DWYP 2 Prelims 0.3 SkylerOcon vs Air Gemini Which religion should the US be?

[lonejedi]

Skyler is the affirmative, you will start with the opening post. Good Luck guys, and Debate with Your Power!

 

[SkylerOcon]

First, I would like to say good luck to Airgemini.

I think the Unites States should be considered Christian because of the sheer amount of Christians we have in this country. I've seen numbers ranging from 71-85% that claim to be the percentage of Christians in America.

I'm not saying that it should be made as an 'official' religion of the nation, as that would violate the constitution. But, should the US be immediately affiliated with Christianity? Yes.

A survey by the Boston Globe of 35,000 American Adults showed that about 78% of them were Christians.

These are not to say that these numbers will not change. Heck, they're changing right now. But, as of now? The US is a predominately Christian nation and as such it should be considered as one.

http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demographics/map_demographics.htm
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_christian.htm
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/02/26/us_religious_identity_is_rapidly_changing/l

 

[Airgemini]

Good luck to you too SkylerOcon.

Well I would like to say that I believe the United States should not be identified as a Christian country but rather something neutral or maybe not to be considered a religion at all. As we all know there are many religions that make up the United States and even though Christianity has the highest percentage among the others it may be starting to decrease.

According to the polling data from the 2001 ARIS study, they conclude that:

• 81% of American adults identify themselves with a specific religion: 76.5% (159 million) of Americans identify themselves as Christian. Identification with Christianity has suffered a loss of 9.7 percentage points in 11 years thats about (according to them) 0.9 percentage points per year.
  
  
• In May 2007 studies showed that only 71% of American adults consider themselves Christians

• The percentage may dip below 70% in 2008

• They believe that by about the year 2042, non-Christians will outnumber the Christians in the U.S.

As you can see, the number of Christians are starting to drop, and as a result I dont believe that anyone can say the United States is considered a 'whatever religion' as of now.

Reference:

• http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

 

[SkylerOcon]

But, 2042 is many, many years from now. I'm not disagreeing with you that the US will eventually not be pre-dominantly Christian. But as of now, the majority of the US is Christian.

You can't say that the US shouldn't be associated with Christianity because all of our presidents have been Christian. Most of our citizens are Christian. I'm not saying this won't change, because as your source and my sources state it already is.

But now? The US is Christian. No we should not make Christianity the official religion. But, the US should be considered as a Christian nation.

 

[Airgemini]

Yes its many years from now but who knows what could happen in terms of religion between then.
Yes, as of now Christianity has the most practicioners in the United States but, there are some fast growing religions such as Wicca that may pass it in the future.

Im not saying that the United States should not be considered a Christian nation but as you and I have said, the percentages of people devoted to Christianity may change in time. And I think until there is one religion that everyone is devoted to (very very unlikely), I dont think the Unitied States can be classified as a one religion country.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I agree that it's very, very unlikely that the US will become a one-religion nation. I acknowledge that the current percentages of Christians in the US will change and are changing.

But right now? They're the majority. So, when people think the US they should also realize that it's a Christian nation, which most already do. Yes, this will change in the future. But not 1, 2, or 3 years in the future. As your source suggests about 2042. That's 34 years from now.

It can and it should change then. But as of now, we're a Christian nation, and we need to acknowledge that.

 

[Airgemini]

But is it really even necissary for the United States to be classified as a 'whatever religion' country?
I mean is it really a need? I dont think that the United States should be classified as anything. I mean it wont hurt anything and it wont affect anything if its not classified as a 'whatever religion'. So whats the point?

 

[SkylerOcon]

I mean it wont hurt anything and it wont affect anything if its not classified as a 'whatever religion'.

It won't hurt anything if it won't either.

The US is a Christian country. You can't deny that, as you've seen the same statistics that I have. It pretty much already is considered a Christian nation. The internet says it all the time, newspapers print this, and has been mentioned in many public speeches, sometimes by presidents.

We already are considered as a Christian nation. It hasn't hurt anybody, and it's a truthful statement.

 

[Airgemini]

Maybe for now it is.
But really what purpose does the United States being a Christian country serve?
I just really dont think the United States should be considered a Christian or any other religion country but instead as just a country.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Maybe for now it is.
But really what purpose does the United States being a Christian country serve?
I just really dont think the United States should be considered a Christian or any other religion country but instead as just a country.

I agree that there is no purpose to being classified as a Christian nation. However, is it not better for us be classified with a truthful label than one that's not true?

It doesn't serve any purpose, but the same can be said about you being on smashboards. There's no purpose to it.

And why shouldn't it be? It would be a lie if we claimed to not be dominantly Christian.

 

[Airgemini]

Yes it would be a lie if we claimed not to be dominantly Christian but it would also be a lie if we claimed that the United States is an entirely Christian country which is basically what the United States being a Christian country is implying if we choose that lable.

However it would not be a lie if instead the United States was classified as a multi-religion country or something else neutral.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Yes it would be a lie if we claimed not to be dominantly Christian but it would also be a lie if we claimed that the United States is an entirely Christian country which is basically what the United States being a Christian country is implying if we choose that lable.

However it would not be a lie if instead the United States was classified as a multi-religion country or something else neutral.

But we are a Christian county. I'm not a Christian, and I know a lot of people who aren't. Just because we are considered to be Christian doesn't mean that everybody in the country would be Christian.

It's like when you classify a book. You can put something in a fiction section, but the author may have based the events off of his own life. It's not an entirely fictional novel. But for the most part, it is fiction.

The US is not entirely Christian. But is it mostly Christian? Yes.

 

[Airgemini]

Yes but still, even though the United States is mostly Christian does that mean that we can call this country a Christian one? No.

The United States is composed of many different religions and beliefs. Just because there are more Christians doesnt mean we should say the United States is just a Christian country.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I never said that we should say that the US is just a Christian country. Just because we are classified as something doesn't mean that we are only that thing. I've already explained this, but I'll explain it again.

Classification is used to easily pick out something and put it into a certain group. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's 100% that thing. Most democrats aren't completely democratic and most republicans are completely republican. If we were classified as a Christian nation, the only thing that would effect is statistics, and in a positive way.

 

[Airgemini]

Thats not really what I meant by saying that.

But really, who cares about the percentages of Christians in the United States? As we both know that percentage will decrease in time and then what religion will this country be classified as? My point is is that instead of being named as a Christian country why not be named as a multiple religion country or something among those lines?

 

[SkylerOcon]

Because we're a Christian country. Every country has multiple religions. But, that doesn't mean that they go around saying 'oh, well this religion is 71% of our country, but just because of the other 29% of mixed up religions, we're just going to say that it's mainly made of multiple religions'.

I get what your saying. You think that the US shouldn't be classified as Christian because not everybody is Christian. Yeah, not everybody is Christian. But, seeing as the vast majority is Christian and the closest belief system to Christianity in the US is no religious affiliation coming in at barely 13.2%. The closest religion? Judaism at a puny 1.4%.

Christianity in the US is dominant. The closest set of beliefs as shown by my source (it will be posted at the bottom of this post) is 'no religious affilliation' which would probably combine Atheism, Agnosticism, and other non-thiest groups.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/compuswrld.htm

 

[Airgemini]

But its a lie.
Saying we're a Christian country is like saying the United States is the safest place in the world and nothing bad happens.
Since most Christians live a life of no violence saying that the United States is a Christian country is basically saying that, which we all know isnt true.

Also, I found this article, according to it they say that we're not a Christian country.
I'll take a quote of the website.

One of the hard facts of life is that the United States of America is not a Christian Nation. The following Treaty was made by the United States of America with the Barbary Pirates. It passed the 5th Congress without a hitch. Article 11 was made part of the record to convince the Muslims that the United States of America is not a Christian Nation, and therefore peace could be established between the two nations.

• http://secular.embassyofheaven.com/usa/tripoli.htm#ARTICLE 11

 

[SkylerOcon]

But its a lie.
Saying we're a Christian country is like saying the United States is the safest place in the world and nothing bad happens.

Well, the US is very safe, but not completely safe. Just like we're mostly Christian but not completely Christian. Bad things will always happen, no matter what, so your argument here doesn't even make sense.

Since most Christians live a life of no violence saying that the United States is a Christian country is basically saying that, which we all know isnt true.

I'm not sure exactly what you said, but I'm pretty sure you were saying that if the US was Christian we wouldn't be in a war. We have church and state separated. Mind you, this argument isn't about what religion we should officially, but what religion people should think about when the subject of religion in the US is brought up.

• http://secular.embassyofheaven.com/usa/tripoli.htm#ARTICLE 11

The article claims that it was not founded as a Christian nation. The article is talking about that we're saying that we weren't built off of the Christian mentality, hence the separation of church and state. Your source is talking about the US stating that we're not officially Christian, so don't target us because of Christianity.

You're trying to argue about what religion we should officially be. I agree, we should have no official religion. But, what religion do we consider most US citizens to follow? Christianity.

 

[Airgemini]

Well, the US is very safe, but not completely safe.

The United States is very safe? The World Trade centers getting bombed doesnt really make me feel safe.
Yes I am sorry my other post got a little off topic.

Anyways, you're saying that just because the majority of United States citizens are Christian that we should claim this country to be Christian. Why? Thats in a way saying that if this country's biggest race group was Whites (not sure if this is true or not) that we should call this a White country or something along those lines.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Anyways, you're saying that just because the majority of United States citizens are Christian that we should claim this country to be Christian. Why? Thats in a way saying that if this country's biggest race group was Whites (not sure if this is true or not) that we should call this a White country or something along those lines.

Well, we're also white for the most part. Just because the nation would be considered as Christian or white doesn't mean that everybody in it is Christian or white.

 

[Airgemini]

I'm not saying that.
But to me when you say that because there are mostly Christians in the United States you're basically saying the same thing could be applied to anything else that has the majority in the United States (like race).

Even though there are more Christians does that mean we can classify this country as Christian when we both know that its likely to change in the future? When it changes then what are we going to classify it as? Lets say if the the major monothesitic religions all had tied followers (unlikely), what religion would we call this country? Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

[SkylerOcon]

I understand, but just to make it more convienient for the future we shouldn't lie as of now. 2042 is 34 years from now. That's a long time.

We're mostly Christian now, and we need to acknowledge that. When the time comes for us to say 'we're not mostly Christian' we need to say that too.

 

[Airgemini]

Who says we need to acknowledge that though? It wont make this world any better if we do classify this country as a Christian nation.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Who says we need to acknowledge that though? It wont make this world any better if we do classify this country as a Christian nation.

That's like saying 'will it make the world any better if I supersize my combo meal'. The outcome of this argument won't effect anything except for statistics.

It will people have a better view of what the most common religious beliefs are in the world, in our country, and in certain states.

 

[lonejedi]

Good Debate Guys. Here are your scores.

Airgemini: Good use of sources, you stuck to your guns. I was a little disappointed that your main argument was we won't considered christian in 2042. But you seemed to keep him on the defense for the most part

Skylercon: You also used a good amount of sources. You used a great example of comparing our country to other countries with multiple religions, but have one official religion. Would have liked to see some quotes from famous Americans who used God or Christianity in their quotes.

Another good debate. But I'm giving this one to Skylercon, he seemed to have more arguments for his side, instead of stating "What will it accomplish"

Skylercon: A-
Airgemini B

 

[AltF4]

I didn't really get this debate. Honestly, I didn't like the topic very much. I don't see what was supposed to be debated.

SkylerOcon: Pretty much had one argument, which was repeated several times: Christians are in the majority in America, therefore the US should be "considered Christian". But I never really understood what "considered Christian" meant. It was even said that it's not in any "official" way... so what other way is there? I don't get it.

airgemini: I feel like you dropped the ball on a lot of easy arguments. The founding fathers (particularly Jefferson) were extremely against the church having anything to do with the nation. Instead I read a lot of "well, it doesn't matter if the majority of Americans are christians". Without any real reason or substance behind it. Aside from one source which was clearly found after no more effort than a 2 minute Google search, I didn't see much substance at all.


I was disappointed in both sides:

Skyler: C
airgemini: D-

 

[SkylerOcon]

Thanks for the input. I will follow the advice that both of you gave me.

Good job to Airgemini, as well.

 

[Airgemini]

Thanks for your imputs guys ^_^.
Good job SkylerOcon. Good luck in your future DWYP topics.

Guess I'll have to try again next year lol.