Don't use Ness (or Lucas) in tournaments

[thesage]

He won because his opponent used Marth or did he lose because he didn't know how to face Marth and his insane grab?

So what did you want him to do? Not get grabbed? ?_?;

 

[Ztarfish]

Maybe I was unclear (I wasn't).

Wolf can't do

any sort of chain grab

to Ness or Lucas.

All he can really do with the 'death grab' is a down smash, or perhaps a forward smash.

Obviously I haven't done my research. I wasn't aware that Wolf was one of the safe characters. I'll give you that. But then why did you bring him up. I read and reread and all you've said was that Wolf can downsmash fast and can't chaingrab Ness. I don't get it.

So yes, you were unclear.

And please control your temper, disagreements like this get awfully unpleasant.

 

[KiteDXX]

Even if it were enforced, how many people would actually abide by this when they host their tournaments? In the end, it's up to the tournament hosts to decide (see: wobbling ban preferences), and more likely than not, they will not stand for such an impractical ban just so two characters can have a shot at winning.

Something else that could be looked at is ZSS being able to inflict about 100% on a Fox from a Dsmash chain due to a programming flaw in Fox's recovery from the stun. That isn't getting banned either.

Back to the accident scenario, if it happens, the person is disqualified? Why should the player be so harshly penalized because they failed to play the game by a soft-applied rule? Accidents certainly do happen, and because of the buffer system, it's very possible that it can and will happen. When it does, it creates a mess in the system that would altogether be gone if the character just had to suffer from the glaring flaw, or used a different character. Remember, it's a flaw in the game, not a flaw in the player or anything of the sort.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Obviously I haven't done my research. I wasn't aware that Wolf was one of the safe characters. I'll give you that. But then why did you bring him up. I read and reread and all you've said was that Wolf can downsmash fast and can't chaingrab Ness. I don't get it.

So yes, you were unclear.

And please control your temper, disagreements like this get awfully unpleasant.

I think he meant that it doesn't matter about Wolf grabbing Ness to a down smash because down smash is just as fast as a grab and has more reach in the first place.

I was saying that down smash is usually blockable, but if Wolf is facing Ness/Lucas, than even if he CAN'T chain grab, he can still use unblockable down smashes.

 

[KiteDXX]

He lost because Marth grabbed him and infinited him to death.

Even though he was well aware of the chain grab. It's not something you can avoid for the whole match without sacrificing your playstyle.

I'll be blunt here:

You can't always win doing what you want to do. There is a significant difference between what you need to do and what you want to do to win, especially if you're trying to win in a situation where money is on the line.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Even if it were enforced, how many people would actually abide by this when they host their tournaments? In the end, it's up to the tournament hosts to decide (see: wobbling ban preferences), and more likely than not, they will not stand for such an impractical ban just so two characters can have a shot at winning.

Something else that could be looked at is ZSS being able to inflict about 100% on a Fox from a Dsmash chain due to a programming flaw in Fox's recovery from the stun. That isn't getting banned either.

Back to the accident scenario, if it happens, the person is disqualified? Why should the player be so harshly penalized because they failed to play the game by a soft-applied rule? Accidents certainly do happen, and because of the buffer system, it's very possible that it can and will happen. When it does, it creates a mess in the system that would altogether be gone if the character just had to suffer from the glaring flaw, or used a different character. Remember, it's a flaw in the game, not a flaw in the player or anything of the sort.

Oh come on now, the buffering system is not that bad at all.

And Zero Suit Samus's chain Dsmash is different. It's not an infinite and a down smash is harder to hit with than a grab. This is also ONLY effecting Fox and Zss. It can't be done on Fox by half the cast.

 

[munkus beaver]

Obviously I haven't done my research. I wasn't aware that Wolf was one of the safe characters. I'll give you that. But then why did you bring him up. I read and reread and all you've said was that Wolf can downsmash fast and can't chaingrab Ness. I don't get it.

So yes, you were unclear.

And please control your temper, disagreements like this get awfully unpleasant.

Go back and reread the last few pages of the thread and try to understand if you don't want posts tempered with sarcasm

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I'll be blunt here:

You can't always win doing what you want to do. There is a significant difference between what you need to do and what you want to do to win, especially if you're trying to win in a situation where money is on the line.

I'll be blunt back:

If it weren't for this chain grab which was obviously not intended to be in the game, he would have been able to do what he needed to win in a perfectly competitive setting.

 

[munkus beaver]

Oh come on now, the buffering system is not that bad at all.

And Zero Suit Samus's chain Dsmash is different. It's not an infinite and a down smash is harder to hit with than a grab. This is also ONLY effecting Fox and Zss. It can't be done on Fox by half the cast.

7 people.


It can be done by 7 people. If that.

There are more than 14 people in the game.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

People are still going to infinite if it comes between them and a tourney win. Someone must find someway to get out of this.

 

[KiteDXX]

Of course he would be viable, and of course that flaw was most likely not intended.

But this is not going to change the metagame to a significant level at all. Harsh it may seem, but there are only 2 characters that are unplayable as a result of this. 2 out of 39, 1/20th of the game. Changing the rules of a match to cater to such a small percentage of the cast is ridiculous.

On the other hand, wobbling could be done to every single character in Melee. That affected a lot more than just 2 characters. It was more likely debated for ban than any other element that wasn't a glaring glitch in the game.

ZSS and Fox scenario? It only affects one matchup out of a huge possible set of matchups. That's also why it won't be banned; it's too limited in the first place, too demanding to enforce, affects very little, and doesn't destroy the game beyond one matchup that will not happen very often in the first place.

 

[Ztarfish]

I think he meant that it doesn't matter about Wolf grabbing Ness to a down smash because down smash is just as fast as a grab and has more reach in the first place.

I was saying that down smash is usually blockable, but if Wolf is facing Ness/Lucas, than even if he CAN'T chain grab, he can still use unblockable down smashes.

My mistake, I only read the posts starting when he "brought up" Wolf. I now see that he didn't.

Forgive me munkusbeaver (i think i spelled that right, I'm too lazy to go and check) A lot of misunderstanding on my part.

But seriously, I understood it more from one (sarcasm-free) post from Nessbounder than three from you. Take the **** vicious sarcasm out of your posts, maybe people will respond to you better.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Of course he would be viable, and of course that flaw was most likely not intended.

But this is not going to change the metagame to a significant level at all. Harsh it may seem, but there are only 2 characters that are unplayable as a result of this. 2 out of 39, 1/20th of the game. Changing the rules of a match to cater to such a small percentage of the cast is ridiculous.

On the other hand, wobbling could be done to every single character in Melee. That affected a lot more than just 2 characters. It was more likely debated for ban than any other element that wasn't a glaring glitch in the game.

ZSS and Fox scenario? It only affects one matchup out of a huge possible set of matchups. That's also why it won't be banned; it's too limited in the first place, too demanding to enforce, affects very little, and doesn't destroy the game beyond one matchup that will not happen very often in the first place.

This game is about the characters. Two perfectly good characters becoming useless because of a single tactic...what would you rather prefer, the ability to play as two more characters, or to be able to use a chain grab that wouldn't exist if it weren't for those two other characters?

 

[dr0go]

try doing it against a level 9 cpu and they can get out.but for some reason people think they cant and start calling characters useless.please research .ness and lucas can get get out if you continously press the jump button.they will get out while jumping at the same time.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

try doing it against a level 9 cpu and they can get out.but for some reason people think they cant and start calling characters useless.please research .ness and lucas can get get out if you continously press the jump button.they will get out while jumping at the same time.

LURK MORE.

It has been proven that you can't break out of it if your character is in a constant state of hitstun from a grab attack. Most grab attacks can be done constantly without the hitstun wearing off. If you break out during hitstun, you are forced to break out in front of the opponent.

 

[KiteDXX]

I would prefer the character variety any day, but did we see all 25 (and some alterations of a few of them) possible characters winning major tournaments in Melee's time? Did we see wobbling winning tournaments? We didn't, and we mostly likely won't see brackets all being destroyed because of this, either. We'll see favorites being impractical in a tournament setting, just like more than half the cast being impractical in a tournament setting in Melee.

Cort already did a rundown of Peach's ability of winning in a tournament environment on that discussion board, and it was a hard pill to swallow. You can't play favorites to win anymore; this is the real deal, real money, real competition, every exploit can and will be used against you within the realms of what's truly going to affect a large portion of the metagame and what isn't.

I didn't want this, nobody did I'm sure, but like I'm running through over and over, 2 characters being absent from the competitive scene due to programming flaws should not be getting special treatment to become usable in tournament play. I would lose all faith in the tournament scene the day I saw a Ness/Lucas win because someone wasn't able to grab them more than once without being disqualified.

 

[Ztarfish]

That has been covered earlier in the topic. Apparently if you press jump right at the exact moment (which is what the computers were doing) it's possible to get out of the grab by jumping. This also happens if for some reason the grabber stops grab-attacking. Computers have perfect timing, but humans sadly don't.

 

[munkus beaver]

My mistake, I only read the posts starting when he "brought up" Wolf. I now see that he didn't.

Forgive me munkusbeaver (i think i spelled that right, I'm too lazy to go and check) A lot of misunderstanding on my part.

But seriously, I understood it more from one (sarcasm-free) post from Nessbounder than three from you. Take the **** vicious sarcasm out of your posts, maybe people will respond to you better.

You want kindness, then give me competence. Don't cry foul when the whole mess stems from your end (I even pointed it out to you with my witty remark questioning your reading skills!)

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I would prefer the character variety any day, but did we see all 25 (and some alterations of a few of them) possible characters winning major tournaments in Melee's time? Did we see wobbling winning tournaments? We didn't, and we mostly likely won't see brackets all being destroyed because of this, either. We'll see favorites being impractical in a tournament setting, just like more than half the cast being impractical in a tournament setting in Melee.

Cort already did a rundown of Peach's ability of winning in a tournament environment on that discussion board, and it was a hard pill to swallow. You can't play favorites to win anymore; this is the real deal, real money, real competition, every exploit can and will be used against you within the realms of what's truly going to affect a large portion of the metagame and what isn't.

I didn't want this, nobody did I'm sure, but like I'm running through over and over, 2 characters being absent from the competitive scene due to programming flaws should not be getting special treatment to become usable in tournament play. I would lose all faith in the tournament scene the day I saw a Ness/Lucas win because someone wasn't able to grab them more than once without being disqualified.

The problem is, Peach suffers because she's an all around poor character. Ness and lucas are both competent characters that are shut down by something so trivial. Peach may be a poor character, but she can at least compete to the best of her ability. Lucas and Ness cannot do that because of this problem.

Basically, this is like a spot on a white sheet. If the spot wasn't there, there'd be no reason to throw away the sheet. You could very well use bleach to cover it up, but are you willing to pay for the bleach, or is it too difficult to go and buy it?

Peach is a raggedy piece of linen, but she's still great as a dishcloth. she has a place in the cupboard somewhere. Ness and Lucas should rightfully have a place in that cupboard too, except for this one blob of monkey turd that's keeping them out!

And I very much doubt that someone would be stupid enough to "accidentally" grab twice given the length of the animation from both releasing and breaking.

 

[Ztarfish]

You want kindness, then give me competence. Don't cry foul when the whole mess stems from your end (I even pointed it out to you with my witty remark questioning your reading skills!)

Right, I forgot yelling at the kid in your math class who's convinced his wrong solution is right is the best way to make him learn.

And ew, you called me incompetent. I'm deeply offended. (No sarcasm)

But honestly, now that the matter is behind us, i'm willing to actually discuss the topic now.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Well either way, the only way you should ever be trying to break out of this chain grab is by mashing X or Y, and holding away on the control stick. Mashing the A button won't help anything. XD

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Peach is a raggedy piece of linen, but she's still great as a dishcloth. she has a place in the cupboard somewhere. Ness and Lucas should rightfully have a place in that cupboard too, except for this one blob of monkey turd that's keeping them out!

This is horribly OT, but my god this was the funniest thing I've read all day. XD

In an attempt to avoid the modhammer, I'll provide input as a Lucas main. While I certainly would prefer if this got smacked with a ban ASAP, there's no feasible way it could be enforced that doesn't leave loopholes big enough to throw a pair of psychic kids through. IMO, the best way to get this resolved in a reasonable amount of time is to get it abused as much as possible at tournaments. Player cooperation may be required to the extent of "I went to the tourney with X, I used <Lucas/Ness>, he used <character that infinites Lucas/Ness>, this is how it went down." for the sake of recording as many instances of this as possible. If it's truly broken, then the competitive community will (hopefully) take notice and act. If it's not broken, then it's just another technique.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I guess. But in the mean time, Ness and Lucas mains will spend money to lose matches.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, if you're entering for the purpose of recording this, then you'll know that going in and will be able to make a choice of how much you're willing to spend (throw away?) to put the issue to rest.

OT the second: Unfounded Revenge just came up on my playlist as I was typing this. XD

EDIT: Also, it could technically be anyone, not just Lucas/Ness mains, though the mainers will certainly have more weight behind their statements since they have more experience/skill with the pair. But your point still stands.

 

[Evan BlazE]

is there a video about this problem?

if so, can someone link me to it..?

 

[munkus beaver]

I guess. But in the mean time, Ness and Lucas mains will spend money to lose matches.

I think you're way overreacting. You're calling the game at halftime here, the research ain't done to see if all of the guys are even true infinites. I know in a fight my friend broke out of my charizard chain, and I don't think I screwed up my timing. And it was hell in a handbasket to even get a grab, charizard gets wrecked by ness pretty easy. I was down a stock before I got my first grab in that game.

 

[goodoldganon]

I didn't want this, nobody did I'm sure, but like I'm running through over and over, 2 characters being absent from the competitive scene due to programming flaws should not be getting special treatment to become usable in tournament play. I would lose all faith in the tournament scene the day I saw a Ness/Lucas win because someone wasn't able to grab them more than once without being disqualified.

This pretty much sums up what I feel the backroom is feeling. It's a sad state of affairs to realize your main can be destroyed by something so trivial, but 2 characters do not deserve special treatment. That would be like saying "Well you shouldn't be able to fire more then 3 arrows at Ganondorf because he can't use any distance attacks." Granted ranged attacks don't make Ganon unplayable but you get the point.

If you want this banned, this needs to be a problem with a significant sum of the cast. But then if that happens say bye to the smash competitive scene cause no one will put up with that kind of BS.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

This pretty much sums up what I feel the backroom is feeling. It's a sad state of affairs to realize your main can be destroyed by something so trivial, but 2 characters do not deserve special treatment. That would be like saying "Well you shouldn't be able to fire more then 3 arrows at Ganondorf because he can't use any distance attacks." Granted ranged attacks don't make Ganon unplayable but you get the point.

If you want this banned, this needs to be a problem with a significant sum of the cast. But then if that happens say bye to the smash competitive scene cause no one will put up with that kind of BS.

That really is a bad example and doesn't even touch on the principle of the matter here.

It really is SO easy to enforce this rule, but nobody will ever do it because they're too stuck in their stupid ways to see things any differently.

There is NOTHING BUT BENEFIT to be gained from imposing a ban on this horrendously broken tactic that already limits precious resources in Brawl's fragile competitive scene.

 

[KiteDXX]

While I do appreciate the idealistic approach NESSBOUNDER has going for the topic, let's just be real about this.

It won't happen, at least not at this stage in time. It's only recently that we've even found this flaw, and it's still too early to make a call, especially when we cannot produce conclusive results beyond a shadow of a doubt. I'm pretty convinced it's not possible to break out of it with those specified characters, but I would be foolish to assume that as fact so early.

EDIT:

That really is a bad example and doesn't even touch on the principle of the matter here.

It really is SO easy to enforce this rule, but nobody will ever do it because they're too stuck in their stupid ways to see things any differently.

There is NOTHING BUT BENEFIT to be gained from imposing a ban on this horrendously broken tactic that already limits precious resources in Brawl's fragile competitive scene.

You're right, nothing but benefit...to the Ness/Lucas player. There is only a disadvantage being given to the other player, and even if they weren't intent on trying to infinite with the death grab, there is a steep penalty being enforced on the player if they really do manage to mess up and grab twice for a bizarre reason.

It's easy to enforce the rule, but the reasoning behind it isn't enough. To revive two characters in the competitive scene and make it a special type of game when playing against them simply isn't right.

 

[AdmantNESS]

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4425714&postcount=83

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQ-AKKso_Po

A video for those who want to see it.

 

[Levitas]

I'm sure it's not intentional, but I'm legitemately angry at Nintendo.

They absolutely refuse to publish Mother 1 or 3, they haven't yet released Earthbound on VC, they flaunt that fact by continuing to include 2 characters from that franchise, and they fail to realize that the characters are ****ING unusable.

I'll be less pissed the day Nintendo stops feeding us **** like this. Earthbound was never really given a chance in the US, and it's even worse everywhere else that isn't Japan.

It's like NoA is Pokey's Dad.

 

[munkus beaver]

It is hard to enforce the rule, because you're going to have to have an arbitrary amount of damage done before the move is verboten. 0%? 5%? 40%? Falco can do 40% easy with his chaingrab to virtually the entire cast, that's kosher. I know that I'm not going to choose a character I am unfamiliar with to beat a Ness/Lucas in a tourney, because they can easily go to a secondary for round 2 and hand me my butt.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It is hard to enforce the rule, because you're going to have to have an arbitrary amount of damage done before the move is verboten. 0%? 5%? 40%? Falco can do 40% easy with his chaingrab to virtually the entire cast, that's kosher. I know that I'm not going to choose a character I am unfamiliar with to beat a Ness/Lucas in a tourney, because they can easily go to a secondary for round 2 and hand me my butt.

I like this thing about secondaries and counter-picking, but you've got to remember that both Marth and Snake can do the infinite fairly well, and they are both very popular high-tier characters.

Also, they should just make it that you can't re-grab Lucas or ness immediately after they break out of a hold. Nice and simple. this isn't comparable to Falco's chain grab because that stops working after a certain %. this can be done any time.

 

[munkus beaver]

I like this thing about secondaries and counter-picking, but you've got to remember that both Marth and Snake can do the infinite fairly well, and they are both very popular high-tier characters.

Since when is the popularity of the character relevant?

 

[Ztarfish]

You're right, nothing but benefit...to the Ness/Lucas player. There is only a disadvantage being given to the other player, and even if they weren't intent on trying to infinite with the death grab, there is a steep penalty being enforced on the player if they really do manage to mess up and grab twice for a bizarre reason.

It's easy to enforce the rule, but the reasoning behind it isn't enough. To revive two characters in the competitive scene and make it a special type of game when playing against them simply isn't right.

There IS no disadvantage given to the other character. It's rather neutral.
Skilled Marth vs. Skilled Ness. A pretty even match, could go either one way or the other, neither one disadvantaged (disregarding matchup advantages)
Skilled Marth vs. Skilled Ness w/ Deathgrab. Marth wins, Ness disadvantaged

The only disadvantaged character I see is Ness, I see no way in which Marth's game is terribly gimped without the deathgrab. Especially since they've been getting along fine without it up to this point.

 

[KiteDXX]

Just as easily, you could use a different character and avoid this huge mess entirely. You want to win, you're going to have to deal with it. Even if they were going to be great before this flaw was found, it doesn't make it any more necessary to ban the technique other than for an idealistic balance to be restored, albeit a flawed balance, because one side has a significant disadvantage if they do something simple while the other side is free to do whatever they want, because they won't be punished out a grab anywhere near as significantly as if they were played without this imposed ruling. It's a handicap, and handicaps aren't supposed to be a factor in tournament play.

And even if this rule were found ideal for the scene, how many tournament hosters you do seriously think will enforce this? It's just pointless grief that we have to watch a Ness/Lucas match more carefully because of a problem in the game that was beyond our control.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Since when is the popularity of the character relevant?

Because more people will use these characters as their mains, meaning they most likely won't even have to change to a secondary if they come up against a Ness or Lucas.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Just as easily, you could use a different character and avoid this huge mess entirely. You want to win, you're going to have to deal with it. Even if they were going to be great before this flaw was found, it doesn't make it any more necessary to ban the technique other than for an idealistic balance to be restored, albeit a flawed balance, because one side has a significant disadvantage if they do something simple while the other side is free to do whatever they want, because they won't be punished out a grab anywhere near as significantly as if they were played without this imposed ruling. It's a handicap, and handicaps aren't supposed to be a factor in tournament play.

And even if this rule were found ideal for the scene, how many tournament hosters you do seriously think will enforce this? It's just pointless grief that we have to watch a Ness/Lucas match more carefully because of a problem in the game that was beyond our control.

I'd rather have two more characters to play as than a chain grab that doesn't exist.

What you're basically saying is that either the Lucas and Ness go, or the chain grab goes. I think that two characters are much more valuable than the chain grab, and so what if people are too lazy to monitor the matches? A little extra effort so that we can have more character diversity sounds like a good trade off to me.

 

[goodoldganon]

You're right, nothing but benefit...to the Ness/Lucas player. There is only a disadvantage being given to the other player, and even if they weren't intent on trying to infinite with the death grab, there is a steep penalty being enforced on the player if they really do manage to mess up and grab twice for a bizarre reason.

It's easy to enforce the rule, but the reasoning behind it isn't enough. To revive two characters in the competitive scene and make it a special type of game when playing against them simply isn't right.

Once again, I'm sorry that Nintendo and Sakurai were so set on making this game more noob-friendly and what not. I'm sorry they didn't playtest the game for some of the MAJOR gamebreaking tactics. But Ness and Lucas don't deserve special treatment because of that.

It's late here so I'm sure my ideas aren't as fluent as I want them to be but hopefully you get the point. To sum it up:

Banning this tactic only benefits two characters. I'm sorry that it was your two characters. I'd be pissed if it was DK and Ganondorf. But, changing the way over half the roster fights two characters is blatant special treatment.


EDIT

I'd rather have two more characters to play as than a chain grab that doesn't exist.

What you're basically saying is that either the Lucas and Ness go, or the chain grab goes. I think that two characters are much more valuable than the chain grab, and so what if people are too lazy to monitor the matches? A little extra effort so that we can have more character diversity sounds like a good trade off to me.

Sadly, this "chaingrab" is just seen as a weakness to character. If we ban the use of one of Ness's/Lucas's weaknesses, then every character needs to have one of their weaknesses banned. Yes, Ness/Lucas's is gamebreaking for them but that's how the cookie crumbles sometimes.

 

[Ztarfish]

I think part of the problem is that since it only applies to Ness and Lucas, it's purely a Ness and Lucas problem. A little extra effort to monitor may sound like a good tradeoff to you, but to someone who doesn't even use them, and doesn't plan on it, it sounds like a bad tradeoff. Not their problem, even if they don't use the chaingrab, so why put in the effort?