Echo Fighters for Each of Pokemon Trainer's 3 Characters?

LightKnight

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#1
Like many, I've been hoping for each of the pokemon from PT to be individually playable and for a new down-B to be added to each of them. Whether this happened through a simple feature to allow this or all new echo fighters perhaps with slightly altered stats does not matter much to me.
However, lets say they became echo fighters. This would allow the balancing team to make changes to their individual movesets as they see fit without conversely making changes to PT who is 3 characters in one with likely bigger weaknesses between the three than the individual echoes. This would even allow them to make slightly different looking versions of these pokemon...

Starting with Charizard, aesthetically they could make him one of his mega forms. Such as his blue and black mega X form. Of course, in Smash 4 he became this in his Final Smash but I can't see him having it the exact same in Ultimate with the way they do most Final Smashes anyway so I'd say that doesn't matter. Instead he'd get an entirely new one. Aesthetically, his flames and fire attacks would be blue to match with the fire coming from his mouth.
As for his new down-B, while they could bring back Rock Smash I think I'd rather replace it with a similar and even better move called 'Flame Burst' still meant for armoring but with overall better area of affect.
As to whether any of his current moves or stats would change now that he'd be a solo character I'd leave up to you Charizard enthusiasts.

Ivysaur is kinda tougher for me to figure out how to do differently so if anyone has any ideas I'd be curious to know what they are.
The additional move could potentially be several different things. One option some will be familiar with is 'Solar Beam' where it acts similar to Wario's waft in that it charges overtime. When released though, it fires a beam. Perhaps aimed diagonally? This seems a bit redundant to Ivysaur's kit though. Not that Ivysaur needs much, as the kit is already fairly well rounded.
Another idea would be 'Poison Powder' which would be a thick purple burst of powder that poisons the opponent if caught in its somewhat lingering hitbox but leaves Ivysaur slightly vulnerable if not landing the initial burst. The move would have some noticeable start-up lag too making it more of a prediction tool or another overall way to control space. I can also see this giving Ivysaur more options to their ledge game, similar to how Piranha Plant has a 'poison' cloud it can use for ledge-guarding.
Other potentially more interesting moves that could be used instead would be Leech Seed, Sleep Powder, and Growth. However, thematically, Poison Powder does fit with Ivysaur's dual Poison typing.
Again, I'm curious what you Ivysaur enthusiasts would do to its moves/stats, if anything, as a solo character.

For Squirtle, maybe this would be a stretch but they could make it into wartortle instead, keeping it the same size as it could be a 'young' version of the pokemon. Or just give it some glasses and say its a member from Squirtle Squad. Yeah.. That could work too…
For its new down-B it could have 'Bubble Beam' which would be a medium ranged attack meant primarily for confirming KOs at hight percent if used wittingly. Grounded, it would shoot forward but in the air would shoot downward and suspend the pokemon for a brief second, giving nice coverage below against chasing opponents without risking a down-air hurt-box.
As for its existing moves, side-B could be adjusted to be more like PM. The up-B recovery could be given a tad more vertical rise to help in getting back to stage more often as you can't switch into Ivysaur anymore. Water Gun could be given a slight amount of damage much like how Greninja's Hydro Pump does damage. The final move I'd change is make down-tilt have more horizontal knockback, making it KO earlier and set up more often for sweet edgegaurds along with the buffed recovery.
As far as stats go, I'd add more of a slippery ground movement to the pokemon as it makes perfect sense with riding the water wave during dash. I'd also slightly increase the movement speed of the dash. I might even give a faster fast-fall but this depends on how much it'd mess with Squirtle's current combos as I'm not very knowledgable on them. But that might not even be necessary with all the other suggested changes in play.

What are your thoughts? Have different ideas? Or does most of this seem spot on for you?
 

1FC0

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#2
This would be useless to me personally. I think that the 3 Pokemon on themselves are too boring. It's playing them together and switching up styles that makes the character fun for me.

However many people seem to prefer playing the Pokemon separate. So I think this would be a great idea that would please many fans.

Having Charizard Mega Evolve as his entry animation and then playing with one of his 2 Mega's would be really neat. In the normal games Pokemon stay Mega for the whole duration of the battle until they faint so it's not too weird either. They could even let charizard mega evolve on his respawn platform as a special respawn animation much like how he now has a special respawn animation where he comes out of his Pokeball.

I'm not sure what to do with the other Pokemon though. I guess Squirtle could replaced by Wartortle. Wartortle is twice as tall as Squirtle is but the Squirtle in Smash is himself actually much larger than Squirtle really is so they could just make Wartortle his real size and then he would be about equally tall as Squirtle is in Smash.

Ivysaur could be replaced by Venusaur, but I think he could also be replaced by some other grass type. Carnivine and the Bellsprout line are all capable of learning Ivysaur's specials, Solar Beam, and Stun Spore.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#3
This would be useless to me personally. I think that the 3 Pokemon on themselves are too boring. It's playing them together and switching up styles that makes the character fun for me.

However many people seem to prefer playing the Pokemon separate. So I think this would be a great idea that would please many fans.

Having Charizard Mega Evolve as his entry animation and then playing with one of his 2 Mega's would be really neat. In the normal games Pokemon stay Mega for the whole duration of the battle until they faint so it's not too weird either. They could even let charizard mega evolve on his respawn platform as a special respawn animation much like how he now has a special respawn animation where he comes out of his Pokeball.

I'm not sure what to do with the other Pokemon though. I guess Squirtle could replaced by Wartortle. Wartortle is twice as tall as Squirtle is but the Squirtle in Smash is himself actually much larger than Squirtle really is so they could just make Wartortle his real size and then he would be about equally tall as Squirtle is in Smash.

Ivysaur could be replaced by Venusaur, but I think he could also be replaced by some other grass type. Carnivine and the Bellsprout line are all capable of learning Ivysaur's specials, Solar Beam, and Stun Spore.
I think the cleanest solution would just be to replace them with similar pokemon from other gens. I know (especially now after the Pokemon trailer) Charizard is over-used and is Gen 1 pandering, but he's the only one I want to stay the same since he was solo in SSB4.
 

LightKnight

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#4
I think the cleanest solution would just be to replace them with similar pokemon from other gens. I know (especially now after the Pokemon trailer) Charizard is over-used and is Gen 1 pandering, but he's the only one I want to stay the same since he was solo in SSB4.
What would you suggest? Cause the best I can think of for Squirtle and Ivysaur is Marill and Grotle.
Marill I could definitely see but Grotle while maybe having the general shape and most of the moves, does not have access to Vine Whip at any point in the games overall history.
I'm no gen-1nner but I personally really like the idea of Squirtle being turned into Wartortle as an echo. Its Ivysaur that gives a lot of the trouble. And to be an echo it probably shouldn't be differing in size.
 
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1FC0

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#8
Daisy is not actually shorter, she just has animations that create the illusion of it.
I was also referring to her holding out her hands which makes her (i.e. her hitbox) wider.

Either way what you say makes sense, since her attacks still have equal range to Peach's apparently. Lucina had less range than Marth in SSB4 because she was shorter.
 
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Guynamednelson

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#9
I think a big problem with PT echoes is that Ivysaur is the least echoable and has no real reason to be echoed, unlike Squirtle who isn't Japan's favorite unevolved water starter, and Charizard who lost Rock Smash.

And even then, the former has a problem: While Squirtle now spends a lot less time in its shell than in Brawl, and Dark Samus proves that certain animations can have radical differences (her rolls), Withdraw still features a reference to turtles getting flipped over if you footstool him. Something that wouldn't make sense with penguins or otters.
 
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1FC0

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#10
Withdraw still features a reference to turtles getting flipped over if you footstool him. Something that wouldn't make sense with penguins or otters.
They could easily remove that. The flipping over rarely happens in actual play and is definitely not something that defines how Squirtle plays.

Squirtle's echo —if it's not Wartortle but another water starter— could just use a move in Smahs Bros. that works similar to Withdraw but with minor differences just like how Pichu's and Pikachu's ^B are actually completely different unrelated moves in their canon but works similarly in Smash Bros..
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#11
I think a big problem with PT echoes is that Ivysaur is the least echoable and has no real reason to be echoed, unlike Squirtle who isn't Japan's favorite unevolved water starter, and Charizard who lost Rock Smash.

And even then, the former has a problem: While Squirtle now spends a lot less time in its shell than in Brawl, and Dark Samus proves that certain animations can have radical differences (her rolls), Withdraw still features a reference to turtles getting flipped over if you footstool him. Something that wouldn't make sense with penguins or otters.
Who even says they have to have the same moveset? I think something similar is completely fine.

Here's just a quick mock up, off the top of my head
Totodile: water gun, aqua jet, waterfall, ??? for down B
Bayleef: Razor lead, vine whip, solar beam, synthesis or poison powder
Typhlosion: Assuming we don't get solo Zard, Typhlosion is just Charizard but with one jump and maybe like...lava plume as a recovery instead. And I'd love Flame Wheel instead of Flare Blitz. And addine Fire Blast would be super cool also.
 
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LightKnight

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#12
Who even says they have to have the same moveset? I think something similar is completely fine.

Here's just a quick mock up, off the top of my head
Totodile: water gun, aqua jet, waterfall, ??? for down B
Bayleef: Razor lead, vine whip, solar beam, synthesis or poison powder
Typhlosion: Assuming we don't get solo Zard, Typhlosion is just Charizard but with one jump and maybe like...lava plume as a recovery instead. And I'd love Flame Wheel instead of Flare Blitz. And addine Fire Blast would be super cool also.
Totodile totally seems realistic as an echo (but then I'd be sad you can't play as Squirtle with his somewhat different moveset).
My only main concern with Bayleef is the elongated head sense all echoes seem to have the same proportions.
Typhlosion is actually a pokemon I've really been wanting as a playable character and your overall suggestion of him I'd be totally on board with! It'd kinda be weird as an echo though as they do have kinda different proportions and likely some of Typhlosion's normal attacks would be different from Charizard.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#13
Totodile totally seems realistic as an echo (but then I'd be sad you can't play as Squirtle with his somewhat different moveset).
My only main concern with Bayleef is the elongated head sense all echoes seem to have the same proportions.
Typhlosion is actually a pokemon I've really been wanting as a playable character and your overall suggestion of him I'd be totally on board with! It'd kinda be weird as an echo though as they do have kinda different proportions and likely some of Typhlosion's normal attacks would be different from Charizard.
I don't think they'd be all that different. I imagine Typhlosion's idol stance would be standing straight up, and his dash could be on all fours. taking that into account, it's not much different from 'Zard (since Zard kinda flies horizontally).

Bayleef I could kinda understand. Maybe they can give Bayleef more power in exchange for having a bigger hitbox (a stronger Ivysaur, gross). They would have to either find a way for Bayleef to shoot out spores or change Bayleef's up and down air, along with up smash. But those are just semantics.
 

1FC0

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#14
Apparently Bayleef is 1.2 meter and Ivysaur is 1 meter. They're not that different. Especially not in a a game where they doubled Squirtle's size. Bayleef also learn Poison Powder which could replace Ivysaur's Stun Spore. Maybe they could have it come from his leaf? Like him whipping with his leaf and creating a kind of Poison Powder gust instead of a Stun Spore explosion.
 

LightKnight

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#15
Oh, interesting. Its mostly just the proportions that are somewhat different. The whole poison powder idea makes sense to me. I suppose those changed attacks would have less focus on knockback and more on damage, especially overtime from the poison.
 

Ben Holt

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#16
Dragonite seems like the obvious Charizard echo.
He's got the popularity to back him up, and he could use two of Charizard's custom moves from Smash 4 to differentiate himself.
Side B would be Dragon Rush, which was basically a straight up superior option to Flare Blitz in 4, doing less damage, but extremely spammable due to less endlag and not dealing recoil.
His Up B could be Rising Cyclone, which was a shorter range Fly with a much higher KO power.
 

Call_Me_Red

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#17
Dragonite seems like the obvious Charizard echo.
He's got the popularity to back him up, and he could use two of Charizard's custom moves from Smash 4 to differentiate himself.
Side B would be Dragon Rush, which was basically a straight up superior option to Flare Blitz in 4, doing less damage, but extremely spammable due to less endlag and not dealing recoil.
His Up B could be Rising Cyclone, which was a shorter range Fly with a much higher KO power.
While I think that's a solid idea, I think 90% of Charizard's appeal is that it's Charizard. If instead of Solo Zard in 4 they had Solo Dragonite...well, I wouldn't have been a Dragonite main. I think that's my biggest issue and why we probably won't get Solo Zard. He's already 1/3 of another character, so I don't think we'll get him as one whole character.
 
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LightKnight

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#18
Dragonite seems like the obvious Charizard echo.
He's got the popularity to back him up, and he could use two of Charizard's custom moves from Smash 4 to differentiate himself.
Side B would be Dragon Rush, which was basically a straight up superior option to Flare Blitz in 4, doing less damage, but extremely spammable due to less endlag and not dealing recoil.
His Up B could be Rising Cyclone, which was a shorter range Fly with a much higher KO power.
While I think that's a solid idea, I think 90% of Charizard's appeal is that it's Charizard. If instead of Solo Zard in 4 they had Solo Dragonite...well, I wouldn't have been a Dragonite main. I think that's my biggest issue and why we probably won't get Solo Zard. He's already 1/3 of another character, so I don't think we'll get him as one whole character.
While that is a legitimate point and probably true for most people Call_Me_Red, I'll just say I'm on the side that would love Dragonite to be playable as that is one of my favorite pokemon among some others. Just goes to show, if they went with the idea of adding the separated fighters from Pokemon Trainer then they should still be the same pokemon. Any other versions of them that are an entirely different pokemon as 'echoes' would certainly be welcomed though.

I really like the idea of taking custom moves from the past game to change some of the specials. Leaves in question though what the down special should be. Not very familiar with the custom moves in that game. As far as its pokemon moveset is concerned, maybe Hurricane? Could act as a defensive armored attack that fully surrounds Dragonite in a small wind tornado while stopping all momentum. Or they could do something a little different and give Thunder Wave which could work kinda like Mewtwo's down special but with an electrical stun effect instead with less time to react for a follow-up attack.
Dragonite probably wouldn't have a sweetspot on any of his tail moves like Charizard and would have a normalized knock-back all across his tail hits much like Lucina gets with her sword compared to Marth. Perhaps Dragonite would even get an extra jump or two? Overall, Dragonite would make for a more 'balanced' fighter compared to Charizard.
 
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#19
My idea on how this could work.

The trainer is replaced with a character I would like to call pokemon rival
His main design is based of blue and he would have taunts and voice clips that make him sound cool, badass and slightly arrogant. Maybe, instead of the female alt, he could have an Us/Um alt with the beach shorts and the sunglasses.

for his three Pokemon, I thought I could get interesting.

:001::005::009:

Thus he has a first evolution that is strong against PT (hence :001:being effective against :007:)
he has a second evolution that is strong against PT (hence :005: being effective against :002:)
He also has a third evolution that is strong against PT (hence :009: trumping :006:)

:001: Is the same weight and speed as :ultsquirtle: but with the same moveset as :ultivysaur: with seed bomb for neutral special
:005: Is the same weight and speed as :ultivysaur: but with the same moveset as :ultcharizard:with slash for up special (how are you supposed to fly without wings?)
:009: is the same weight and speed as :ultcharizard: but with the same moveset as :ultsquirtle: with aqua jet for side special.

for the final smash, something involving the rivals other Pokemon form the games, eg. :018: :065: Or :128: or maybe something involving the eeveelutions.
 
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LightKnight

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#20
My idea on how this could work.
The trainer is replaced with a character I would like to call pokemon rival
His main design is based of blue and he would have taunts and voice clips that make him sound cool, badass and slightly arrogant. Maybe, instead of the female alt, he could have an Us/Um alt with the beach shorts and the sunglasses.
for his three Pokemon, I thought I could get interesting.
:001::005::009:
Oh, interesting. Although, the idea of the topic was to make echo fighters of the existing characters and what that may look like.
That said, this is still a cool idea you've presented here so thanks for sharing anyway.
 
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