. Not the case with G&W and Marth.

As for preferences, do whatever you feel is more appropriate.
-Fair if you want damage, or you don't think they'll tech the stage spike/DI up.
-Nair if you want the better knock back at higher percentages/want the KO off of the horizontals. On the edges of Final Destination, a sweet spot fresh nair should kill around 160-180, based on the character + DI.

Videos for the whole Ike gimping idea from the ledge came from these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfq2jo8F66I : Gimping Ike's Aether w/ Pikachu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW7bkOoxPB4 : Gimping Ike's Aether w/ Pikachu 2

I think this could call for some testing against other characters besides just G&W, Marth, and Ike.

Above that, just the concept of abusing our ledge invincibility for edgeguarding purposes would be pretty cool.

Does anyone have any accurate frame data on how many frames of invincibility Sonic has after letting go of the ledge as soon as possible? It'd give a good time frame for how far away we can attack from while still having invincibility.

It has to be longer than Sonic's bair, especially since you're able to bair G&W out of his UpB prior to the ledge snap.

So yeah, discuss.

 

[Trent]

Seems pretty cool. Already saw it in the SG though.

I'm probably gonna try it at the next tournament I go to.

Spoiler

Once my hand heals.. -.-

 

[Nike.]

The marth one is stupid easy. Metaknight's have been using nair on it for a long time. However, I didn't know about g&w's til you showed me the other day. K Prime hacks the game, I swear.

These are dangerous as hell, though. Messing up your timing risk's a stage spike. Hopefully people have a partner to practice it with.

 

[Espy Rose]

At least for Game & Watch's, as long as you time your portion of it properly, even messing up won't damage you.

However, at that point, you have to recovery while G&W is hogging the ledge, so yeah.

 

[Trillion]

I have some ledge frames for Pikachu. Right when he grabs the ledge he has 34 frames of invincibility and can let go on frame 14. I don't know if it's the same for every character, but I hope that helps.

Edit: Okay, I just tested this with every character and coincidentally Pikachu has the least ledge grab lag and everyone else has the same. Tethers also have less ledge grab lag. These are all just normal ledge grabs. I did not test with up b, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Pikachu
Invincibility Frames - 34
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 12
Ledge Drop Frame - 14

Everyone else
Invincibility Frames - 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 24
Ledge Drop Frame - 26

Tethers
Invincibility Frames - 23
Ledge Grab Lag Frames - 1
Ledge Drop Frame - 3

Extra Info
-You can only re-grab the ledge after 30 frames from letting go. For tethers it's like 1 frame.
-You cannot buffer a ledge drop. So you have to be frame perfect on the ledge drop if you want to take advantage of every invincibility frame.
-Invincibility frames start as soon as the character does their ledge reach animation. For tether users, they start when their tether is fully retracted.
-The maximum amount of invincibility frames on ledge drop is 21 frames for everyone.

This data seems like it is probably pretty accurate. I believe that Sonic should have 20 frames of invincibility based on the math (46 - 26 = 20). This should be plenty large enough margin to get this done consistently after some practice.

I'd like to clarify some things. Bair can works on G&W but not on Marth or Ike? From the above it sounds like everyone thinks that Fair and Nair are better options against Marth and Ike, but Bair is better against G&W?

Also, do we have similar data for other characters (Peach comes to mind)?

 

[Espy Rose]

I messed with this plenty during the weekend.
I was able to successfully gimp even the likes of Samus with a properly timed fair off of the ledge.



Also, I think the reason why we can bair G&W and not Marth is because of their placements during their vulnerability frames. Not entirely sure, though. I could've just as easily been mistiming the bair as well.

Needs more testing, obviously.