Does the lack of tipper put you off?

[BSXDrayden]

It doesn't really bother me *too* much. I like it cause I don't need to worry as much about spacing. It's been bothering me a little in a way though as it means I don't have an incentive to actually not get within opponents' grab ranges by accident.

 

[Rewrite]

The lack of a tipper throws me off so incredibly hard. Not only does Lucina not have the added tipper power, but it's hit box simply does not exist. Whenever I try to space as Lucina I always try to space for the tip of the sword, but because I'm so used to Marth I'll always get the sparks effect signalling it's barely missed.

I was fine with the tipper's power absent from Lucina, but the final nail in the coffin for me was the shorter range.

 

[Iceweasel]

It doesn't annoy me - After all, that's why I switched from Marth in Brawl to Lucina in Smash 4. It does mess me up, though, because my Lucina playstyle is almost identical to my Brawl Marth playstyle, and I keep missing hits I know I could have made because my old habits told me to wait a few frames for the tipper.

I'd play Marth, but with his crazy range nerf I don't think he's viable in Smash 4. He still rack up damage a little better than Lucina, but when it comes time to go for the kill opponents are too cautious to get the tipper. On average, by the time I get the tipper, the opponent is in kill percents for Lucina anyways. While Marth has the power to kill early, if my opponent's being too cautious it may be awhile before the kill comes. I decided to play Lucina instead of Marth because, while they they kill at about the same percents on average, Lucina is far more consistent.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

For me, the tipper is all that makes Marth playable in this iteration of Smash. He's been nerfed, but now it's even more satisfying to land a raw tipper KO on some top-tier lightweight like Rosalina or Pikachu. I like Lucina a lot more as a character, and her taunts, alt costumes, death cry, victory screen shenanigans, just her everything is a lot better, BUT I rarely actually play as her because it just doesn't feel right. She lacks his KO power.

 

[Funkermonster]

It doesn't annoy me - After all, that's why I switched from Marth in Brawl to Lucina in Smash 4. It does mess me up, though, because my Lucina playstyle is almost identical to my Brawl Marth playstyle, and I keep missing hits I know I could have made because my old habits told me to wait a few frames for the tipper.

I'd play Marth, but with his crazy range nerf I don't think he's viable in Smash 4. He still rack up damage a little better than Lucina, but when it comes time to go for the kill opponents are too cautious to get the tipper. On average, by the time I get the tipper, the opponent is in kill percents for Lucina anyways. While Marth has the power to kill early, if my opponent's being too cautious it may be awhile before the kill comes. I decided to play Lucina instead of Marth because, while they they kill at about the same percents on average, Lucina is far more consistent.

I greatly disagree that Lucina is more consistent at getting kills than he is. Lucina actually has a lot of trouble killing in general, and I think she's better played as a defensive footsies character who takes stocks mainly from offstage edgeguarding or hard reads. A lack of reliable kill options is considered one of her weaknesses and her killing game is really not as potent as it looks:

• Cannot kill most characters until like 110%
• No guaranteed way to land any of them, except for Fthrow into Crescent Slash at the ledge if you count custom moves (but Marth can do it too, they both have this kill combo). And as good as it is, Crescent Slash isn't even a straight upgrade to Dolphin Slash: you lose a great OoS option, can't go as deep for edgeguards, and your recovery arguably becomes even worse and more limited than before.
• Pretty much all of her kill moves are sluggish and take too long to end, and should only ever be used out of a hard read or else you will get punished hard. A problem with both Marth and Lucina in general: a lot of their attacks are pretty slow and not too safe on shield.

Meanwhile, while Marth's range nerf was pretty bad, its still possible to get tippers. And while his kill moves are still pretty unsafe, you can still get KOs at around 60% and cuts the time in half you'd take to kill with Lucina. A Good Marth will know when to change between the tipped and non-tipped strikes bewteen the match, and as you get better at spacing you will begin to consistently land more tippers overtime, even with his nerfs. If you are having too much trouble landing it, that means your opponent is controlling the pace of the fight and is at an advantaged position and has the ball (think of of it like a game of basketball, when one member of the opposing team has the ball on-hand and is coming closer to scoring a point if they get into your hoop, and you have to try and steal it back), they are just winning the neutral game and kinda outplaying you. I think you should just work on your spacing and making better reads on your opponent, if you can do that you'll barely have any issues killing with Marth anymore. Wheras with Lucina, you might still have trouble getting a point even past 110% unless your opponent makes too many mistakes. And even if you don't tip with Marth, you can still kill around the same percents Lucina can anyway, and he can still gimp and edgeguard just as well as she does.

I'd play Marth, but with his crazy range nerf I don't think he's viable in Smash 4. He still rack up damage a little better than Lucina, but when it comes time to go for the kill opponents are too cautious to get the tipper. On average, by the time I get the tipper, the opponent is in kill percents for Lucina anyways. While Marth has the power to kill early, if my opponent's being too cautious it may be awhile before the kill comes. I decided to play Lucina instead of Marth because, while they they kill at about the same percents on average, Lucina is far more consistent.

I...... I Hate to break it to you dude, but Lucina isn't really considered any better. So far in the metagame, the general consensus is that Lucina is very likely a bottom 15 character and is not too great a character overall sadly. Honestly, Marth and Lucina are both mostly the same character, have the same strengths and weaknesses, win against and lose against the same characters, and you have to play them both almost the exact same way. They both suffer from the same weak points and you can defeat them mostly the same way: Shield a lot, Punish, and get them offstage. The only differences in the way that you play them are that her attacks are less safe on shield, have slightly less range (she does have a smaller hurtbox though), and has a LOT more trouble killing. Her moves simply take too long to end and are far too unsafe on shield, and as such you still have to learn how to space with Lucina to avoid punishment, even without the tipper. If you can't space with either of them, you can't play them well, but if you can Marth will overall reward you more for it. Some might also make an argument that both characters are lacking and that neither is really viable, but that's something else.

 

[Shaya]

Uhhh, for the sake of whatever,
Marth's range wasn't nerfed from Brawl, in fact most of his moves bar Forward Smash have bigger range (a few are the same).

Other characters received ranged buffs. What got neutered was his frame data.

 

[Rewrite]

The thing about Lucina as a fighter is that she suffers from the same problem Pichu had in Melee: She is essentially an inferior version of another fighter. Marth is above her on every tier list for a reason.

Compared to Marth she has:

• inferior range
• inferior damage
• inferior killing power
• no hit-lag modifiers

The only thing she has on Marth is a slightly smaller hurt-box, but it's only a small difference and doesn't really allow Lucina to avoid anything that hits Marth.

Some people will argue that Lucina has a few moves that are superior to Marth's such as up-smash and Dancing Blade. The general argument here is that since they are 'hard' moves to properly space the tipper on. That's sort of a moot point since it doesn't matter if you can space, but let's indulge it for a bit.

The thing about Lucina's Dancing Blade is it does the same damage as Marth's un-tippered Dancing Blade save for one percent.

Shield Breaker is another one that gets brought up since Lucina's Shield Breaker with a bit of charge will likely take out a shield. Again though, if you're spacing is on point a tippered Shield Breaker charged for less than half a second is pretty much a guaranteed shield break on anything that isn't Shulk in Shield Monado. I also find the Shield Breaker to be one of Marth's easiest moves to tip and it will take stocks surprisingly early. A fully charged, tipped Shield breaker will kill at around 30% percent. If you break your opponents Shield it's pretty much free.

The only arguable move for Lucina is up-smash since the tip is in such a specific spot for Marth. It's a super situational move though and up-tilt is almost always a better option on both characters for juggling. For killing Marth still has the incredible power of the tipper, and besides the un-tippered up-smash doesn't kill much later than Lucina's.



I believe what makes a character a clone of another character is if they have an incredibly similar move-set and play the same way. For example: Fox and Falco have incredibly similar move-sets, but there are small differences sprinkled throughout that make them play entirely different from one another.

Lucina is a clone of Marth. There are no disparities between their kits that warrant a different play-style from one or the other. The way both characters are meant to played is rely on poking and whittling away at your opponent much like how a river wears down a stone. This is accomplished through proper spacing and keeping your opponent at a fixed distance: the tip of your sword.

Here Lucina already starts to fall behind Marth as a character.

Marth has longer range so his zone of pressure is greater than Lucina's. If the goal is too keep my opponents at the edge of my danger-zone, then obviously the character with more range (on the exact same attacks mind you) is more adept at this task. In regards to the tipper: I'd rather have a larger reward for properly spacing with a character whose all about that sort of thing than one whom, while less punishing, will ultimately reward me less. It doesn't even become a contest for players who can consistently space.

Marth also has the hit-lag modifiers on his attacks so they are safer. It's that trait that ironically enables Marth to take a little more risk than Lucina despite having the large sour-spot on his attacks.

I've seen a lot of people state that they prefer Lucina over Marth because they don't have (or want to) worry about spacing for the tipper. I feel these people miss the point of the tipper and see it as something extra, as a little bonus of sorts, and because Lucina doesn't have it it somehow negates her need for spacing and requirement of keeping her opponents at the very edge of her hurt-boxes. If anything it's harder for her. It's the whole reason why Melee Marth was originally introduced with the tipper as a mechanic instead of just having great range and being left at that.

Everything about the tipper gives you incentive to try and land it. It's not just that it's better to land because it deals way more damage and knockback, but it feels good to do so. It's almost like a drug. There's the visual aspect of even while at 0% your opponent flies so far and the screen shakes just a little harder. In Smash 4 seeing the red lightning effect at 50% gives me chills even if it doesn't kill my opponent. In Melee the swords don't even sound like proper swords but they're still so satisfying to hear. Marth's un-tippered hits already have those super great sound-effects, but then you land a tippered hit and it sounds akin to a giant drum being struck at full force. Overall it's just this incredibly satisfying feeling for Marth. It also feels like a massive blow to the gut for your opponent.

To re-answer the original question: Yes, the lack of a tipper puts me off horribly so. I find Lucina unplayable as a character not because she's considered bad or low-tier, but because there is already a pre-existing character whom already does everything she does better. Whenever I play Lucina I'll commonly whiff attacks against opponent's because I'm spacing for the tipper and it just makes me want to play Marth whom has better range and will reward me with greater damage and earlier kills. Lucina also only has the standard un-tippered effects on her attacks. None of her attacks have that 'oomph' feeling that landing the tipper gives. Lucina is ultimately rewards me less for working harder and feels less satisfying to play.



I felt like a large post in some form on the attitude people take when addressing Marth vs Lucina's differences (especially from Lucina's side) has been a long time coming from me. I'm normally one to let bygones be bygones after arguing something for a bit and getting nowhere.

I understand that people play as Lucina. I understand why people play as Lucina. I understand why people would prefer her over Marth in Smash 4. it doesn't man she isn't inferior to Marth though.

I like Lucina as a character as well. I have nothing against her nor the people who play her. I'm happy that she in Smash and I know a lot of others are really happy about it as well, but it does no one any good to delude themselves and claim stuff like "Because Lucina doesn't have a tipper she doesn't need to worry about spacing and can get more aggressive." I'm pretty sure someone mentioned whether you prefer Marth or Lucina comes down to your own personal play-style (What? They play exactly the same way...)

What really gets me is that It's false information and can be detrimental to new players considering either character. If you just want to play casually then of course it's fine. If you're going to a tournament though Marth will carry you further once you've mastered his spacing. He outperforms Lucina in every aspect, does better in all of their match-ups, and has a positive match-up against Lucina. That's just the way it is.

 

[Shaya]

Also, another nitpick. The range difference between the two is really miniscule, their swords are the same, just her arms are ever so slightly shorter (blame human body symmetry). It's probably somewhere between the difference of their heights to half of that.

The recent buffs did bring Lucina closer to Marth. Both got the use of dancing blade back, which honestly the damage difference is meagre but if Marth tippers it (which is definitely feasible to do) it can be killing sub 100%. But her buffs could result in a +1 frame advantage gained on several of her moves, it all matters; and as I've said before the main crux of Lucina's use over Marth is their forward smashes, even if Marth's tipper fsmash is ludicrous, Lucina's fsmash is insanely strong, the buff is noticed by many (damage scales linearly with move knock back) and while things like hit confirming into tipper fsmash is possible on Marth, the consistency of Lucina's fsmash can't really be denied.

I appreciate your post though, covered a lot of things on multiple levels.

 

[Saki-]

It's that small difference in length that makes would be punishes with Marth, miss with Lucina. I also miss reverse f'smash hitting people on platforms on battlefield. Alas Lucina is still love

 

[BSXDrayden]

Honestly, I admit that Lucina is objectively worse than Marth and occasionally I have doubts as to her ability or as to if I should keep maining her but in the end it's as simple as me finding her fun to play and enjoying the challenge of taking her issues and trying to play with her despite them.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucina having no tipper or any sweetspot is OK lol, anything to set this complete clone apart is good.

 

[Rewrite]

Also, another nitpick. The range difference between the two is really miniscule, their swords are the same, just her arms are ever so slightly shorter (blame human body symmetry). It's probably somewhere between the difference of their heights to half of that.

The recent buffs did bring Lucina closer to Marth. Both got the use of dancing blade back, which honestly the damage difference is meagre but if Marth tippers it (which is definitely feasible to do) it can be killing sub 100%. But her buffs could result in a +1 frame advantage gained on several of her moves, it all matters; and as I've said before the main crux of Lucina's use over Marth is their forward smashes, even if Marth's tipper fsmash is ludicrous, Lucina's fsmash is insanely strong, the buff is noticed by many (damage scales linearly with move knock back) and while things like hit confirming into tipper fsmash is possible on Marth, the consistency of Lucina's fsmash can't really be denied.

I appreciate your post though, covered a lot of things on multiple levels.

The range difference is not a nitpick. It's an actual problem for Lucina. It has nothing to do with her arms. It's flat-out a hitbox she does not have. It's as Tasya said:

It's that small difference in length that makes would be punishes with Marth, miss with Lucina...

I mentioned earlier that whenever I play Lucina I miss a lot of aerials because I space for Marth's range. This means Lucina has to play closer to her opponent than Marth. That's a huge problem when you will always have Marth's worst frame-data. There's nothing small about it.

I mentioned the Marth vs Lucina match-up earlier. If you had a Marth and Lucina f-air at each other from their maximum range Lucina's would whiff while Marth's would tipper. That is a gigantic advantage in Marth's favour.

But her buffs could result in a +1 frame advantage gained on several of her moves...

Lucina has only received confirmed buffs on the damage of her Shield Breaker, f-air, d-tilt, f-smash, and d-smashes second hit. Where does this frame data stuff you're talking about come from? She still lacks the hit-lag modifier. She will always recover from her attacks at the same speed as Marth at his longest.

...as I've said before the main crux of Lucina's use over Marth is their forward smashes, even if Marth's tipper fsmash is ludicrous, Lucina's fsmash is insanely strong, the buff is noticed by many (damage scales linearly with move knock back) and while things like hit confirming into tipper fsmash is possible on Marth, the consistency of Lucina's fsmash can't really be denied.

Did you actually just try to argue that Lucina's f-smash is better than Marth's because it's more consistent than trying to space the tipper?

I'll indulge this for a second and break down both character's forward smashes.

Of course there is the obvious difference of Marth's f-smash having more range and the hitlag modifier which is two massive points. Then there is the other thing you mentioned which is killing power. Not accounting for staling Lucina's f-smash will start killing mid-weight characters at upwards of 80% at the edge of battlefield. Marth's un-tippered f-smash will start killing mid-weight characters at upwards of 100% under the same conditions. It's a little over 20% difference.

It's not just f-smash though. It's like that for all the tippered moves. Marth has a surprising amount of killing power on a lot of moves outside his smash attacks. Simply hitting someone with a tippered f-air off-stage can send them straight into the blast-zone depending on how deep you go. At around 70% you don't have to go very deep for it at all for a tippered aerial to knock someone straight into the blastzone.

I see a lot of people argue that Lucina's moves are better than Marth's because they are more "consistent" and act like landing the tipper is like winning the lottery. In the hands of a player who is adept at spacing and reading the tipper is consistent. That is what makes it so powerful.

It's this kind of misinformation spreading that I mentioned earlier that really gets to me. As I said earlier I have no issue with Lucina or the people who play her, but when stuff like this gets said and goes uncontested people will believe it's true. It doesn't help anyone and it can be harmful for new players.

I don't remember who said it or where, but it was said that the Lucina boards generally don't see a lot of actual competitive discussion because of stuff like this. People are more content to sit in la-la land and try to make excuses to justify picking Lucina.

You play Lucina because you like her as a character. That's all of the justification you should need.

 

[Troykv]

The range difference is not a nitpick. It's an actual problem for Lucina. It has nothing to do with her arms. It's flat-out a hitbox she does not have. It's as Tasya said:



I mentioned earlier that whenever I play Lucina I miss a lot of aerials because I space for Marth's range. This means Lucina has to play closer to her opponent than Marth. That's a huge problem when you will always have Marth's worst frame-data. There's nothing small about it.

I mentioned the Marth vs Lucina match-up earlier. If you had a Marth and Lucina f-air at each other from their maximum range Lucina's would whiff while Marth's would tipper. That is a gigantic advantage in Marth's favour.



Lucina has only received confirmed buffs on the damage of her Shield Breaker, f-air, d-tilt, f-smash, and d-smashes second hit. Where does this frame data stuff you're talking about come from? She still lacks the hit-lag modifier. She will always recover from her attacks at the same speed as Marth at his longest.



Did you actually just try to argue that Lucina's f-smash is better than Marth's because it's more consistent than trying to space the tipper?

I'll indulge this for a second and break down both character's forward smashes.

Of course there is the obvious difference of Marth's f-smash having more range and the hitlag modifier which is two massive points. Then there is the other thing you mentioned which is killing power. Not accounting for staling Lucina's f-smash will start killing mid-weight characters at upwards of 80% at the edge of battlefield. Marth's un-tippered f-smash will start killing mid-weight characters at upwards of 100% under the same conditions. It's a little over 20% difference.

It's not just f-smash though. It's like that for all the tippered moves. Marth has a surprising amount of killing power on a lot of moves outside his smash attacks. Simply hitting someone with a tippered f-air off-stage can send them straight into the blast-zone depending on how deep you go. At around 70% you don't have to go very deep for it at all for a tippered aerial to knock someone straight into the blastzone.

I see a lot of people argue that Lucina's moves are better than Marth's because they are more "consistent" and act like landing the tipper is like winning the lottery. In the hands of a player who is adept at spacing and reading the tipper is consistent. That is what makes it so powerful.

It's this kind of misinformation spreading that I mentioned earlier that really gets to me. As I said earlier I have no issue with Lucina or the people who play her, but when stuff like this gets said and goes uncontested people will believe it's true. It doesn't help anyone and it can be harmful for new players.

I don't remember who said it or where, but it was said that the Lucina boards generally don't see a lot of actual competitive discussion because of stuff like this. People are more content to sit in la-la land and try to make excuses to justify picking Lucina.

You play Lucina because you like her as a character. That's all of the justification you should need.

Lucina is a Worst Marth basically...

Think you could help her something specific?

And the worst character in the game as the Japanese Tier

 

[Shaya]

Disjoints means more than range a lot of the time. Marth historically hasn't had more range than everyone.
The range difference is as critical to Lucina as Lucina being smaller is as critical to Marth. Of course the ditto between them will be skewed towards Marth. But what about Sheik's fair that usually beats Marth's because she comes from above faster and always hits Marth's hand first? At some range, Lucina's wouldn't.

You're legitimately echoing everything I've ever said in the Marth vs Lucina "debate", but are arguing with me when I correct your misunderstandings. You weigh your argument heavily on their range through bias. Try not to be a parrot. It's a noted difference, but you're making it out significantly more important than it is.

The main contrast of the two characters isn't hit lag modifiers, but Marth having sweet spots and sour spots. You seem to blanket this concept as hit lag modifiers, showing me you don't fully understand how hit lag modifiers effect things. Marth's sour hits are at best 2-3 frames safer than Lucinas, and on moves like her dtilt and fair being 1 frame safer is actually a lot bigger an impact than their heights.

Marth's combination of rewards and damage output assuming competent player heavily outdoes Lucina in every instance with the exception of Forward Smash. Most moves they share are similar knockback growths and bases with damage being the critical difference. Lucina's forward smash is significantly stronger/an outlier. While Up Smash being a 10% difference really doesn't justify Lucina's usage, the 30% differences WITHOUT RAGE (when considering DI) is very noticeable. As a punish (the primary means of using the move), Lucina's is better and Marth mains would probably be willing to trade theirs for it.

We don't need to shoehorn everything as Matrh having everything better than Lucina. In practicality this is the case in nearly every way.
Lucina having multiple damage buffs while Marth did not brings her closer in capabilities to Marth, one way or another. But the main factor that defines Marth being a deeper character with better game play rewards is him having sweetspots and sour spots, while Lucina does not.

I know very good players who prefer Lucina just for her forward smash, and I can't really deny their claims if they want to have a playstyle that is more focal around that move; the maths is right there.

 

[RonNewcomb]

Are there any differences between Marth's and Lucina's customs? I don't think there are, but want to check if anyone knows different.

Honestly, Marth and Lucina are both mostly the same character, have the same strengths and weaknesses, win against and lose against the same characters, and you have to play them both almost the exact same way.

Basically agreed, except for a nitpick on the bolded part: there are characters who basically ignore footsies/spacing due to sheer speed, and for those characters, Lucina is a bit better. I heard this from a.. uh, Sonic or Pikachu player somewhere. "Sort of getting in" is an option they have against Marth when they only get caught by the sourspot on the way in, but its all or nothing with Lucina.

 

[Rewrite]

To me, disjoints mean more to a character than range. Marth has historically been outranged by some choice characters in every game. In melee it was Falco.
In Brawl it was DK, Rob, Wolf, MK, Snake, ZSS, so on (Falco ftilt and jab were still like as big as our sword though).
That didn't matter, Marth outspaced these characters played properly because of his sword length (and arcing animations)
My decade of Marth experiences is telling you that the difference is hardly worth considering. ONE semi-note worthy thing is battlefield platforms. Marth isn't getting fsmashes on battlefield platforms hardly ever these days either, that functionality was cut back from Brawl as it is.

The range difference is as critical to Lucina as Lucina being smaller and harder to hit is as critical to Marth. You're weighing your argument so heavily on this I cannot help but start to think you're a biased idiot.


Fair and dtilt potentially being +1 safety on shield is big. Every frame matters.

You're also legitimately echoing everything I've ever said and then arguing with me when I correct you. IF you're just going to throw "hit lag modifiers" in my face when you don't even seem to understand them like I do... what can I say? Are you just a parrot? It's sounding like it.

Marth and Lucina's attacks have often very similar knockback growths and bases, this is relatively consistent for all of their moves. Lucina's fsmash is the true exception to this, with a lot more growth/base in contrast to their other moves in such a way that the difference will be heavily noticeable. Up Smash? It's like a 10% difference; basically Marth using his moves normally and being a competent player will cover this a majority of the time. Fsmashes though? It can be as bigger than a 30% difference, WITHOUT RAGE.

I'd rather tell Lucina's the truth then shoehorning everything as Marth is better. Marth is better in practically every way, but the exception is forward smash.
Lucina having multiple damage buffs while Marth did not brings her closer in capabilities to Marth, one way or another. But the main factor that defines Marth being a deeper character with better game play rewards is him having sweetspots and sour spots, while Lucina doesn't; "hit lag modifiers" is what you blanket this as.

This would make sense if the hit-lag modifier wasn't a valid point along with everything else I said. I fail to see how Marth recovering froma whiffed attack faster than lucina does not make a difference. I'm not parroting you. I'm giving explanations and providing evidence for my points to which you're argument seems to be "because I said so" and trying to straw-man me.

To me, disjoints mean more to a character than range.

Like actually, what are you talking about?

First of all, disjoint IS a character's range. A disjointed hit-box is a hit-box that is not attached to a character's hurt-box. Almost all of the hit-boxes in Smash are disjointed ones. This means Lucina's disjoint is shorter than Marth's because her range is shorter. You also mentioned that there has always been moves that out-range Marth's attacks, but that means they would out-range Lucina harder. Good job on that one.

My decade of Marth experiences is telling you that the difference is hardly worth considering.

...The range difference is as critical to Lucina as Lucina being smaller and harder to hit is as critical to Marth.

You're experience is clearly showing with you actually not knowing what you're talking about. I've already proven with numerous examples and points (that you seem to enjoy ignoring) about how being able to keep you're opponent at a further distance and having a larger area for punishing is a huge advantage. Lucina having a smaller hurt-box doesn't matter as much when my hit-box out-prioritizes hers.

You're also legitimately echoing everything I've ever said and then arguing with me when I correct you. IF you're just going to throw "hit lag modifiers" in my face when you don't even seem to understand them like I do... what can I say? Are you just a parrot? It's sounding like it.

Again, straw-manning. Instead of actually addressing any of the points I've made it's clearly better for your argument to just mock mine. If that's all you can do then it shows how much of an argument you actually have. There is nothing in your post that tries to challenge or refute anything I said.

Lucina's fsmash is the true exception to this, with a lot more growth/base in contrast to their other moves in such a way that the difference will be heavily noticeable.

...Fsmashes though? It can be as bigger than a 30% difference, WITHOUT RAGE.

Again, you haven't tried to refute my argument. All you've done is say "I'm right because I say so." You haven't provided any reason against mine for why Lucina's f--smash is better.

In my last post I said this: 'Not accounting for staling Lucina's f-smash will start killing mid-weight characters at upwards of 80% at the edge of battlefield. Marth's un-tippered f-smash will start killing mid-weight characters at upwards of 100% under the same conditions. It's a little over 20% difference."

Rage was not a factor in this experiment so I know that your crap about a 30% difference in when they kill is just that: Crap.

There is also no way you can boast about the knockback scaling on Lucina's f-smash while conveniently ignoring the scaling on Marth's tippered f-smash which a good player will be landing consistently.

I'd rather tell Lucina's the truth then shoehorning everything as Marth is better. Marth is better in practically every way, but the exception is forward smash.

An exception that is entirely untrue for the aforementioned reasons.

Lucina having multiple damage buffs while Marth did not brings her closer in capabilities to Marth, one way or another.

Cool. Marth still does a lot more damage and knock-back on every hit.

"hit lag modifiers" is what you blanket this as.

Except hit-lag modifiers was just one of many points I had.

You are deluding yourself and I don't care about that. What I care about is that you're purposefully spreading misinformation to try to justify picking Lucina as a character.

I already said if you like Lucina then play here. That's all the justification that you need. You are HURTING you're character more than you are helping.

This is clearly not a conversation worth sinking any more time and effort into since no matter what you are going to sit in your own little world. I just hope you don't drag anyone in with you.

 

[Shaya]

I reclarified my post, go from there.
You don't actually provide evidence at all, you're full of it lol.

1. Hit lag modifiers don't apply unless you actually hit someone. Whoops, you don't understand hit lag modifiers after all.
2.
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=marth&mode=view104#subaction-050
http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=lucina&mode=view104#subaction-050

Both have the same scaling on their jabs for their default vs sour spot hits. This is pretty common (tilts, etc). For scaling differences that do matter, it's usually a 5 point difference.
Lucina: KBG=0x32, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x14
Marth: KBG=0x32, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x14,

Here's Marth's Forward Smash: KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37
Here's Lucina's: KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x41

Which is 10 difference.

If Marth players were getting consistent tipper fsmashes in tournaments, Marth would be winning tournaments. There are no reliable set ups into Fsmash, and a power shield or shield drop punish with it is (by any competent player's opinion I'm sure) the most reliable use of it. Lucina will be getting more out of this specific scenario than Marth will.

3. "Crap" about kill difference
So you're measuring from the edge of battlefield and a 20% difference, likely without DI doesn't mean much to you? Do you even play smash brothers?

4. No, disjoint is the distance between a character's hurtboxes and hitboxes. Marth and Lucina's is the exact same.
Range different is miniscule. Again, I was the one who intently scoured and sort out the differences between the two characters and their range difference was one of my findings, back then and now I iterate that it's not significant.

5. I'm not spreading misinformation at all. You just don't understand the game as well as you make out to.

6. I never denied that Lucina shouldn't be used over Marth. But the main crux to this was always "doing the exact same things, Marth will always come out on top". I heed thoughts on why they may prefer Lucina over another, and as much as I don't think there's a future in Lucina having Forward Smash as her crutch, a player using it well will be able to have different results to Marth doing the same.

 

[Rewrite]

Also, what the actual hell. Did you really just try to claim Falco out-ranged Marth in Melee? With the exception of his clone and a few choice moves (none of which belong to Falco), Marth has the greatest range in Melee.

EDIT: In regards to the hit-lag modifier I didn't realize I wrote "whiffed" instead of "hit". I actually feel like a massive idiot about that. That's my fault and I apologize.

My argument about the hit-lag modifier comes from if you hit the opponent's shield (provided it isn't a perfect shield) it can be the difference between getting punished or not. I also never mentioned the shield at any point which is also on me.

In the infinitely wise words of Chillindude, "My B."

The rest of my points still stand though.

CASUAL CONVERSATION EDIT: @ Shaya , Sheik's back air infuriates me to end. In my local scene I find I struggle against Sheik's harder than any other character. Fox and Falco's insane speed and shine pressure don't phase me too hard since I can wait for that opening, but Sheik's back air when fighting is always in the back of my mind and it gets to me pretty hard. It's a mental block I have yet to overcome.

 

[Shaya]

Falco's ftilt and forward smash are pretty good.
His legs outstretched Marth's sword, but they aren't disjoints. He could abuse the "blind spots" (like Sheik's fair does in Smash4). Sheik's back air was a noticeable longer ranged move too.

 

[Blaziking17]

It doesn't bother me at all. I've always preferred the other FE characters than Marth.

 

[Liyrex]

No. Im more aggro with the two of them anyway so i rarely get the tipper with marth in Sm4sh

 

[Streamline]

No, actually I find it better without tipper because I'm not constantly trying to use it making me more flexible in my gameplay.