Edge Tactics

[Uffe]

I want to get into a discussion about edge tactics. There is probably a better term for this, but after last night, I'm honestly not sure how to deal with this sort of tactic without taking damage, which is never good. And if you're going to take damage, what ways could we make this to where we take less? It sounds like it might be easy to stop this method with PK Fire or PK Thunder, but it's not if your opponent has the kind of projectile to strike you from across the stage. And it's not any better if you're both on a small stage.

Below I'm going to list the worst to the average. You take any pick of any character you want and try and write up something about how to deal with this tactic, as it gets old really quick and makes the game very boring to play. Here are a few characters that can do this sort of thing and those are:

Most Annoying
Pit
R.O.B.
Samus

Fairly Annoying
Diddy Kong
Falco
Fox
Ice Climbers?
Ivysaur
King DeDeDe
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Olimar? (Not very safe for him if he does this.)
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wolf
Yoshi

Least Annoying
Link (I'm not sure he can really do this easy since he's a bit heavy.)
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness
Zero Suit Samus

EDIT: Feel free to discuss any edge tactics that Ness can do to his opponents.

 

[Uffe]

Pit

Pit has multiple jumps, which means he can continuously grab the edge of the stage as many times as he wants without really having to risk a stock. Because of this, he is able to regain invincibility frames non-stop as well as fire his arrows at you, diminishing your shield. How do you deal with his arrows? Well, fortunately for you, a Ness main, you can absorb them without risking any punishment from Pit. If Pit is stubborn and won't get away from the edge, you may be able to dash off the stage and bair him, possibly causing a stage spike.

Thanks, Man of Popsicle

R.O.B.

R.O.B. can be really annoying with its Lasers, as well as its Gyro, if it has it with him. R.O.B.'s Laser has probably the longest range out of any projectile in Brawl. It is also able to aim it anywhere it pleases. Like Pit, R.O.B. can also continuously grab the edge for invincibility frames, making it difficult to actually strike him safely and effectively. Another similar thing is that Ness is able to absorb R.O.B.'s Laser. So if R.O.B. lacks its Gyro, then Ness is safe. But even for R.O.B., it needs to make precise aim in order for its projectile to harm Ness.

In order for Ness to get R.O.B. off the stage, he'll have to either wait out the Laser projectile until R.O.B. decides to get up, or he can get close and use an aerial attack such as bair, rising dair, nair and/or uair and possibly fair. This of course is a bit risky as all R.O.B. has to do is us his uair to drive you away.

Thanks, Eagleye893

Samus

[FONT="LetterOMatic!"]Diddy Kong[/FONT]

Falco

Fox

Ice Climbers

Ivysaur

King DeDeDe

Lucario

Luigi

Mario

Olimar

Pikachu

Toon Lnk Toon Link With his angry M2K look.

Wolf

Yoshi

Yoshi's edge game is know as the Edge Canceled Eggs (ECE). This is projectile Ness is unable to absorb, so it'll be difficult. Yoshi will drop off the edge, push away and throw an Egg at Ness and re-grab the edge, giving him invincibility frames. The Eggs are meant to pressure you away from the edge that'll allow Yoshi to return safely onto the stage. Stage returns usually consist of ledge drop > rising nair, dair, air dodge or reversed bair.

A good Yoshi will mix up his Egg toss strength and angle to make it harder for the opponent to block, dodge or reflect. If Ness is playing correctly, he won't get hit by the Eggs, though he may allow an opening for Yoshi to return. Ness can stand at the other side of the stage and use his PK Thunder, though it allows a free return for Yoshi, since the moment you get away from the edge, Yoshi will resurface onto the stage.

To throw of Yoshi, you could dash off the stage and use an aerial, though it's a bit risky as Yoshi could possibly climb from the edge and punish Ness. A bad Yoshi will usually use the ECE recklessly, leaving him open for a spike. Yoshi can only ECE about five times before he has to return to the ground. If he uses his Eggs quickly, he'll become easier to beat on the edge.

Thanks, Delta-cod

Lnk Link

Lucas

Mr. Game & Watch

Ness

Zero Suit Samus

 

[Eagleye893]

link can't really do anything unless he throws a bomb or uses an aerial, but both have little range. if they are fooling around with their tether and you are nearby, drop down and nair, then i would go with either a rising bair or something else to get them if they don't drop from the ledge. the link will probably try to get on the stage rather than fool around with the ledge, because they are mostly disadvantaged there. I don't know a ton about link, but thats what i've got...

pit... spam psi magnet.... it works! he has to approach or else he just heals you. if you're behind in stock or damage, then it's more difficult... maybe a full-hopped pkfire followed by either nair or fair or something.... stay at more of a 45 degree angle in relation to him and the stage... (the angle would be formed by the points (ness)(pit)(stage))

samus.... i hate samus.... I can't recommend anything

Rob.... psi magnet for lazers, airdodge or other thing to grab the gyro... if you can't, shield it then hit it with the bat so you have possession of it...

............................................................................... theres not much for this... its more of just deal with the annoyingness, slowly approach, get something off, etc. do so safely...


we should also include ness ledge tactics, as in what to do surrounding the ledge when you play ness... ive got a lot of stuff there.
psimag slightly above the ground moving towards the ledge allows you to grab it right out of the magnet.. same thing for pkflash but a little higher. pkt you need to learn how to time, but once you hit something you go into falling state and should be able to grab the ledge... sh dair with no fast fall will grab the ledge just at the right time if done correctly...pkfire stuff all depends.... learn to ledgestall with all aerials... theres more... but i can't remember it. everything is depending on the situation.

 

[Uffe]

I'll go ahead and add that later then. Feel free to provide whatever advice.

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi is quite low on the list. Hmmm.

Anyways, seeing as how I main Yoshi, I'll help you out here.

Yoshi's main ledge game revolves around Edge Canceled Eggs (ECE). Anyways, all he has to do is drop from the ledge(I push away) and throw an egg to regrab. The eggs are meant to pressure you away from the ledge or into a bad spot to allow an easier return to the stage. Stage returns usually consist of a ledge drop > Rising Nair, Dair, Air Dodge, or reversed Bair.

Dealing with this tactic varies from character to character. A good Yoshi mixes up his egg toss strength and angle to make them harder to shield/dodge/reflect. However, as long as Ness is playing correctly, he won't get hit by the eggs, though he may just allow an opening for yoshi to return. You can simply stand on the other end and PKT, though that essentially allows a free return for Yoshi, since the second you leave the ledge Yoshi will get up. You can reflect/powershield the eggs, though it can be tricky if Yoshi mixes up the eggs. Another option is to run off and aerial, though again, Yoshi can return or predict it and punish/get up.

Anyways, a bad Yoshi will usually ECE recklessly and leave himself open for a spike. A good one will mix up his egg shenanigans to get up safely.

It is important to remember that Yoshi can only use ECE about 5 times before having to return to the ground. If he uses all his eggs quickly, he becomes a lot easier to beat on the ledge.

 

[Uffe]

Do you think he'd be more annoying, Delta-cod? The reason I put him that low is because I'd find it more annoying if he were on stage. Of course when you get close enough, the Eggs aren't as annoying. I don't know. Where do you think he should be placed? Oh, and thanks for the info. That's pretty helpful.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

There's no such thing as too much PKT.
I use lot's of run off bairs and nairs as well.
If you want to take advice from me about anything take it about playing offstage or tips and strategies for stages. They're the only things I'm good at and it's how I win 95% of my matches.

And yo mah bizzoy, you be missin' some characters.
Any character in particular you want advice for?

 

[Uffe]

Just throw whatever advice you have that can be used against people who like to hang out and attack from the edge. I don't care which character you talk about. What I want to do is have some people say there part, I'll toss it up on the first page, etc. I'll most likely throw in some advice myself for certain characters.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

If you can name one character in specific who give you trouble I'll give you advice more in detail.

PIT:
Who plays as pit? Who even has pit match-up experience?

Pit's recovery options are far from absymal, but easily defended against.
Glide: If you send pit high and far, there's a very good chance they'll glide. Remember to watch out for his glide attack. When pit is gliding he has a blind spot below him and towards his torso. From underneath I reccomend a quick nair to repulse them, but Uair can work too, but not as well. When pit uses jumps to get back to the stage you can't do much if they go high, except PKT. Electric is super effective on flying. If pit goes low with his jumps, watch out for his fair, footstools work well enough, along with nair and dair. Attempt a rising Dair sourspot to repulse them further.

Always remember when playing pit you want them to have to use their wings of icarus to recover. Once this happens they're all yours. PKT, nair, anything but bair, uair or dair.
Try and get them recovering low. If you're hangig on the ledge when the gimp competition starts trick the pit user into wasting his jumps. Try things such as ledge drop air dodge and then come back with DJ'd nair or airdodge. Unless you're on final destination. After pit has to use wings of icarus drop back offstage and nair. Watch pit fall to his death. Recover.
If you want anything else just ask.

 

[Uffe]

^^^ I'm talking about when he's on the edge, spamming the crud out of his arrows. :S That's for that large bit of info, though. Sorry. :/ I'll most likely be getting most of my Pit experience from my brother.

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Well then just sit on the other side and use psi magnet.
Or counter pick a stage with a wall, temporary or not.
Like Pokemon Stadium.

 

[Robin1613]

^^^ I'm talking about when he's on the edge, spamming the crud out of his arrows. :S That's for that large bit of info, though. Sorry. :/ I'll most likely be getting most of my Pit experience from my brother.

I have some PIT experience, usually when theyre spamming arrows iI PSi magnet, and when he's attempting to get back on the stage with his up-b i hit him with PKT from behind him.

Not much, sorry if this doesn't help! -^_^-

 

[Uffe]

Well I don't really expect too much advice on how to deal with characters that have projectile Ness can absorb. It's quite obvious, but it's still good advice, I guess. If you can figure out how to get them off the edge, though, that's also good. Anyway, I'll throw some stuff up later tomorrow if I got time. In the mean time I'm off to bed. Good night, Ness mains!

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Oh yeah, if they're in the process of pulling an arrow an they're ba little ways away from the ledge you should have enough time to run off bair if you're close.

 

[Uffe]

Okay, I updated this. I took some of your guys info, and rewrote some of it in my own words, as well as placed some of my own info. I'll try to figure out how to deal with Samus.

 

[Delta-cod]

Do you think he'd be more annoying, Delta-cod? The reason I put him that low is because I'd find it more annoying if he were on stage. Of course when you get close enough, the Eggs aren't as annoying. I don't know. Where do you think he should be placed? Oh, and thanks for the info. That's pretty helpful.

Lol, well admittedly, his projectile is much more difficult to deal with because it can't be absorbed or easily reflected/shielded. It's not too annoying, but I'd say it's higher than some you put him above. =P

Most Annoying
Pit
R.O.B.
Samus

Fairly Annoying
Diddy Kong
Falco
Fox
Ice Climbers?
Ivysaur
King DeDeDe
Lucario
Luigi
Mario
Olimar? (Not very safe for him if he does this.)
Pikachu
Toon Link
Wolf
Yoshi

Least Annoying
Link (I'm not sure he can really do this easy since he's a bit heavy.)
Lucas
Mr. Game & Watch
Ness
Zero Suit Samus

Many of the characters above Yoshi you can get with PKT because their projectile doesn't reach all the way across, or absorb the projectile. They also can't keep regrabbing the ledge, you can just call the ledge grab rule if it goes to time. =P

My advice for dealing with ROB would be to stand across the stage and wait. Keep your PSIM up, and if he throws the gyro, drop it and catch the gyro. Now you can just sit in PSIM and all he can do is shoot absorbable lasers at you. =D

 

[Uffe]

Oh. Well that list was placed in alphabetical order. He'd no doubt be a lot higher. If I was going to put it in most difficult to deal with to the least difficult, I'd put Samus in first since she can just fire her Charge Shot, Missiles and Super Missiles, use her Screw Attack to safely re-grab the edge, go under the stage, etc. So really, I'm not saying Yoshi can't be as difficult. It's just all alphabetical order.

 

[Delta-cod]

Oh. I just noticed that. Lol. Alright then. XD

 

[Man of Popsicle]

Cool idea: You could link the reworded quotes to the original post.

 

[RogueThunder]

Pika's edge tactics can be a real pain to deal with for some characters (thankfully, Ness can deal with most everything pika can throw at him) and his quick attack is an excellent planking tool. Anther could probably play a whole match from the ledge (and win! That's how amazing he is), so its good to know what he is capable of and how to shut it down.

Pika will ledge drop and come at you with either fair>combo, uair below the ledge, nair, or dair and regrab if you get too close, but as long as you don't let your gaurd down this is np.

Tjolt can be ledge spammed very effectively, he can ledgedrop>dj>tjolt>regrab or land, and on some stages tjolt below the ledge and let it crawl back up to you, though this is fairly uncommon. Psi magnet/bat limit tjolts use because of its slow speed.

Pikachu has a fun little technique called the thunder stall, and the name is selfexplanitory, thunder>regrab. there are variations but all include thunder, and they are generally more for edgegaurding.

In addition to the thunder stall, certain stages allow a skull bash stall, which is reaaaaally hard to get hit by.

Finally is the quick attack. This allows pika to plank in the weirdest of ways as well as quick attack cancel, which lets him use arials on you .

All in all, its a good idea to keep your distance when pika starts planking and force him to cease and decist with pk fire, thunder, and psi magnet. Yo yo spiking isn't the best idea and appoaching with an attack is exactly what pika wants you to do.

 

[Uffe]

You guys. I just checked this thread and I was wondering, should this be turned into a different topic that'll give us an idea of when Ness' attacks kill or no? It could be a lot of work, but I'd be happy to post it on the first page.

 

[Eagleye893]

I would like that, but we could discuss tons of things here. We should call it somehing like a general research/consensus thread. We should probably start with the most simple of things, like upair, utilt, fully charged pkflash, usmash(back hit so we don't hit with the charge), and other things on every character. Fresh moves o'course. After all that is tested, try those with di if you can... I can't test di stuff, but I could get started on other things w/o di.

 

[Uffe]

DI, no DI, it doesn't bother me. I guess we could make a list with DI, no DI and/or Momentum Canceling. I'd need more people to participate, though. :/ I don't have a Wii and my brother isn't letting me use his anymore.

 

[TheVince]

I would like that, but we could discuss tons of things here. We should call it somehing like a general research/consensus thread.

^YES, the Ness boards definitely need one of these.

Research threads help discover a lot of new stuff... especially if you have someone that is willing to put in time to research stuff.

</obvious point>

Hey look someone else from Arizona... that seems to not like Pika :s

I can help due research btw, if you tell me what to do lol.

 

[Uffe]

I'm talking about what percent Ness' opponents die, by different attacks, if those attacks have KO power at all. Like Ness' PK Fire for example. I doubt that'll kill unless it's at extremely high percent. I guess with DI, without DI and momentum canceling. Those sorts of things. I'll have to check out that Pikachu topic that you posted.

 

[Tiersr4Queers]

Luigi: most luigi's fireball spam 4rm edge, no problm psi magnet. never chase luigi off stage...a smart luigi will tornado thus gimping u. play smart and predict him if hes trying to get on stage use psi fire α, fair him or nair best thing to do is keep him off stage anyway. anothr thing.. most weeg's want u too get close to them whn their edge gaming so dey can set up their a-up b. (e.g) 4rm edge/fireball - jab up b(*****).

 

[Mac_77]

For most characters who spam projectiles that PSI Magnet can absorb, they try to use the projectiles to get closer because due to the delay PSI Magnet has when you take it down. What most of these people do not know is that Ness can roll out of Magnet when you press right or left right or sidestep when you press down (like if you had your shield up) as the projectile comes in contact with PSI Magnet. I usually roll toward them and surprise them with a quick NAir or Usmash/Utilt (As this point they're usually above me. This is extremely helpful at keeping the pressure on and limiting their use of Magnet-friendly projectiles.

 

[Mac_77]

I was looking at multiple threads at once and posted this info on the wrong one. Oh well...

But it's useful nonetheless...

 

[Mac_77]

Well, for edge game Ness' Dtilt bones over many characters with one midair jump, but it does fairly decent damage to those with more jumps though ineffective at killing Those characters. For them I just PK fire and stomp away. But most characters will just lose their second jump as they try to jump while being kicked (duh). This works extremely well when you use an aerial off the edge after being caught in it and they do not grab the edge. using NAir is the most effective to...

A: Swat them away from the edge even further, getting back on the stage and doing it againt to keep the pressure on.

B: Hit them into the stage (if the stage being FD, Battlefield, or Smashville) and spiking them. (This also works with BAir) Both work on characters who tether when you hit them as the latch on tre edge.

C: If they moved away from the edge after being kicked to prevent getting caught below the stage you can fall down, FAir, then jump Nair to push them away. Or you can jump, Fair, then jump DAir after the FAir (if you are feeling risky and want to get that awesome spiking combo off to just scratch off one of their lives quick enough.)

Further this works similarly to the DTilt strategy above. Grab your opponent on the very edge, after they already used their midair jump. Then headbutt him until the opponent is released and sent down off of the edge, and they can't jump again (sometimes they are holding the joystick in the direction of the edge forward and usually get caught under the edge too.) So you jump off and do A, B, C, or whatever else you discover works in this situation.

I have trouble doing this to characters like G&W, Sonic, and R.O.B.

But it works extremely well on the rest of the characters with only one midair jump.

 

[Delta-cod]

Hey hey now, Yoshi's only DJ will get right past all that. =P

For those problem characters: It's because their recovery really let's them get around it. Sonic can Spring over you. G&W can go THROUGH the dtilt wall, and ROB just recovers high, lol.

 

[Uffe]

Mac 77! Don't double or triple post. And welcome to the boards. I got owned by Delta-cod's down air from the edge. ); I will win eventually! I just need to play you some more! O:

 

[Delta-cod]

Lol, I don't remember Dair ****** you. XD

I am offering friendlies/MMs to anyone if they're attending Pound or Viridian. I'll teach you guys the MU. XD

I love Ness's Dtilt. Good times. It's even BETTER ON WIFI HYESZ.

But yeah, for a lot of character's Edge games, PSIM will beat their projectile spam and otherwise you can pressure them with dtilt, PKF (to spike <3), PKT, etc. Only a couple people have particularly troublesome edge games. =[

 

[MX778]

Ness' D-tilt is broken. : p

 

[Uffe]

Lol, I don't remember Dair ****** you. XD

I am offering friendlies/MMs to anyone if they're attending Pound or Viridian. I'll teach you guys the MU. XD

I love Ness's Dtilt. Good times. It's even BETTER ON WIFI HYESZ.

But yeah, for a lot of character's Edge games, PSIM will beat their projectile spam and otherwise you can pressure them with dtilt, PKF (to spike <3), PKT, etc. Only a couple people have particularly troublesome edge games. =[

Your rising down air got me up to 36% in no time. I fought MX over here, too. You two have great Yoshi's. And you two are difficult! You seem to get me a lot with your grabs, though, Delta.

 

[Ref]

Ness is crazy annoying...

edge grab to Nair or B air right in your face when recoverying? that's hilarious...

I do it to other ness'es and that moving fair isn't going to stop my feet.