Down dodge vs. Ganondorf

[Moshe]

I am a old Ganondorf player back in melee were I was kinking *** and taking names so as soon as SSBB the first guy I played of course was Ganondorf

The things I notice that was different, was the speed. No L cancel as well the slowed down forward “A” the kick and natural “A” but I have been happy with what they buffed which is the side “B” and the up “B” (survival).

This has been a trip for me trying to re adjust my self to the new Ganondorf but here’s the issue I have been running in to that gets me beat and puts me at a brick wall

If a person has a descent understanding of the down dodge, then he has a powerful weapon to use on Ganondorf due to the fact that the can spam down dodge and for the most part lunch a counter move.

I first saw this issue when playing my brother who plays Falco he can just about down dodge all of my moves I cant even use one of my air move with out getting counter hit and he down dodges my side b every time and natural “A” the only why I get a hit off is with a fake but he catches on quick and still beats me

I first thought that “hay since he my bro and we play together he should know my moves by now” and I assumed that no one else could pull it off like him

Then it happened… I entered a tournament at my work which is EA Games in Los Angeles under the mobile division 16 player entered at $5 dollars each winner gets 75% 2nd place 25% I worked my way up and made it to the final match I thought “ya its my bro he knows me to well” it was me Ganondorf vs. Luigi

The ability that Luigi played is that I couldn’t get a hit off with out getting hit but that’s if I hit, he down dodge almost as good as my bro, and all he did was watch my matches

All the rounds were still close he only won by 1 life but he had the match won. the ending score was he had was he won 3 matches to my 1, all long and hard fought matches.

But in the end I lost and I was 2nd place in the tourney. as for me I did not that feel that I got my *** kicked but that’s when he told me that he didn’t even own a wii ……. I just got *****.

Any suggestions/videos that can help please post here

 

[Zarez]

Sometimes I also feel like I have this problem, and I have a similar situation (I have mostly been playing against my brother, who usually uses Ike, Pit, Lucario, and Falco). I say you should find moves that are more difficult to dodge, don't be predictable, and time your moves correctly and not when they're probably going to miss. Maybe mind games would help.

 

[Devil7]

THis is actually qit easy to get around its called shield grabbing. If you know they will spot dodge move do nothing wait till the spot dodge is over then attack with A and follow up. Or wait till they attack and shield grab. One of my friends does this which makes him more predictable than me.

 

[joenm8r]

I think spot dodging a wizards foot isn't too easy for an opponent.

I have done them on the ground where the spot dodging foe gets hit as I'm passing. Start it close and you'll be far away if they do successfully dodge.

From the air I think you do better, they dodge the aerial part and the impact with the ground either hits them or pushes their shielded character back a bit.

I'm not 100% on these things but I find your post very interesting, because spot dodging is kind of a mystery to me. I almost never use it myself, frankly I don't think I have the reflexes for it.

Maybe there could be a spot dodging mini-guide somewhere. Just about the mechanics of it and how to use it and deal with an opponent using it.

 

[Sliq]

Forward smash. GG. IF they spam spot dodge, you should easily be able to just do an f smash and hit them. You shouldn't just do it as they will inadvertantly dodge it, but if you know they are going to dodge, do an f smash as they start the dodge, they will get hit out of the invulnerability.

Works well against nub Metaknights that spam spot dodge and down smash.

 

[Moshe]

THis is actually qit easy to get around its called shield grabbing. If you know they will spot dodge move do nothing wait till the spot dodge is over then attack with A and follow up. Or wait till they attack and shield grab. One of my friends does this which makes him more predictable than me.

One of the things I was famous for back in melee was the grab out of shield that happen to be one of my favorite moves and it do work for the most part until the both came up with a counter which is to use a spacing “A” button move which puts them out of the rang for the grab and I get hit for it and for Luigi it was even easer all he had to do after down dodge was a shot hop natural “A” hit me if I even attempted the grab

 

[Moshe]

Forward smash. GG. IF they spam spot dodge, you should easily be able to just do an f smash and hit them. You shouldn't just do it as they will inadvertantly dodge it, but if you know they are going to dodge, do an f smash as they start the dodge, they will get hit out of the invulnerability.
Works well against nub Metaknights that spam spot dodge and down smash"

that works may be onece during a match most people catch on

 

[Jekyll]

that works may be onece during a match most people catch on

Not people that habitually spam it.

And if they DO catch on, then haven't you accomplished what you wanted by getting them to stop spot-dodging????


MINDBLOWING!!!!

 

[sk3tch]

The problem here is that Gannon is slow therefore u must be more cautious as to what moves are done during each match. Hell....i should know i was there when the **** occurred

 

[Moshe]

Not people that habitually spam it.

And if they DO catch on, then haven't you accomplished what you wanted by getting them to stop spot-dodging????


MINDBLOWING!!!!

Well it was not a spam it was more like a calculated were the move were slow enough for him to see them coming if it was a flat out spam then that would be able to deal with but it was more like he was able to see what was coming

 

[Sliq]

Well it was not a spam it was more like a calculated were the move were slow enough for him to see them coming if it was a flat out spam then that would be able to deal with but it was more like he was able to see what was coming

100 Bucks says he was just spamming it. That's what bad people do, spam things they think work.

 

[Tenki]

If you're smashing, try screwing with the timing and holding it down like.. one extra second.

chances are he might be dodging (or at least timing his dodge) assuming an uncharged smash. It gets me all the time when this one guy does it to me ._.;

 

[Moshe]

100 Bucks says he was just spamming it. That's what bad people do, spam things they think work.

well if you saw the match i dont think it was like that but on the other hand how do you explane my brother he does not spam it at all and he has used it on other opponts besides me so if you want to see ssbb idoes have on line i now it crap but it is something

 

[sk3tch]

ahhh......yeah, well anyways the match was a total ****. Luigi down dodged every time Gannon performed a forward B move, no spam but more as a counter move on every turn. As i said before Gannon just needed to be more cautious and aware of his opponent.

 

[Moshe]

ahhh......yeah, well anyways the match was a total ****. Luigi down dodged every time Gannon performed a forward B move, no spam but more as a counter move on every turn. As i said before Gannon just needed to be more cautious and aware of his opponent.

he used the down dodge not olny on my side "B' but meny of my other move but you would be right in saying that it did get me in a lot of trouble

 

[Sliq]

well if you saw the match i dont think it was like that but on the other hand how do you explane my brother he does not spam it at all and he has used it on other opponts besides me so if you want to see ssbb idoes have on line i now it crap but it is something

I used the part where you said you placed second in the tournament, your post coutn and join date, and the manner in which you post to deduce that you are bad, your brother is bad, and the person that beatyou was bad. It wasn't hard at all.

There is no strategic spot dodging. Good people rarely use it, instead opting to space and shiel (to, you know, punish out of shield). Bad people spam it. End of story.

 

[sk3tch]

Yeah well....i wouldn't dwell on the past...............unless u happen to have a Delorean with a good flux capaciter.

 

[Calixto]

One of the techniques I've noticed is quite a efficient against spot dodge spam is the Thundahstohm.


The way I see it (the way one of the Metaknight players in my group does it) is that they will dodge over toward where you are, so they are right next to you, then maybe spot dodge after that into a down smash, or just dodge to you and then dodge smash. If you can see it coming, then it's ridiculously easy to punish it with the all powerful Thundahstohm.


Approaching a spot dodge spammer is easy enough, a Wizards Foot usually does fine, a Flame Choke works as well as it will grab them as soon as they pop out of invincibility.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

Calixto is my man for mentioning the Thunder-storm technique. But don't abuse it too much or else you're just screaming "Predictable". You have just got to be Unpredictable.

 

[Sliq]

One of the techniques I've noticed is quite a efficient against spot dodge spam is the Thundahstohm.


The way I see it (the way one of the Metaknight players in my group does it) is that they will dodge over toward where you are, so they are right next to you, then maybe spot dodge after that into a down smash, or just dodge to you and then dodge smash. If you can see it coming, then it's ridiculously easy to punish it with the all powerful Thundahstohm.


Approaching a spot dodge spammer is easy enough, a Wizards Foot usually does fine, a Flame Choke works as well as it will grab them as soon as they pop out of invincibility.

The problem is if they auto-powershield the dair, you get hit. Or in Rob's case, he can down smash you before you can dair again.

Furthermore, Pogo Stomping is a much funnier name.

 

[Bizzarro Flame]

The problem is if they auto-powershield the dair, you get hit. Or in Rob's case, he can down smash you before you can dair again.

Furthermore, Pogo Stomping is a much funnier name.

Ahh, maybe what you're seeing is a Ganon that does not DI his d-air too well. Usually, if DIed to the fullest, ganon ends up behind his opponent after his d-air if his opponent power-shields his attack. But in Rob's case, just as you said, it would be disadvantageous for Ganon to use his d-air too much even though he ends up behind Rob. (You know why)

 

[Moshe]

One of the techniques I've noticed is quite a efficient against spot dodge spam is the Thundahstohm.


The way I see it (the way one of the Metaknight players in my group does it) is that they will dodge over toward where you are, so they are right next to you, then maybe spot dodge after that into a down smash, or just dodge to you and then dodge smash. If you can see it coming, then it's ridiculously easy to punish it with the all powerful Thundahstohm.


Approaching a spot dodge spammer is easy enough, a Wizards Foot usually does fine, a Flame Choke works as well as it will grab them as soon as they pop out of invincibility.

i agree with the Thundahstohm but you cant use to often or you will be in trouble

and about Wizards Foot , and Flame Choke if a play is good they would see both the moves comming

 

[Calixto]

and about Wizards Foot , and Flame Choke if a play is good they would see both the moves comming

True enough, but the issue at hand is a spot dodge spammer. A good player will probably avoid habitual spot dodge spam in one place for obvious reasons.


P.S. Bizzarro speaks the truth of the Thundahstohm DI (save for Rob). Thankfully (or unfortunately?) I have not faced very many Rob users.

 

[Moshe]

True enough, but the issue at hand is a spot dodge spammer. A good player will probably avoid habitual spot dodge spam in one place for obvious reasons.


P.S. Bizzarro speaks the truth of the Thundahstohm DI (save for Rob). Thankfully (or unfortunately?) I have not faced very many Rob users.

well you bring a good point but wouldn't you agree that a "good player" would combine spot dodge with power shielding? by doing this the spot dodge become that much more deadly?

I noticed that other characters stop spot dodge by using there multi hit moves the king of this would be Pit/meta night but Ganondorf does not have one of those types of moves so i figurer it may be an issues once players find this out

PS. is it true the Ganondorf sucks in final destination?

 

[Sliq]

Ahh, maybe what you're seeing is a Ganon that does not DI his d-air too well. Usually, if DIed to the fullest, ganon ends up behind his opponent after his d-air if his opponent power-shields his attack. But in Rob's case, just as you said, it would be disadvantageous for Ganon to use his d-air too much even though he ends up behind Rob. (You know why)

Even if you land behind them, they should stil be able to drop their shield, turn around, and attack before you can do anything. Ganon's dair comes out at the peak of his jump, and the time it takes him to reah the ground is all the time they need to drop their shield and start an attack.

 

[Ree301]

try the running shorthop dair. it is lagless for one so you can land throwing a surprise attack, a forward tilt maybe. and the dair itself hits for a few frames too, it may counter the spot dodge by itself.

 

[PK-ow!]

But in the end I lost and I was 2nd place in the tourney. as for me I did not that feel that I got my *** kicked but that’s when he told me that he didn’t even own a wii ……. I just got *****.

Any suggestions/videos that can help please post here

Don't take that too hard. People can get good without owning the game. These are the people that learn things quickly. I guess the rest of the world is lucky that most such people covary with the kind of families that can't spare the dough for high-end gaming.

The people who end up world- recognition pro in games are always people who (a) are really intelligent, really self-applying, and ... who can play whenever they want.

Anyway, spot dodge spam < stillness mindgames, duh. Do nothing. Wait for spot dodge. Attack.

Spot dodge spam either means they're not paying attention, or they're overly scared. In either case, use it. You have to get into the mindset... you are the powerhouse, if you wait, your chance to punish will show itself. Becoming frantic is your doom.

If they're not "spamming", but simply being frequently successful at spot dodging your ****, then two things are true:

1) Your attacks are coming out when they can spot dodge (obviously, because they did)

2) The stillness mindgame still applies. If you can't explain how they are getting control frames back, it doesn't matter - any moment, they can choose between dodge/shielding, or "moving/attacking/stillness". Stillness counters the first; an attack counters the second. Mixing up between the two means he has no perfect strategy. Like rock paper scissors.

(1) implies that (2).

 

[Moshe]

thank you all for you replays i have been able to deal with the spot dodging by thunder storming and holding down the flame elbow a little to get in some nice hits and in the process i was able to pick up the strategy of spot dodging my self and i am able to use it on my opponent to the point were he told to stop dodging all my move and he started to camp me (he was wolf)
unfortunately if a person has mastered the spot dodge it seem that it gets me in trouble every time i go for a flame choke so i have build a strategy were i can mange with out the flame choke

the issue i still have is dealing with my 12 year old brother who is very good at ssbb he plays falco and i run in to the issue that he gets an automatic 56% damage on me using the chain grab so i try to keep my range with him so he wouldn't get the grab off but its like denying the inevitable he has the range superiority and the speed to pull it off it there a good way to deal with falco in any given course?

 

[dinhotheone]

falco is a pain in the ***, i dont think you can really counter being chaingrabbed. however falco has weak recovery, and if he tries to over b onto the stage then you can sparta kick the move. his up+b is easy to predict and spike. his projectile spam is formidable however with shdl. theres no easy way around that.

 

[Moshe]

falco is a pain in the ***, i dont think you can really counter being chaingrabbed. however falco has weak recovery, and if he tries to over b onto the stage then you can sparta kick the move. his up+b is easy to predict and spike. his projectile spam is formidable however with shdl. theres no easy way around that.

so from what you are saying that: Ganondorf vs falco same skill level = win for falco? (On fd)

 

[Grunt]

My brother won the local gamestop tourney having never played a wii before. XD

 

[Moshe]

My brother won the local gamestop tourney having never played a wii before. XD

with the wii controls right? i hated the game stop for doing that

 

[Aggression]

The problem here is that Gannon is slow therefore u must be more cautious as to what moves are done during each match. Hell....i should know i was there when the **** occurred

GANNON-BANNED FOOL

 

[Moshe]

GANNON-BANNED FOOL

how does that apply to the above Post?

 

[Devil7]

how does that apply to the above Post?

Its spelled ganon not gannon. You should at least know how to spell his name seeing as how its at the top of the screen.

 

[Sliq]

Its spelled ganon not gannon. You should at least know how to spell his name seeing as how its at the top of the screen.

FUCKING OWNED.
caps

 

[Moshe]

Its spelled ganon not gannon. You should at least know how to spell his name seeing as how its at the top of the screen.

What do i have to do with that ownage