Does Project M hate Sonic?

[Tero.]

Doesn't Sethlon dominate his scene with like every character he plays?
How is that gonna proof that Sonic 2.6. isn't a horrible excuse of a character?

 

[DMG]

There's no pleasing you people. Go back to thinking he's bot 5 for all I care. Instead of maybe having a conversation that lead somewhere productive, you're gonna nitpick. Booooo there's not 100 videos boo Sethlon too good boooooooooooooooo

 

[Tero.]

I don't wanna lead 2.6 Sonic into anything productive.
He's not fun and I'm not gonna play him until they change something.

 

[DMG]

Ok
10SonicNerfs

 

[cmart]

On the subject of Wizzrobe - We looked at 2.5 Sonics at ALL levels of play, and noticed across the board abuse and toxicity. Claiming we only look at whoever is winning tournaments is a misconception of how we examine the metagame. It's unfortunate that a single player's performance can overshadow a character's metagame like that, but rest assured we investigate more than the most recent tournament results.

 

[DMG]

Thank you based Cmart

 

[Wizzrobe]

There's no pleasing you people. Go back to thinking he's bot 5 for all I care. Instead of maybe having a conversation that lead somewhere productive, you're gonna nitpick. Booooo there's not 100 videos boo Sethlon too good boooooooooooooooo

Welcome to the project m boards.

 

[Solharath]

On the subject of Wizzrobe - We looked at 2.5 Sonics at ALL levels of play, and noticed across the board abuse and toxicity. Claiming we only look at whoever is winning tournaments is a misconception of how we examine the metagame. It's unfortunate that a single player's performance can overshadow a character's metagame like that, but rest assured we investigate more than the most recent tournament results.

To be fair, when one person dominates at the level Wizzy did, with video evidence, the Sonic's across the board are going to emulate the one good player. If Wizzy's playstyle was considered toxic(tbh I never watched Wizzy much except for APEX), and the Sonic populace as a whole is copying a toxic playstyle, then he's going to be toxic at every level.

WD out of downB was hella toxic, though. I don't think you'll find a Sonic who won't agree that it was just too much.

 

[Shadic]

Plenty of people have said it was necessary for him to be "fun."

 

[Paradoxium]

Welcome to the project m boards.

You should be ashamed of yourself, this is all your fault. You just "had" to be good with Sonic didn't you. I hope your happy with yourself.

 

[Nazo]

Sonic is still fun.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Plenty of people have said it was necessary for him to be "fun."

He was already pretty fun. Some people were just TOO offended by the ammount of spin-based moves and just couldn't let go of it.
Marth on the other hand... must've had one heck of a fun moveset.

 

[Virum]

I think it says a lot when I quit Sonic in Project M, because he just doesn't feel the same. To the point I'm willing to give him a Knuckles/Metal Sonic/Shadow skin to dress up the fact that he's NOT the Sonic I worked so hard to become good with.

But I didn't go through with that because I just plain quit playing as him.

It's a real shame that I can't play as my favorite character in P:M because he works so drastically different.
(No super armor Usmash that racks up damage, no Side+B super armor I can combo from, the heavier gravity I can cope with because the whole game is a lot less floatier, but I still feel he's not the same character by any means).

Don't get me wrong, the new moveset is creative and all.... But that would've suited a Clone-engine character more, IMHO.

All he needed for me was more kill power... And to have certain useless attacks knock back more, or simply come out faster.
A rebalance if you will.

(Not to sound like a broken record, but although I loved what PMBR did to PT's Pokemon, the fact that I can't switch between them was also a deal-breaker, therefore, 2 mains out the window.
My 3rd main is Samus.. Guess I have to wait to see how that turns out, but I'm frankly worried)

Dude I don't know what you're talking about but Sonic never had armour on either of the moves that you're talking about (infact Sonic doesn't have armour on any of his moveset and honestly it would be super dumb if he did). He had invincibility frames on both, but no armour. And honestly of course it's not the same character. The same could be said about characters such as Wario and Lucario. Elements of the characters remain similar/the same but the characters are largely revamped to suit the new engine. Sonic in Brawl was a fairly weak character. Lack of kill power wasn't his only issue in Brawl, and even if it was transferring him to Project:M to suit the new engine and metagame would require more than just buffing his power anyway. It's a completely different game with a completely different set of characters and match-ups.

I also don't quite understand the "Clone character" comments because everything Sonic does in P:M is canon to his character. His Brawl incarnation isn't the only way to capture his character and to think it is would be extremely closed minded. A lot of people for example (myself included) were disappointed that Sonic had no Sonic Battle rep in Brawl despite the fact that it makes perfect sense to use moves from said game. Additionally, Sonic is a pretty stylish character and a character with a fair bit of attitude. He's always been like that so capturing more elements of that was key. Sonic as he is in P:M is definitely Sonic. If Sonic's P:M moveset were directly applied to someone like Knuckles or Shadow you'd objectively be misrepresenting those characters because half the stuff Sonic does in P:M those characters do not do (as well as the fact that they'd be lacking key elements of their own characters).

He was already pretty fun. Some people were just TOO offended by the ammount of spin-based moves and just couldn't let go of it.
Marth on the other hand... must've had one heck of a fun moveset.

Marth is fun for a lot of people. Don't try to be snarky. He's a staple of both the Melee and Brawl competitive metagames and a lot of people enjoy how he plays.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Dude I don't know what you're talking about but Sonic never had armour on either of the moves that you're talking about (infact Sonic doesn't have armour on any of his moveset and honestly it would be super dumb if he did). He had invincibility frames on both, but no armour. And honestly of course it's not the same character. The same could be said about characters such as Wario and Lucario. Elements of the characters remain similar/the same but the characters are largely revamped to suit the new engine. Sonic in Brawl was a fairly weak character. Lack of kill power wasn't his only issue in Brawl, and even if it was transferring him to Project:M to suit the new engine and metagame would require more than just buffing his power anyway. It's a completely different game with a completely different set of characters and match-ups.

Right.. I meant invincibility frames. (Sorry, I still can't tell the difference)
Lucario and Wario, yeah Brawl characters tend to be changed completely, but most of the Melee cast is kept almost exactly the same. Unfortunately, I just don't buy the fact that Sonic (of all Brawl characters) couldn't have worked acting exactly the same + cancels, physics, and WD.

I'm snarky (and I apologize) because the hardcore Melee players got it easy as their characters feel pretty much the same. I can't say I could count many Brawl characters that weren't almost completely altered.

I've played SSB since 1999, and I appreciate stuff like Ness feeling more like his 64 self, and C.F. handling like his Melee self, or the cool stuff I can still kinda pull of as Luigi from back then.
Just like Marth was already "fun" to some people, I too found Sonic's moveset fun. It "represented" mostly Sonic the Fighters and I got used to that.
Side+B Spincharge was a BIG part of my playstyle. (Spincharge to shield fake outs, and blocking strong projectiles with its invincibility frames) so it's obvious that I'm pissed at the change. Not to mention removing his wall jump, one of the most recurring of Sonic moves as off late.


The fixing of the Homing Attack was totally called for, on one hand.
But replacing his Fair that acted almost instantly, and replace it with a laggier Fair that spikes... That was uncalled for. Why not just make his DAIR have spike properties?

-----------

I appreciate you took your time to respond respectfully. I don't want to sound ungrateful because overall this is just a nitpick when compared with how pleasing the project is as a whole. And anyone who's seen me post in the P:M boards could testify that I've given nothing but praise for the game.
However, when I have to give my constructive feedback, (especially when talking about a character that I know like the back of my hand in any other version of SSB) I don't hold back, so I hope you'll understand.

If the PM:BR will ever bring Sonic back to what he was before (but rebalanced), then I'll be forever grateful.
If not... then I'll stick to Wario because he's so different (from Brawl, and I never mained him there) that he feels like a P:M exclusive character... and I'll simply carry over my knowledge and playstyle of Sonic into SSB4 and be happy either way.

Don't take this as complaining,, I may have not won one of those big tourneys they have over at the US, but I've come ridiculously close to winning local tourneys as Sonic. I don't expect my words to have that much weight, but I hope I'm not the only one with these issues.


P.S. Roy and Mewtwo are perfect examples of what should've been done to "bad" Brawl characters. Rebalance, and ADD stuff, not replace.

P.S.2: It's kind of funny me agreeing with the thread title, but as far as the OP goes, I stand on the complete opposite side of the fence.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Sonic is fine, you people underestimate him too quickly without giving him a chance.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Right.. I meant invincibility frames. (Sorry, I still can't tell the difference)


The fixing of the Homing Attack was totally called for, on one hand.
But replacing his Fair that acted almost instantly, and replace it with a laggier Fair that spikes... That was uncalled for. Why not just make his DAIR have spike properties?

-----------

his dair can spike at the beginning hitbox.

 

[DMG]

DABLE POAST LIEK SANIC WUD DEW

Spoiler

 

[Nazo]

The fixing of the Homing Attack was totally called for, on one hand.
But replacing his Fair that acted almost instantly, and replace it with a laggier Fair that spikes... That was uncalled for. Why not just make his DAIR have spike properties?

Uhhh, Sonic's Fair in Project M doesn't spike... it never has.

"almost instantly"? Sonic's brawl fair had an active hitbox on frame 5. It's fast, but it's not what I would call almost instant.

PM Fair is a better alternative to Sonic's brawl fair because gimping is far more crucial in PM than it is in brawl. A meteor gives Sonic more edge-guarding capabilities in this game rather than having him fish for horizontal and vertical blast zone kills, which is difficult considering the vast amount of stages we have now with such large blast zones in comparison to melee and brawl.


Also, Dair spikes, try it sometime.

 

[Solharath]

Who needs dair spikes when you can double fair. I'm still looking for that elusive Triple Fair Kill. Once I get it on stream I'm changing my name to TFK.

Also Nazo I find all our stages to be smaller, at least when it comes to ceilings. We need more vertically endowed stages, even though that hurts Sonic in my opinion.

For the most part I'm at odds with what shinhed-echi is saying here, and I hope they take none of his suggestions seriously. Sonic was bad in Brawl and drew practically nothing from his various appearances, Sonic the Fighters notwithstanding. I know he isn't alone in what he thinks, though – Espy has been very vocal about his distaste in Sonic in PM.

 

[DMG]

I don't really understand the distaste, when the character looks 80% the same as Brawl. If he's not spinning in a ball, he's probably using his limbs in a similar manner.

 

[Solharath]

I just got the mental image of Sonic spinning his limbs independent of his body at supersonic speeds.

It is glorious.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Uhhh, Sonic's Fair in Project M doesn't spike... it never has.

"almost instantly"? Sonic's brawl fair had an active hitbox on frame 5. It's fast, but it's not what I would call almost instant.

PM Fair is a better alternative to Sonic's brawl fair because gimping is far more crucial in PM than it is in brawl. A meteor gives Sonic more edge-guarding capabilities in this game rather than having him fish for horizontal and vertical blast zone kills, which is difficult considering the vast amount of stages we have now with such large blast zones in comparison to melee and brawl.


Also, Dair spikes, try it sometime.

Considering that "recovery is a luxury" in P:M, I'd say Sonic's Brawl Fair is as much of a gimp as a meteor fair.
And considering Sonic's horrendous recovery, I'd be crazy to try to dair an opponent.

Also, don't drag me into frame count.
The character feels like something else, and going into framecount mode does NOT make him feel any better.


I'm done giving feedback to this mod. Seriously, it's like a side of the smash community I should've never met. I'm losing so much respect for competitive smash when I don't feel like I have a say in the matter after getting my MAIN screwed over (but I bet if I start to complain about frames and microscopical input lag, it gets patched for the next version on the spot).

I'm done.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

If recoveries are a luxury, then a large portion of the cast in pm have that luxury. I'm sorry to hear you're dissatisfied with sonic's current design, I hope you don't give up completely on him, and at least give his 3.0 design a second chance. As for me, I recently found sonic to be a pretty fun character to use. His movement in general is very fun and satisfying.

 

[shinhed-echi]

If recoveries are a luxury, then a large portion of the cast in pm have that luxury. I'm sorry to hear you're dissatisfied with sonic's current design, I hope you don't give up completely on him, and at least give his 3.0 design a second chance. As for me, I recently found sonic to be a pretty fun character to use. His movement in general is very fun and satisfying.

Thanks, and I'll give him the chance.
The luxury part was written in quotations because some other user that didn't take my criticism kindly came up with that silly argument when I was talking about his recovery.

But anyway, thanks and I'll give him a go to see what surprises he has in store for us.

 

[Espy Rose]

DMG get out.

Also, to stay on topic: 2.6 Sonic plays like complete and utter poop.

 

[DMG]

No really though, Sonic looks roughly the same from Brawl to PM. I mean if people don't like the way he plays out now, that's acceptable. But looks wise, he's still blue spin guy.

 

[Espy Rose]

No. He does not. At all.

 

[Virum]

*snip*

I was debating replying to this, but I guess I will. The short answer is, as I mentioned before, Sonic's Brawl moveset simply is not cohesive with P:M's engine which is why just taking his Brawl moveset and buffing it is simply not an option. When you get down to it, it's as simple as that. There's no subjective discussion there. But let me go into some depth and give some examples.

The returning Melee characters' core elements worked (for the most part) with the Melee engine. Roy and Mewtwo for example, are characters that suffered from being underpowered in various ways as opposed to their core design elements being unsuitable for the engine. Sonic's Brawl moveset is quite heavily focused on cancels from his spinning attacks. Side B could be shield cancelled on start up, Down B could be shield cancelled on air to ground transition and both could be cancelled with an air dodge. These factors work in Sonic's favour within Brawl's engine as it's a more defensive game. But in Project:M, where there's a greater level of commitment to offense and the fact that it's a generally more offensive game in general, they simply do not transfer well. Do you know why? Because 2.1 and 2.5 Sonic were able to do similar stuff with said moves and it led to those moves being overly centralising and consequently elements of the character's design were stupid.

Replacing FAir is also....fair (pardon the pun, couldn't resist). I personally do miss Brawl FAir. It was one of his better moves. However P:M's FAir is definitely not objectively worse, especially since it acts as a pretty solid spacing tool (which Sonic lacks barring FTilt and maybe DTilt), its sour spot combos and chases and kills at the edge at higher %s and of course also acts as a pretty strong meteor. Not to mention the obvious canonical advantage it has over Brawl's FAir, which barely can be argued to represent a move from Sonic the Fighters which in itself is a rather obscure game that no one would even give two ****s about if it weren't for Sonic Gems Collection.

The other main reason as to why Sonic would never return back to how he was in Brawl is simply because of how P:M development has gone for him. Sonic BY FAR has been the character we've had the most issues with developing in terms of constructing a good playstyle with him. In demos 1.0, 2.0 and 2.5 there was always some kind of issue and consequently P:M Sonic mains have always been pinballing (pardon the pun...again) between the different iterations because of radical the changes have been. Going back to the Brawl design (a highly flawed design in itself), especially when we at the PMBR and a lot of other players have felt that we've nailed a sweetspot in terms of Sonic's actual design to make him play like a proper character (areas of his moveset could use improvement of course, but the core is now finally there and the areas of improvement shall hopefully have been alleviated by the time 3.0 comes round), would be met with very little positive response. PMBR have discussed Sonic more extensively than any other character so don't think we haven't thought very carefully about various elements of the character.

Also, it's rather hypocritical of you to say that you'll stick to Wario for being different but not Sonic for the same reason, especially considering that Wario is a much more prominent character in Brawl's competitive scene.


On a couple of additional notes, I have no idea where the idea of Sonic's 2.6 recovery being bad even spawned from. This is straight up wrong. Sonic's recovery is still better than the majority of the cast largely because he still has so many options with it. He can Blast Attack (indefinitely) in the air, he can spinshot and he can spring all within a single air time.

And I'm sorry to say this, but your post comes off less as constructive and more closed minded and whiny. It's clear from parts of your post that you haven't really invested much into P:M Sonic simply because he was foreign from what you were used to playing, as opposed to trying to look objectively for actual problems with the design and character and state them. Though I'm glad that you are still, for the most part, enjoying the game.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic's recovery is pretty ass.

 

[cmart]

MMMmmm I see some bait around here

 

[Nazo]

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm now completely mesmerized by whatever it is she's eating.

 

[Nazo]

Cereal. The real challenge is figuring out what kind of cereal

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Looks like corn flakes

 

[DX.Kingz]

Dude ima be straight with you. I was a Sonic main back in brawl and I hated his move set. Characters like ike and oilmar always had a good advantage on me be it there reach or protection. But you know what, even if his moves are flawed, even if his kill power is weak. You know what, I'm still gonna use him. Why?

Because he is my favorite character. I used to feel that everyone was always given an edge, that Sonic was handicapped. Than it came to me, I needed to stop blaming the character, and start blaming my own lack of skill. No fighter is perfect, but every one of them can be good with hard work and practice. My motto in brawl was, adapt or die. So if I couldn't beat ya straight on, I'll wear you down and gimp you. An I'm much stronger now because of it.

Project m is no different. except you must adapt far more often. Sure I liked 2.5 Sonic better, but even I have to admit he was a bit much. 2.6 at first I hated, it felt like I was getting handicapped all over again. But I came to the forums, I asked for some pointers, watched others, and above all I practiced! I'm no pro and I don't pretend to be. I've played since 64 but I know I'm still a long way from being able to step to the top brass. Yet there is one thing I know is certain. No one became a true pro over night. It takes work, you must learn your character and others, deal with your weakness and move past them. An I did that, now moves I never even considered are core to my game-play. Moonwalking, wavelanding, blast attack, and fair! You must keep an open mind, stop focusing on what you don't have, and start making use of all the new weapons you've been given. An guess what, unlike melee you have the whole project m team that actually will listen and try to make the character more balanced for everyone. So now you have an edge don't waste it and don't ruin it.


In retrospect dude I'm not trying to be mean or anything like that. I just want you to know I've been there before, and trust me you won't really gain anything by harping on it. Sometimes you just have to adapt when you are faced with something you don't like. Now as I said you have an edge here. I have nothing but great respect and admiration for the project m team and I am very grateful for their hard work, and how they have made my favorite character so much better. An unlike nintendo you can talk to them and they will hear you out, and do their best to help everyone. So from here on keep an open mind, give Sonic and honest try. If you find any problems that truly make him unbalanced tell everyone what you've found, see if others can help you. An last look forward to 3.0, if you do all this I guarantee you will find yourself improving over all as a player. Count on it.

 

[Espy Rose]

Can you pass me some of your cheese? You're drowning in it, and I'm getting hungry.

 

[Tero.]

Kinda feels like 09 Sanic boards again

 

[DX.Kingz]

Can you pass me some of your cheese? You're drowning in it, and I'm getting hungry.

Sure, American, cheddar, jack or party style I'm flexible. Lol forgive me I didn't mean to bore anyone, just wanted to share what helped me personally get through a slump not to long ago cheese and all. Though now that I have had my say I shall take my leave, I do not wish to bring about negative reactions or the like. I do sincerely hope I was at least of a little help as it were. Ciao

 

[Espy Rose]

Cheese is only good for one thing.
Nachos.

 

[NaijaboyIrin]

I dunno guys, I think Sonic is a cool character.
Fun isn't all about winning.