Easier wavedashing?

[KayB]

You know what's worse than Melee elitists? Brawl elitists who assume that every person who plays Melee competitively is a *** and then goes on to assume that he's greater and more mature than them.

what if they just made it so that everyone could wavedash as easily as luigi?

Because that would make certain characters over powered and others much worse. Wavedashing depends on a number of factors including traction, so altering those factors could potentially make a character a lot worse (or better) than he normally is.

 

[Medaka444]

You know what's worse than Melee elitists? Brawl elitists who assume that every person who plays Melee competitively is a *** and then goes on to assume that he's greater and more mature than them.

I wouldn't say worse, but there is definitely some truth to that. I was like that for a while because of some Hype Backlash against how people said Melee makes Brawl look like a terrible Fighter. I wonder if something like that could happen in reverse.

 

[Shins]

So I really don't wanna veer off topic here, but what the heck is the control stick? Is it the c stick? Is it the analog stick? The world may never know.

 

[smashbro29]

You know what's worse than Melee elitists? Brawl elitists who assume that every person who plays Melee competitively is a *** and then goes on to assume that he's greater and more mature than them.

Because that would make certain characters over powered and others much worse. Wavedashing depends on a number of factors including traction, so altering those factors could potentially make a character a lot worse (or better) than he normally is.

Keep the drama on Myspace I say.

Wavedashing is great and all I'm thinking of the next big thing, smash 4 might not be what we want so what are we gonna do? Ride the Melee train forever? It's definitely not a perfect template. Why not make some brand new competitive innovations?

So I really don't wanna veer off topic here, but what the heck is the control stick? Is it the c stick? Is it the analog stick? The world may never know.

Left stick.

 

[DrinkingFood]

@shins, wavedashing isn't in particular easier with luigi, as it requires the same timing as most characters, it's just that his slow traction gives long slides that make the results of near success are easier to see. If doing the actions fast enough is an issue, try with Ganondorf or even Bowser, as the timing for them is slower and lets you relax you hand a little more.

 

[Doctor X]

Hitting L to throw yourself into the ground to propel yourself forward or backward is not good design. Its not intuitive to learn at all.

Why does it need to be "intuitive to learn?" Learning through intuition is the domain of casual play, for games that want to be a relaxing pastime that players can coast through without having to do things like practice and research. In that world, things need to be intuitive-- or otherwise forced upon you through unskippable "now-you-try-it" tutorials-- because most gamers can't be bothered to read text in the game itself, let alone to look up information discovered by other players on a message board.

The competitive scene is an entirely different world. Even if developers intentionally try to make it otherwise-- as with Brawl-- those who try to coast through will never succeed. Now, in your case you've already taken the important step of going to a message board to learn. At this point, intuition isn't needed. We can tell you exactly how to perform a wavedash. We can describe in great detail many of its potential uses, and we can link you to videos of other players utilizing it. If you still won't learn it, it is not because it needs to be more intuitive. All the information is here and readily available; there's nothing left for you to intuit.

I know others have said this, but it bears repeating in this context: In the grand scheme of smash, learning to wavedash is easy. This is not because of other purely technical barriers, but because of barriers that are *not* purely technical, like spacing, recovery, DI, and combos. These are much more difficult to explain or understand because they vary constantly based on the actions of your opponent, whereas wavedashing is always the same sequence of inputs and timing for each character, regardless of who your opponent is or how they are playing. It's is a bit like riding a bike on a flat street. It seems crazy at first, but once you get it down you never have to learn it again. Actually learning to play Melee against competent players, though? That's riding a bike with cliffs on either side, and the ground shifts around beneath you.

Harsh as it may seem, if the flat street is so daunting to you, it's possible you're just not a competitive player and this really isn't your kind of game.

 

[CyberZixx]

Because Innovation is born from necessity not because some people would like to be different. Look, I get not being able to do a technique such as wavedashing is frustrating but many people did not find it all that hard to learn and once we did can agree that it works very well and is a flexible technique because of it's command. Which would be lost by changing it as had been pointed out. In this game there are character who can get by without needing to wavedash. You can pick up Bowser for instance.

 

[Medaka444]

I know others have said this, but it bears repeating in this context: In the grand scheme of smash, learning to wavedash is easy. This is not because of other purely technical barriers, but because of barriers that are *not* purely technical, like spacing, recovery, DI, and combos. These are much more difficult to explain or understand because they vary constantly based on the actions of your opponent, whereas wavedashing is always the same sequence of inputs and timing for each character, regardless of who your opponent is or how they are playing.

You think wavedashing is easier to do? But the things you mentioned don't require such incredibly strict timing to not only WD, but to make it more than a parlor trick. Recovery, combos, etc., can be pulled off on the fly without much practice put into a single technique.

 

[standardtoaster]

i honestly don't see how it's that hard to learn how to do a wavedash. jump -> see you're in air -> air dodge to the ground. repeat until you get fast enough were you can barely see yourself in the air

 

[DrinkingFood]

In this game there are character who can get by without needing to wavedash. You can pick up Bowser for instance.

And even as Bowser you need to be able to waveland onto platforms or the ground.

 

[Yoki]

In case you missed my post at the end of the previous page, the PMBR has already coded something to make wavedashing (and most tech skills) much easier: the "Input Assist" option in the Settings Menu. With it on, you can get frame-perfect wavedashes just by air dodging right after you pressed the jump button, no need to get the timing right. If the problem is your fingers are too slow to press the shoulder button all the way quickly enough, just download the wifi codeset so that light presses trigger air dodges (there, Input Assist is replaced by configurable buffer, so you can make all inputs even easier if necessary).

Anyway, while Input Assist does let you wavedash easily, if you need Input Assist to wavedash, you probably don't really need to wavedash at all. No offense, I can wavedash just fine without buffer, but my opponents and myself aren't nearly good enough that the option to wavedash matter that much. You won't miss out on a large portion of the non-competitive P:M experience.

 

[Doctor X]

You think wavedashing is easier to do? But the things you mentioned don't require such incredibly strict timing to not only WD, but to make it more than a parlor trick.

"Incredibly strict timing" is an overstatement in comparison to many other technical tricks in this game, but that aside... the timing is always the same for each character. You get it down once, and you have it forever. No matter how difficult it might seem to get it that first time, you can sort of forget about practicing it from that point forward.

Recovery, combos, etc., can be pulled off on the fly without much practice put into a single technique.

Against a very good player, certainly not. You miss a sweetspot, you die. You go for a sweetspot at the wrong time, you die. You use your second jump at the wrong time, you die. If DI the wrong way, chances are you die. You mis-space your shield pressure and get grabbed or otherwise punished by out of shield play? Often times you die. You go for a combo but are too slow to get there before hitstun ends? You take a ****ty trade at best, if you don't lose control of the match entirely. Because all of these questions have situational answers, it takes an enormous amount of practice to start answering them correctly. The raw inputs of a wavedash are simple in comparison.

There's a reason why like 90% of the Melee community can wavedash with no issue, but still get bodied by top players.

 

[Strong Badam]

The timing actually changes depending on character (Try wavedashing with Fox, then try to do the same with Bowser), and that's exactly why you can't make it easier. Introducing a "wavedash button" would require you to implement an input that has different meanings on a frame-level depending on what character is being used, which simply isn't possible.

 

[Evilagram]

Honestly, an easy way to make wavedashing more simple is to make the jumpsquat animation cancelable into the airdodge animation. Just saying. Though it would remove some of the startup frames on the wavedash, which would make characters with longer jumpsquats have proportionally better wavedashes.

Being able to wavedash is another option, it's not a particularly critical option, but it is something that provides an advantage and without it you must be better at other things to compensate. If you can't use all your options well, you can't stand on top, even if it's something rather tangential like this.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can't have a ground animation cancelable with an aerial animation. That's like trying to let Marth cancel Fsmash into Fair. It's just not possible.

 

[shadow0x0cloud]

You can't have a ground animation cancelable with an aerial animation. That's like trying to let Marth cancel Fsmash into Fair. It's just not possible.

 

[Medaka444]

@Doctor X: I should have assumed we were talking strictly about high level, player-to-player gameplay. I think the biggest problem is that we've been viewing opinion ("this is easier than that") as absolute fact that can be proven. From personal experience, I find juggling and DI to be much easier to do than simply shorthopping.

 

[Shadic]

*but turbo mode*

Doesn't work like that. You can cancel an Fsmash into a jump into a Fair, but that's a fairly obvious progression of ground -> leaving ground -> aerial attack.

 

[Phaiyte]

- If you have problems with muscle memory, then there's no such thing as a fighting game that is for you in the first place.

- Wavedashing wasn't "discovered on accident". The devs of Melee knew it was there before the game's release and left it there on purpose.

- L Cancelling isn't a mistake either. The entire concept is explained in Smash 64's booklet that comes with the game.

- Wavedashing is honestly pretty damn intuitive if you ask me. The main problem with a lot of people is that they try to relate video games to real life or just don't know how to think; maybe both. stop that. It is plenty intuitive in light of the fact that you are doing nothing more than utilizing the mechanics of the game. You can choose any direction to air dodge, and if you happen to land somewhere during that air dodge, you're propelled to compensate for the amount of air dodge that you didn't use. If someone has issues understanding that then I can't do much more than feel sorry for them.

- Don't ***** and moan when your only real solution really is to get better. You're SPOONFED all kinds of crazy information that so many people had to learn for themselves without those resources. If you've only been playing the game for a month, don't expect to be anywhere near the skill level of those that have been playing for 2-12 years. That's not even being rude or anything, that's common sense. Being great at anything, not just videogames or /any/ other specific skill, literally never happens over night. In fact, if you've only been playing for a month, stop focusing on all advanced techniques altogether until you learn the fundamentals of the game. Those advanced techniques will literally never help you without the basics.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

- L Cancelling isn't a mistake either. The entire concept is explained in Smash 64's booklet that comes with the game.

Is it really? I don't have an instruction book for the game within reach, but I'd love to see the exact page where it mentions it. I remember the devs for Brawl basically saying that L canceling and wavedashing weren't intentional, and being able to throw that in their faces in my head would feel pretty nice.

 

[Kally Wally]

Is it really? I don't have an instruction book for the game within reach, but I'd love to see the exact page where it mentions it. I remember the devs for Brawl basically saying that L canceling and wavedashing weren't intentional, and being able to throw that in their faces in my head would feel pretty nice.

I can't confirm that it was in the booklet, but I can confirm that it was on the original website.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I can't confirm that it was in the booklet, but I can confirm that it was on the original website.

Ha, take that Brawl team.

 

[Player -0]

Doesn't work like that. You can cancel an Fsmash into a jump into a Fair, but that's a fairly obvious progression of ground -> leaving ground -> aerial attack.

Randall obviously
... This post was a joke? Although I do have a point although it's very situational, and you're still leaving the ground into the air... Unless... A new AT somehowz!?

Edit: I think the guy that suggested Wave Dashing being a button wasn't against the idea of using the airdodge to use it but instead wanted an alternative to just airdodging so you could do a Wave Dash in a Brawl environment or such. I think Wave Dashing is one of those things that's just ingenious but such a small thing, and it's not one of those things that will instantly help you out like L-Canceling but it's dependent on how you use it. Therefore, it'll be hard to find something to replace it.

 

[KayB]

- Wavedashing wasn't "discovered on accident". The devs of Melee knew it was there before the game's release and left it there on purpose.

It kind of was. The developers didn't mean to put in. They just made a physics system that had wavedashing as a happy coincidence and then decided to flow with it. Seems pretty accidental to me. Plus, the Melee community sort of found it out by accident as well. The main point is that its not a glitch. Whether or not it was done on accident is generally irrelevant.

 

[Phaiyte]

Is it really? I don't have an instruction book for the game within reach, but I'd love to see the exact page where it mentions it. I remember the devs for Brawl basically saying that L canceling and wavedashing weren't intentional, and being able to throw that in their faces in my head would feel pretty nice.

They called it "soft landing". But instead of L, in N64 the only viable button to use for that was Z, which was also a shield button so it's the same concept.

 

[Player -0]

L-Canceling is called L-Canceling because it stands for Lag-Canceling....?
You could also use grab, or R, to L-Cancel in SSB64 I think.