Edgeguarding Fox

[Wenbobular]

This may evolve into a general edgeguarding topic at some point but for now it's about edgeguarding Fox.

I chose Fox to start with because
a) he's the most popular character
b) there are hella ways to do it and people do stupid stuff all the time

(Rough ... for now) Table of contents (CNTL+F for sections)
Intro
Random terminology / abbreviations
Edgeguarding close to the stage
Firefox general information
Illusion general information


Intro
A skillful Fox is one of the hardest characters to edgeguard; varying Firefox angles and illusion lengths give Fox options above, below, and level to the stage and he doesn't suffer from having a short recovery like Falco. Successfully edgeguarding Fox isn't nearly as linear as edgeguarding a character like Sheik, but hopefully this outline introduces good ways to cover multiple options or ways to cover options while remaining relatively uncommitted / safe

Note: although I try to break this into separate zones based on distance from the ledge and height relvative to stage level, Fox accelerates from his double jump / falling speed fast enough that he can travel between zones very quickly - it’s very important to keep this bit in mind, especially when Fox still has his double jump

Random terminology / abbreviations
Shorten - shortened illusion
UAFT / DAFT - upward / downward angled forward tilt

Firefox general information
The chargeup time is slow, but it can be sweetspotted from below on stages that don’t have Battlefield edges.
Can grab ledge backward - important to note (mainly) on Battlefield
Startup will burn you
Can grab ledge during Fire animation (Frame 16)
Very little landing lag
Goes in all directions (16 distinct directions? more?)

Illusion general information
Fairly fast startup (movement on 21st frame), linear path
No hitbox in front
Can stop momentum by pressing B on frames where you’re moving (20-24)
Sweetspot depends on height and distance
Shortened illusion is very difficult to hit unless you aim at the start
Fairly laggy if Fox is not out of the animation before touching the ground

Edgeguarding close to the stage

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Important: this section does not include double jump sweetspots or how to cover shine stalls / Firegrabs - that will probably get its own section or subsection in this later. Assume for simplicity that Fox cannot make it back using only his double jump.

Summary - Illusion is the strongest option in this zone while Firefox is laugably easy to edgeguard: any Firefoxes done within standing shorthop range can and should be immediately be hit with an aerial, even with a slightly late reaction time. However, also the easiest zone to get out of for Fox (double jump, dropping lower)

Firefoxes done below the stage in the light blue area should be tapped with weak knee to set up further edgeguarding of Firefox. Can also use stomp, Bair, or Uair tipper depending on distance from stage and the direction you’re facing, but be wary of anything that won’t let you grab the ledge before their Firefox starts moving.

Illusions are harder due to edgeguard the fast startup and the possibility of a shorten. Properly done shortens are almost impossible to hit with a move from the ledge; in this zone, grabbing the ledge and reacting to illusions with getup attack is fairly effective at hitting full length illusions slightly above stage height and edgehogging shortens, although the most effective method is calling a shorten with an aerial at the starting point.
Illusions done too high to be hit with getup attack can be punished by hanging long enough to confirm a shorten, then doing a fast ledgedash -> running SH stomp where Fox lands.

Do not, however, assume your opponent can shorten until he/she demonstrates otherwise.
If your opponent does not demonstrate such ability but still chooses to illusion in this area, react with DAFT or mirror Fox’s height and SH Bair.

Since the Fox usually has his/her double jump in this area, jumping back or falling down into a more midrange area is a common response - this means Firefox is out of standing SH aerial range while illusion can still reach deep enough into the stage to be out of range of ledgehop knee. Transition into covering midrange options here.

 

[Wenbobular]

Tips / tricks / uncommon but good / lesser known things / etc.

When Fox double jumps and tries to Firegrab the ledge when you're on it, ROLL!!!
Getup attack will get you hit by the flame and doesn't hit through up-b, so roll and try to react to the angle

Runoff DJ Uair covers a lot of Firefox angles from above but you need to have super tight timing to pull it off successfully

 

[Wenbobular]

Reserved

Does anyone have any suggestions? Comments?

I'm a little worried it's too wordy, but one of these posts can be dedicated to a most important parts post, helpful tricks people don't do, something like that

Midrange coming up next

 

[Deleted member]

waiting on midrange i am usually stumped when they are barely above the edge and firefox sweetspot it

 

[Juggleguy]

Just a note, Firefox goes in WAY more than 16 possible directions... I saw a detailed post by AJP that showed there are over 100 possible directions.

 

[Wenbobular]

I'll do a bit of writing about how I feel now because it's probably the most important range - really common and people mess up a lot

That situation feels like a complicated RPS, especially if they got there by double jumping back from short range because you'll have much less time to plan for midrange recoveries when you're worrying about short range too

Going from short range to medium is super tricky because they can usually grab the ledge with their DJ, which requires different responses than covering the rest of their short range options, and while you're doing that it's harder to react to the DJ back, but ...

If they can't get back to the ledge with their double jump, then I'm sure you're familiar with the RPS of Fox dropping lower > Falcon flying knee > Fox DJ back + illusions at stage height + Firefoxes of every height above the stage

You have time to set that up if the Fox is coming back from a strong move but still manages to get into midrange ... the problem is when you don't think you have time to set up (either mentally or physically), at which point the Fox gets to Firefox at that height you talked about uncontested

From there the easiest way to turn it into a low risk RPS is just grabbing the ledge, which you'll always have time to do
Given that you're on the ledge and Fox is Firefoxing at medium range, I think the best plan is to do a hard read on whether or not he's going to the ledge. If you try to cover everything you'll probably wind up doing worse than if you just guessed

Ledgehop Bair -> FH aerial to cover straight toward + higher angles, ledgehop -> hang with invincibility -> ledgehop stuff will get the to the edge and the super high angles but probably won't get straight at the ledge, there are probably other options that cover different sets so you need to mix it up, but I think the most important part is choosing one and committing (as much as I hate committing I think here it's a necessary evil)

If you don't manage to get the ledge and think you'll get burned for trying to steal it, you could try Bair in a way so it'll hit the above-the-ledge-sweetspot, but to do so you have to go out pretty far because the sweetspot is uncannily good at grabbing if well done - if you miss then it becomes super terrible because Fox grabs the stage before you and has invincibility

For the same reason I'm not a fan of ledgehop Bair, the possibility of getting the ledge stolen because you miss is too much IMO - you don't have your jump and the position sucks big time

I think that's kinda how it goes - basically you should grab the ledge if at all possible and guess but if anyone wants to think of a better way please write something because I also hate trying to edgeguard Foxes at this range when I'm on stage -_-

Heh, this isn't even really considering platforms yet <_<

Winston brought up an option I forgot about - runoff Uair should cover a lot of the options but it's tricky to execute and time right, and if you mess up there's the possibility of getting burned during your DJ

Also we talked about DAFT a bit and I don't think I like it that much after thinking about it more - the Foxes good at sweetspotting will sweetspot just below the lip and it doesn't cover the Firefox sweetspots (super good vs people bad at sweetspotting / on Battlefield, probably)

 

[Deleted member]

Thanks bro helps a lot

 

[JonnyW]

This does deserve its own thread. Good stuff so far.

 

[Wizzrobe]

Yes, this is just the guide I need!

 

[adechrist]

Sick thread.
Utilt is the only way to edgeguard a double jump regrab (that I know of). It only works if the double jump isn't sweetspotted. But when it works it's a stock. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QuAiBXKTgY#t=31s

I think it's very important to discuss all of falcon's options for edguarding. Even ways that don't work often. For example doing a running jump off the stage and kneeing. This is dangerous and doesn't always work, but if you know it'll work because your opponent is recovering the same way every time, it's a good option. There's never going to be one edgeguarding strategy that covers all options, so it's good to mix up your edgeguarding. Mix it up so that you're opponent can't adapt to what you're doing, or just adapt and punish once your opponent adapts.

I also think it's important to discuss what to do once your opponent has grabbed the edge. Personally I think this is still a part of edgeguarding. Once your opponent is on the edge they still have to get back onto the stage and their options are limited.

 

[Wenbobular]

The thing about edgeguarding the double jump sweetspot is that a lot of things will work if they don't do it properly, but almost nothing works if they do it well :\

As for Fox's ledge options, good ledgedashing + mixups after is very hard to beat but most Foxes aren't good enough at it to matter

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wenbo is the man.