Edge Hogging, Wavedashing, Shorthopping, and L-Cancelling.

[ItsChon]

Is Fair SHFFL camping on Marth actually effective? I started really trying it, now that I have FD and I can't seem to be doing it right? Should I just abandon this strategy?

What are some quick combos that I can do to try and refine my punish game? Most of the time I usually just end up going for an Fsmash if I see someone open, which usually knocks them off stage so I can start edgeguarding them, but other than that it doesn't open much. I feel like my punish game is really week, and outside of doing that/juggling people in the air with uptilts and Uairs, it doesn't have much to it. Any suggestions?

 

[Spak]

Take all of my Marth advice with a grain of salt because I've only put in a significant number of hours studying Falco, Pikachu, Falcon, and Roy.

Is Fair SHFFL camping on Marth actually effective? I started really trying it, now that I have FD and I can't seem to be doing it right? Should I just abandon this strategy?

You could just be fairing too early. Marth's Fair has a small amount of endlag, so I've seen a lot of people use SH double Fair. You could also do legde-cancelled Fairs, but those are more situational from what I've seen. Also, I think SHFFLd retreating Fairs are good for spacing.

What are some quick combos that I can do to try and refine my punish game? Most of the time I usually just end up going for an Fsmash if I see someone open, which usually knocks them off stage so I can start edgeguarding them, but other than that it doesn't open much. I feel like my punish game is really week, and outside of doing that/juggling people in the air with uptilts and Uairs, it doesn't have much to it. Any suggestions?

Massive had a really good post about Marth's punish game earlier in the thread. Also, Ken Combo is a legendary way to kill; look it up if you haven't ever seen it.

 

[ItsChon]

How in gods name do I pivot Fsmash? I can Pivot grab fairly easily and fair consistently but Pivot Fsmashing man, it's so hard. Multiple videos describe different ways to do it. Any tips?

 

[ItsChon]

Sorry for the double post, but got some more questions.

When I'm chain grabbing spacies I can pretty much get to the 22% mark just fine, but then it comes time for me to uptilt and regrab, it's really wonky. The first time I do it at around 24% it never really works. Then once I regrab and try doing the uptilt again, it works fine. Am I doing something wrong here? I know this information is kind of useless without a video but any ideas to why my uptilt regrab isn't working at the lower percentages would be helpful.

Also, is there anyway I can get practice on characters like Jigglypuff, Peach, Shiek, and Icies by myself? I mean, I can grind out all the Spacies/CF I want, but Zelda doesn't want to turn into Shiek, while Jiggly, Peach, and Icies all have special mechanics that aren't represented by the AI. Any tips on how to practice these match ups by myself?

 

[Spak]

How in gods name do I pivot Fsmash? I can Pivot grab fairly easily and fair consistently but Pivot Fsmashing man, it's so hard. Multiple videos describe different ways to do it. Any tips?

Pivot smashes out of DD, there is one frame where you can hit the C-Stick in the direction you want to smash. I've never had to master (because Falcon's smashes are so slow), so I think AirFair would be more qualified to answer that.

When I'm chain grabbing spacies I can pretty much get to the 22% mark just fine, but then it comes time for me to uptilt and regrab, it's really wonky. The first time I do it at around 24% it never really works. Then once I regrab and try doing the uptilt again, it works fine. Am I doing something wrong here? I know this information is kind of useless without a video but any ideas to why my uptilt regrab isn't working at the lower percentages would be helpful.

Yet again, not a Marth main, so I'm not sure about this. You might be having trouble with it because of their DI and chaingrabbing spacies with Marth at lower percents actually has some pretty small input windows to succeed. Anyways, another AirFair question.

Also, is there anyway I can get practice on characters like Jigglypuff, Peach, Shiek, and Icies by myself? I mean, I can grind out all the Spacies/CF I want, but Zelda doesn't want to turn into Shiek, while Jiggly, Peach, and Icies all have special mechanics that aren't represented by the AI. Any tips on how to practice these match ups by myself?

Unfortunately, you can't simulate the techniques real people utilize while playing those characters. The best thing I can advise is put them on levels 1-3 or 7 (they've been proven to have most human-like DI) and just use them for combo practice. They still aren't a substitute for real people but unless you have someone else that constantly plays Melee competitively at your house or have partner on Netplay (with your GC adapter), there really isn't a good alternative (although training in 20XX might also not be a bad idea).

 

[ItsChon]

Spak my hero.

Pivot smashes out of DD, there is one frame where you can hit the C-Stick in the direction you want to smash. I've never had to master (because Falcon's smashes are so slow), so I think AirFair would be more qualified to answer that.

Yea, I know it's out of a DD and that's what I've been trying but I can't seem to get it. Whether it's cause I have poor DD or because I'm just inputting it to slow, I don't know.

Yet again, not a Marth main, so I'm not sure about this. You might be having trouble with it because of their DI and chaingrabbing spacies with Marth at lower percents actually has some pretty small input windows to succeed. Anyways, another AirFair question.

Yep.

Unfortunately, you can't simulate the techniques real people utilize while playing those characters. The best thing I can advise is put them on levels 1-3 or 7 (they've been proven to have most human-like DI) and just use them for combo practice. They still aren't a substitute for real people but unless you have someone else that constantly plays Melee competitively at your house or have partner on Netplay (with your GC adapter), there really isn't a good alternative (although training in 20XX might also not be a bad idea).

I figured.

Thanks for the answer Spak.

 

[Spak]

Thanks for the answer Spak.

Glad to be of assistance.

 

[ItsChon]

Are there any other obvious techs that I should be working on? I mean, I know I still need to grind out the techs I supposedly know to frame perfection, but anything else I can try learning would be nice. Due to me being forced to practice on Lvl 3 CPU's I can't really improve my game sense but I still want to at least try and get better.

The worst part is, is the fact there could be a really good Smash scene in my area. Except all the Smashers I know are in love with the 64 version. And the worst part is some of them can even kick my ass in it really bad. If only they like Melee. RIP.

But yea, any suggestions are welcome. I currently know,

Wavedash. Waveland. Dash Dance. Pivot Grab. Pivot Fsmash(Working on it anyway.) Spacie Chainthrow. Ken Combo. SHFFL. UAir Juggling. Ledgehog Bair. Side-B Recovery Stall. Etc. I know this is more of a Marth question, but any help is appreciated.

 

[Spak]

Are there any other obvious techs that I should be working on? I mean, I know I still need to grind out the techs I supposedly know to frame perfection, but anything else I can try learning would be nice. Due to me being forced to practice on Lvl 3 CPU's I can't really improve my game sense but I still want to at least try and get better.

Go to weeklies if you have any near you. You might not even know that weeklies and tournaments are near you if you haven't searched. If you've searched hard and still can't find anything, that's rather unfortunate, but don't be discouraged; you can start a new scene in your area.

The worst part is, is the fact there could be a really good Smash scene in my area. Except all the Smashers I know are in love with the 64 version. And the worst part is some of them can even kick my *** in it really bad. If only they like Melee. RIP.

64 has a lot of ensured combos and kills off of one grab because of the lack of wall techs. For that reason, DL is the only neutral stage, which I find it funny that only one neutral is allowed. 64 is the most balanced Smash game of all time, however, and the only bad character is Samus.

But yea, any suggestions are welcome. I currently know,

Wavedash. Waveland. Dash Dance. Pivot Grab. Pivot Fsmash(Working on it anyway.) Spacie Chainthrow. Ken Combo. SHFFL. UAir Juggling. Ledgehog Bair. Side-B Recovery Stall. Etc. I know this is more of a Marth question, but any help is appreciated.

You didn't list L-Cancelling. That's an important one.

EDIT: Never mind, that would be included in SHFFL. Do you know how to ledgestall and retain invincibility?

 

[ItsChon]

Go to weeklies if you have any near you. You might not even know that weeklies and tournaments are near you if you haven't searched. If you've searched hard and still can't find anything, that's rather unfortunate, but don't be discouraged; you can start a new scene in your area.


64 has a lot of ensured combos and kills off of one grab because of the lack of wall techs. For that reason, DL is the only neutral stage, which I find it funny that only one neutral is allowed. 64 is the most balanced Smash game of all time, however, and the only bad character is Samus.


You didn't list L-Cancelling. That's an important one.

EDIT: Never mind, that would be included in SHFFL. Do you know how to ledgestall and retain invincibility?

I know it's a thing for characters like Shiek and Yoshi, but I'm didn't know Marth could do it. As for L-Cancelling, it's one of those things I could do for you 50 times in training mode but often forget to do in matches unless I'm actively thinking about it. WIP.

 

[JayFizzy]

L-Cancelling - Not going to lie, this still confuses me. I would get 20xx but for two reasons, one, it's 20xx and ain't nobody like that bull****

lol stay bad

 

[Spak]

I know it's a thing for characters like Shiek and Yoshi, but I'm didn't know Marth could do it. As for L-Cancelling, it's one of those things I could do for you 50 times in training mode but often forget to do in matches unless I'm actively thinking about it. WIP.

Well, L-Cancelling is really important to do in matches, so you minght want to work on implementing it. Marth can ledge drop->DJ and refresh ledge invincibility before his invinvability from grabbing the ledge previously runs out if you time it correctly.

 

[ItsChon]

lol stay bad

'twas a joke.

Well, L-Cancelling is really important to do in matches, so you minght want to work on implementing it. Marth can ledge drop->DJ and refresh ledge invincibility before his invinvability from grabbing the ledge previously runs out if you time it correctly.

DJ?

 

[Spak]

DJ?

Double Jump.

EDIT: Also, you should work on JC Grabs (Jump-Cancelled Grabs) if you haven't already got that down. Just grab during jumpsquat to do this and it makes you do a standing grab while sliding forward, giving you range close to that of the dash grab and has less endlag.

 

[ItsChon]

Double Jump.

EDIT: Also, you should work on JC Grabs (Jump-Cancelled Grabs) if you haven't already got that down. Just grab during jumpsquat to do this and it makes you do a standing grab while sliding forward, giving you range close to that of the dash grab and has less endlag.

I heard about JC Grabs, but aren't Pivot Grabs faster?

 

[Spak]

I heard about JC Grabs, but aren't Pivot Grabs faster?

You don't turn around with JC, but they are pretty much the same speed (possibly one frame difference because of jumpsquat with JC). That being said, you stay stationary in your grabbing animation while performing pivot grabs, but you slide forward (if you were traveling forward) while performing a JC grab.

 

[MookieRah]

Lots of questions being asked in this thread, so I didn't bother looking at everything. I can tell that you definitely want to learn, and that you are new, so this stuff is what you need to hear right now.

In order to be able to do what you want to do with good execution, you will have to overtrain it. Basically this just means that you practice it to the point that it doesn't take any thought to do it. The thing is, almost everything needs to be overtrained. A lot of people learn to shffl against a lvl 1 computer and when it becomes easy they think they have mastered it, but they aren't even close. You have to master shffl's in different contexts and different situations as well. For starters, shffling against a shielded opponent requires a different timing. Also, being able to shffl jumping forward, jumping back, jumping straight up, jumping straight up and then moving forward or back, also need to be practiced. Then, after you master this in practice mode, you need to put in just as much time implementing it, or using it against real people. You can also start this with computers, and it does help, but you need to have some experience against human players as well.

This includes more work than most people think in order to build strong execution, but it is a requirement to play this game well.

Also, there is a lot of fundamental tech most people don't think to practice. For example, can you reliably turn around utilt on command quickly? This goes for all the tilts, but I think most people find the utilt to be the most difficult due to the tendency for new players to jump accidentally. Don't move on to crazy wavelanding and such before you master the basics like this.

So hopefully you have some ideas regarding how you should go about things now. Remember that it's not enough to be able to do this stationary in practice mode, you have to do this in as many unique situations as you can in order to be able to pull it off on command.

 

[ItsChon]

You don't turn around with JC, but they are pretty much the same speed (possibly one frame difference because of jumpsquat with JC). That being said, you stay stationary in your grabbing animation while performing pivot grabs, but you slide forward (if you were traveling forward) while performing a JC grab.

Will do.

Lots of questions being asked in this thread, so I didn't bother looking at everything. I can tell that you definitely want to learn, and that you are new, so this stuff is what you need to hear right now.

In order to be able to do what you want to do with good execution, you will have to overtrain it. Basically this just means that you practice it to the point that it doesn't take any thought to do it. The thing is, almost everything needs to be overtrained. A lot of people learn to shffl against a lvl 1 computer and when it becomes easy they think they have mastered it, but they aren't even close. You have to master shffl's in different contexts and different situations as well. For starters, shffling against a shielded opponent requires a different timing. Also, being able to shffl jumping forward, jumping back, jumping straight up, jumping straight up and then moving forward or back, also need to be practiced. Then, after you master this in practice mode, you need to put in just as much time implementing it, or using it against real people. You can also start this with computers, and it does help, but you need to have some experience against human players as well.

This includes more work than most people think in order to build strong execution, but it is a requirement to play this game well.

Also, there is a lot of fundamental tech most people don't think to practice. For example, can you reliably turn around utilt on command quickly? This goes for all the tilts, but I think most people find the utilt to be the most difficult due to the tendency for new players to jump accidentally. Don't move on to crazy wavelanding and such before you master the basics like this.

So hopefully you have some ideas regarding how you should go about things now. Remember that it's not enough to be able to do this stationary in practice mode, you have to do this in as many unique situations as you can in order to be able to pull it off on command.

Thanks for taking the time to write this big ass post. You're right in literally everything you said, and I might actually have to reevaluate some of the stuff I claimed to know. While a lot of the techs I listed, I know I still have a long way to go before implementing them against human players, and implementing them well; I should probably keep working on lots of the basic fundamentals. Thanks for writing this post, really made me excited to keep training, for a little bit anyway.