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Dthrow to Uair Kill Percents for All Characters

BballLuke13

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I've made a list of the minimum percents that the Checkmate combo will kill each character. If you're unfamiliar with this combo, it was made possible in the new patch, and is Down-throw to Up-air.
http://pastebin.com/EHHW0xZv
Note: I don't have Ryu, Roy, or Mewtwo yet, so I couldn't test them. I also don't have a second controller at the moment so I can't get the data for Shulk's Monado arts right now, but I might be able to get it later tonight; I'll edit the Pastebin when I have.
 

Gamegenie222

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IDK on Luigi I know Luigi can possibly escape the lower percent combos cause of nair. I can try to test out Luigi and the DLC characters in a few minutes though.
 
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Nah

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I presume this was all tested on the Wii U version? I went and tried a few of these out in Training mode on the 3DS (on Final Destination) and found that I was killing them roughly 20% later than the listed %s. 3DS has the blast zones further away than on the Wii U version so everything kills a little later. You might wanna make note of that.

Luigi happens to die at 100% (106% after the Dthrow) on the 3DS version btw.

We'll have to see how well this works against actual human opponents though.
 

Raziek

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Is this tested so that it registers as a true combo? (2hits on the combo counter)
 

Zareidriel

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Hey @ BballLuke13 BballLuke13 , mind if I take your hard-won data and incorporate it into my Robin guide? The Robins of the world would appreciate it :colorful:

I'll look more into what/and/who are true combos, if you haven't already or don't want to.
 

BballLuke13

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Is this tested so that it registers as a true combo? (2hits on the combo counter)
For some reason, no matter what I try, I can't seem to get it to register as a true combo at any percent on any characters. Not sure what I'm doing wrong (I know I need to full-hop).


Hey @ BballLuke13 BballLuke13 , mind if I take your hard-won data and incorporate it into my Robin guide? The Robins of the world would appreciate it :colorful:

I'll look more into what/and/who are true combos, if you haven't already or don't want to.
Yeah, you can use it. I posted this to help Robin mains, after all. And I don't have much information on true combos, as noted above.
 

WindHero

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The reason getting it to register as a true combo is important is because untrue combos are escapable. What a true combo entails is getting hitstun to chain with itself and allow the opponent no opening for action, like airdodging. Since none of these characters register a true combo in training, it means that they have enough time after the DThrow hitstun to airdodge your UAir. Subtle, but important.

Has anyone ran into occasions where people tech DThrow...? I know a CPU did that to me once, but lol frame-perfect react time.
 

Luis1234554321

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well, i'm trying this combo right now and with bowser at 110% sometimes kill it and sometimes not
 

QuantumKiller

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Sheik can be true combo'd at 96% if anyone cares. I wish there was a hitstun calculator for smash 4.
 

TheHypnotoad

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I was messing around on For Glory, trying out the combo on various characters, and the results were less than favorable. I couldn't land the combo at all on Toon Link or Captain Falcon, and I just barely clipped an Ike in the middle of his midair jump (i.e. if he had airdodged he could have avoided it). Zelda was able to nair at low percents and just DI away or double jump at high percents. I think I did manage to hit a Little Mac at kill percent, but that's it. This combo only works at specific percents if your opponent has bad DI, and if your opponent has good DI it might not work at all. Dthrow just has so little hitstun that it is easy to just double jump or airdodge before you can followup.
 
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Zareidriel

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So "Checkmate" might be more of a "Check" eh? I think the next step is this: Could we get any reports of who was able to do this as a true combo, to what character, and at what percent? And if anyone has friends, stick em in training mode and see if they can DI left or right and if we can follow that using the fullhop? I'd like to think this thing is real and possible; if it only works at a specific percentage range that's fine. Even if we have to guess correctly with the DI direction. But we need to know for sure. Results have just been too iffy.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Even Check might be overstating it. I just cannot consistently land this combo. Ironically, I've found that fastfallers have the easiest time escaping the combo, regardless of percent.

Then again, I suck at this game. Can someone who is more competent try it? And don't do it against an AI, do it against an actual person using multiple different characters at different percents and different DI directions. We need to know which characters this works on, what percents it works, and how easy it is to DI out of.

For that matter, also try out dthrow to jab/fsmash/usmash/dsmash/utilt/etc. at low percents, because I've been having trouble landing those too, especially against fastfallers.
 
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Meta651

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Ok guys because my internet is sucking right now and I can't enjoy Splatoon because of it, so I decided to test some things of the "Checkmate".

I noticed that, unlike :4diddy: HooHa, :4robinf: Checkmate isn't a braindead combo that works anytime and it has its little things to keep in mind. I started to Checkmate Mario in FD and what I discovered that the % that it dies is not necessarily the % that it becomes a true combo, this is what I got after some time in the training mode:

(All tested on :4mario: in the center of FD)

- Dies = 95%
- True combo = 108%

Curiously I couldn't make the combo from a Short Hop in any % but I managed to get it with Full Hops after 108%, if anyone is wondering I was trying to do it buffering the Short Hop and Full Hop Uair.

Some characters I can get to combo relatively easy with Short Hops like :4falcon:, :4feroy: or :4zss: to name some but against :4mario: and :4ness: I had some troubles. Maybe I'm not buffering right the inputs but I don't know, if someone can test this and confirm this would be awesome because maybe I'm being slow with my hands but I don't know if that is the reason, but this are my 2 cents to the discussion. Maybe if I have the time and enough willpower I can do a chart with more characters but that depends on how much free time I can get this week.
 
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Raziek

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I did some quick and dirty testing of true combo %'s on a few critical characters (because I wanted to beat my local rival) before my monthly the other night:

These numbers are all with no rage (training mode). Rage may cause them to fluctuate a little bit in an actual match, it takes a little bit to get the feel for when it will and won't work in a real match:

:4duckhunt:
U-tilt: 36-50
U-Smash: 75-87
Uair: 95-131

:4lucario:
U-tilt: 43-69
U-Smash: 84-97
Uair: 99-147

:4luigi:
U-tilt: 44-61
U-Smash: N/A
Uair: Couldn't get to true combo. Will test further later.
 

Meta651

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I thought that Dthrow -> U-Smash can be escaped with DI, at least that worked when I tested it with my friends that mains Sheik.
 

Meneil

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I've been using this list as a general basis to guestimate what combos I should be doing. Rage definitely plays a *huge* factor into what combos and what doesn't. The character / weight / % / our rage GREATLY effects these combos, and the window to when it's a 'true' combo is very small. We're not like Luigi, but that's okay.

If I'm at 50-75% I adjust accordingly and mentally add about 10% for everything that's a base factor on the list. Past 100% Robin's Dthrow-> Uair isn't going to guarantee work - however, Dthrow is still a great move. It's fast and even skilled opponents might miss the window to 100% perfectly DI it (I think of it like Sheik's Fthrow). We can start baiting out panic airdodges and react accordingly - or just smack em - again, borrowing the principle from Sheik. Situationally I prefer Bthrow, mainly when I'm at the awkward rage % and by a ledge or something.

I've been using mainly dhtrow -> jabs and dthrow -> utilt at low and mid-low %s, then looking for aerial follow-ups at mid, and searching for the correct kill percent based on the list.

I can't get Usmash to work at all. Is that a real thing? Or is it a DI dependent thing?

Went to tournaments both tonight and Sunday night, the difference is real. We can completely knock out that comeback factor - closed two sets when my opponents were around 80%, I spawned fresh, and go the checkmate. It sure looks like a real combo. I honestly don't even trust training mode at this point since rage is noticeably affecting my combos.
 

TheHypnotoad

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I did some quick and dirty testing of true combo %'s on a few critical characters (because I wanted to beat my local rival) before my monthly the other night:

These numbers are all with no rage (training mode). Rage may cause them to fluctuate a little bit in an actual match, it takes a little bit to get the feel for when it will and won't work in a real match:

:4duckhunt:
U-tilt: 36-50
U-Smash: 75-87
Uair: 95-131

:4lucario:
U-tilt: 43-69
U-Smash: 84-97
Uair: 99-147

:4luigi:
U-tilt: 44-61
U-Smash: N/A
Uair: Couldn't get to true combo. Will test further later.
I assume this is with no DI? I'm willing to bet that Lucario and Luigi could easily escape the combo with proper DI due to their floatiness.
 

Pazzo.

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Thank you for your work on this.

Very useful to me.
 

Pegasus Knight

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I've honestly stopped considering d-throw to be a 'combo throw' and instead a 'mixup throw' where my opponent has to guess what the right response is; jump away to escape immediate combo moves (but risk getting hit by me jumping after them with a Levin Sword aerial) or stay there and risk being hit by combos or see if I jump too far and LSFair empty air they didn't actually jump to? I admit to being disappointed by this since other characters get tons of combos off their dthrow, but I'll concede this is still better than what we had before.
 

TheHypnotoad

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Nairo has said that the best followup at low percents is jab, at least for middleweight characters. Fastfallers can shield before you can jab, and floaties can SDI up and jump out. It also depends on how fast your opponent's nair is, since the hitstun on the throw is so puny that they will most likely have time to throw out a nair before hitting the ground. So it will probably work on R.O.B., but it might not work on Mario.

Of course, this is all just conjecture, I haven't tested any of it yet. But it's something to keep in mind, or something to possibly test later.
 
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Nah

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I'm planning to do some testing on Saturday for Dthrow combo percentages and stuff and will include variables like DI, shielding, combo breaker moves, airdodges, etc, on the entire cast (well, not the DLC characters, but that's still like 95% of the roster) and post my results here.

Unless someone else is already doing that or will get a good chunk of data to post by Saturday.

Someone else will have to do Checkmate and aerials though. I won't really be able to test aerials.
 
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Meneil

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Confirming here that fast-fallers can DI out of Dthrow to the ground, and shield it at 0%. Tested this with Sheik. Pretty sure ours works exactly like Mario's Dthrow->utilt in this case, whatever characters can shield that are probably a good reference to who Robin can jab at 0%. Even with a few %s Sheik can get Dthrow->grabbed though.

I plan to check out certain characters Checkmate combos, including rage and other factors. I honestly don't have the stamina to go through and do it with all characters, so I'll be checking it vs characters that are dominant in my region. I'll post whatever I find though.
 
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TheHypnotoad

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All right, I'm through with this. This "combo" is crap. Garbage. Puke. ****. Vomit. Junk. Trash. ***. Why does Robin's dthrow have so little hitstun compared to other combo throws like Captain Falcon's or ZSS's? The percent window for which it actually works is puny, and that's only if your opponent doesn't DI; if they do DI, it might not work at all. Not to mention that Robin potentially has the worst grab in the game, so fishing for grabs as Robin is as dangerous as fishing for grabs as Pac Man or Samus. This buff was meaningless and changed nothing. Maybe you can land an usmash at really low percents on someone who doesn't know how to DI, but that's pretty much it. I'm sticking to bthrow.

Sorry for the aggressiveness, but I'm kind of pissed off that this thing which everyone was saying finally made Robin viable turned out to be practically useless. The Arcthunder buff was fantastic for Robin, but this? This is just lame.
 
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irokex13

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All right, I'm through with this. This "combo" is crap. Garbage. Puke. ****. Vomit. Junk. Trash. ***. Why does Robin's dthrow have so little hitstun compared to other combo throws like Captain Falcon's or ZSS's? The percent window for which it actually works is puny, and that's only if your opponent doesn't DI; if they do DI, it might not work at all. Not to mention that Robin potentially has the worst grab in the game, so fishing for grabs as Robin is as dangerous as fishing for grabs as Pac Man or Samus. This buff was meaningless and changed nothing. Maybe you can land an usmash at really low percents on someone who doesn't know how to DI, but that's pretty much it. I'm sticking to bthrow.

Sorry for the aggressiveness, but I'm kind of pissed off that this thing which everyone was saying finally made Robin viable turned out to be practically useless. The Arcthunder buff was fantastic for Robin, but this? This is just lame.
...Down throw to up smash is a true combo on fast fallers at kill percents. Down throw to up air is also a true combo, but kills slightly later. On other floater characters, down throw to up air kills early, but doesn't combo until later percents. For example, Ness dies around 97% on the 3ds version to D Throw up air, but you can up air before her air dodges at around 115%. Also, if they air dodge your up air, you can frame trap them with Bair or just fast fall and regrab them.

After these buffs, Robin is a very solid character. If you still can't get them to work, that's on you.
 

TheHypnotoad

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...Down throw to up smash is a true combo on fast fallers at kill percents. Down throw to up air is also a true combo, but kills slightly later.
Not a chance, the hitstun wears off so quickly that they can double jump out of it as long as they DI properly.

On other floater characters, down throw to up air kills early, but doesn't combo until later percents. For example, Ness dies around 97% on the 3ds version to D Throw up air, but you can up air before her air dodges at around 115%. Also, if they air dodge your up air, you can frame trap them with Bair or just fast fall and regrab them.[/quote]

Once again, they can just double jump away. Robin isn't exactly a fast character, so if they DI up and away, you won't be able to reach them in time.

These true combos rely on your opponent being braindead and not knowing how to DI. Plus, the percent windows in which they work are very small. And we can't forget that rage will increase the knockback, making it even harder to reach them.
 
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PK Gaming

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All right, I'm through with this. This "combo" is crap. Garbage. Puke. ****. Vomit. Junk. Trash. ***. Why does Robin's dthrow have so little hitstun compared to other combo throws like Captain Falcon's or ZSS's? The percent window for which it actually works is puny, and that's only if your opponent doesn't DI; if they do DI, it might not work at all. Not to mention that Robin potentially has the worst grab in the game, so fishing for grabs as Robin is as dangerous as fishing for grabs as Pac Man or Samus. This buff was meaningless and changed nothing. Maybe you can land an usmash at really low percents on someone who doesn't know how to DI, but that's pretty much it. I'm sticking to bthrow.

Sorry for the aggressiveness, but I'm kind of pissed off that this thing which everyone was saying finally made Robin viable turned out to be practically useless. The Arcthunder buff was fantastic for Robin, but this? This is just lame.
I know you're upset, but you really need to look on the bright side here. We're objectively better off after landing a throw now, which is a big deal imo. Sure we don't have consistently strong kill set ups, but the potential is there. The potential for a kill or more damage is there, and that too me sounds good. Not great, but it's a lot better than nothing.
 

Trifroze

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I'd also like to point out that the combo counter still counts something as a combo even if your opponent can airdodge out of it. The counter only stops counting follow-ups once they are able to attack or jump out of it, which is usually 5-10 frames later at a high percentage like 100 (depends on the move as well, but with dthrows the aforementioned is usually the case).
 

Raziek

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All right, I'm through with this. This "combo" is crap. Garbage. Puke. ****. Vomit. Junk. Trash. ***. Why does Robin's dthrow have so little hitstun compared to other combo throws like Captain Falcon's or ZSS's? The percent window for which it actually works is puny, and that's only if your opponent doesn't DI; if they do DI, it might not work at all. Not to mention that Robin potentially has the worst grab in the game, so fishing for grabs as Robin is as dangerous as fishing for grabs as Pac Man or Samus. This buff was meaningless and changed nothing. Maybe you can land an usmash at really low percents on someone who doesn't know how to DI, but that's pretty much it. I'm sticking to bthrow.

Sorry for the aggressiveness, but I'm kind of pissed off that this thing which everyone was saying finally made Robin viable turned out to be practically useless. The Arcthunder buff was fantastic for Robin, but this? This is just lame.

If you can't ever get the true combo your inputs are bad or you're attempting it at poor percentages. I got 7 checkmates in the first tournament I entered post-patch ALONE, and have gotten it CONSISTENTLY in friendlies and practice games.

Watched Nairo do it to False's Marth 2 or 3 times in Grand Finals just 2 nights ago.

Is it 100% guaranteed under all circumstances? No. Almost nothing is. But it's plenty practical.

Saying this 'buff is meaningless and changed nothing' is just ****ing wrong. Git gud.
 

Nah

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Yo I got numbers people!

For Jab and Utilt anyway. I cannot seem to hit people at all with Usmash after Dthrow for some reason (but I can do it off of Arcthunder). And I'm pretty sure that Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash, and Dsmash will never true combo off of Dthrow but make for decent mixup and/or frame trap options. And like I said in my previous post, someone else's gotta do Checkmate. I will do the entire cast minus DLC and Mii Fighters, but for now I just did some of the more metagame-relevant characters because I'm pretty sure that no one's anxiously awaiting Dthrow combo data on like Bowser or Jigglypuff lol.

Data was collected in Training mode, so no rage and I'm assuming that the combo counter does if fact indicate a bona fide true combo, but I did attempt to simulate some things that a live human opponent might try to do so we (hopefully) have somewhat more practical data:

Update: Data for :4metaknight: added.

Partial Robin Dthrow Combo Data:
Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 33%-59%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 34%-59%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 33%-59%
-Shield: Unable to shield at any %
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 10%-32%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-32%

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 43%-63%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 43%-60%
-True Combos at (DI up): 43%-62%
-Shield: needs to be tested
-Airdodge: Cannot AD at any % Utilt would hit him
-Jump: needs to be tested


Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 43%-55%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): needs to be tested, but likely no significant difference
-True Combos at ( DI up): needs to be tested, but likely no significant difference
-Shield: needs to be tested
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 0%-35%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-42%

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 44%-62%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): needs to be tested, but likely no significant difference
-True Combos at (DI up): needs to be tested, but likely no significant difference
-Shield: needs to be tested
-Airdodge: Can avoid Utilt via AD from 0%-32%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-24%

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 28%-58%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 28%-58%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 28%-58%
-Shield: Can shield against Jab 1 after Dthrow from 0%-20%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to jump out of combo at relevant %s

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 35%-61%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): needs to be tested, but likely no significant difference
-True Combos at (DI up): needs to be tested, but likely no significant difference
-Shield: Can shield against Utilt after Dthrow from 0%-25%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to jump out of combo at relevant %s

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 21%-62%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 21%-56%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 21%-62%
-Shield: Can shield against Jab 1 after Dthrow from 0%-5%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to double out of combo at relevant %s

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 31%-60%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 31%-56%
-True Combos at (DI up): 31%-60%
-Shield: Can shield against Utilt after Dthrow from 0%-11%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to double jump out of combo at relevant %s

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 42%-49%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 42%-49%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 42%-49%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 12%-26%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-17%

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 37%-48%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 37%-48%
-True Combos at (DI up): 37%-48%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Utilt whiffs at %s he could AD
-Jump: Utilt whiffs at %s he could jump out

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 20%-52%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 20%-52%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 20%-52%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 0%-19%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-19%

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 29%-51%%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 29%-51%
-True Combos at (DI up): 29%-51
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Utilt via AD from 0%-27%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-6%

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 38%-60%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 38%-60%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 38%-60%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 23%-27%%
-Jump: Unable to double jump out of combo

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 38%-53%%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 38%-53%
-True Combos at (DI up): 38%-53%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Utilt via AD from 0%-28%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-15%

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 20%-56%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 20%-56%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 20%-56%
-Shield: Can shield against Jab 1 after Dthrow from 0%-15%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to double jump out of combo at relevant %s

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 37%-56%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 37%-56%
-True Combos at (DI up): 37%-56%
-Shield: Can shield against Utilt after Dthrow from 0%-31%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to double jump out at relevant %s

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 34%-72%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 34%-71%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 34%-71%
-Shield: Can shield against Jab 1 from 0%-6%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to double jump out at relevant %s

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 45%-83%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 45%-64%
-True Combos at (DI up): 45%-82%
-Shield: Can shield against Utilt after Dthrow from 0%-19%
-Airdodge: Unable to avoid via AD at relevant %s
-Jump: Unable to double jump out at relevant %s

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 43%-57%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 43%-57%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 43%-57%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 9%-42%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 9%-42%

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 43%-71%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 43%-62%
-True Combos at (DI up): 43%-71%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Utilt via AD from 0%-36%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-36%

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 39%-63%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 39%-63%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 39%-63%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 22%-33%
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-22%

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 45%-70%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 45%-59%
-True Combos at (DI up): 45%-69%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: ???
-Jump: Can double jump out of combo from 0%-22%

Jab
-True Combos at (no DI): 20%-56%
-True Combos at: (DI away from Robin): 20%-56%
-True Combos at ( DI up): 20%-56%
-Shield: Unable to shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid Jab 1 via AD from 5%-19%
-Jump: Unable to double jump out of combo at relevant %s

Utilt
-True Combos at (no DI): 29%-56%
-True Combos at (DI away from Robin): 29%-56%
-True Combos at (DI up): 29%-56%
-Shield: Utilt whiffs at %s he could shield
-Airdodge: Can avoid combo via AD from 0%-27%
-Jump: Unable to jump out of combo at relevant %s


And that's it so far. Someone else should probably try this out in Training mode to see if they can replicate my results and therefore verify the accuracy of the data I've collected, as well as trying to combo at these percents in online battles to see if they truly work against real human opponents. I'll test more later.....just not today.

Oh yeah and I would've done Rosalina, Ness, and Villager, but I couldn't get Jab to true combo on any of them and idk wtf was up with that










 
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