Does Falcon need something new?

[Frostyy]

It seems like Captain Falcon struggles a lot in Project M. He is pretty much exactly the same as he was in Melee, just with an improved Falcon Kick and Raptor Boost. But, is that really good enough in the new environment? Do you think that Falcon needs some new techniques to keep up with the competition brought on by buffs and new matchups with other characters?

His most apparent weakness is his recovery. Personally I'd love it if CF could wall jump out of his Up and Side B like Mario/Ike. I feel like something like that alone could drastically change the way Falcon can be played. The limited OoS options are another big thing, but I've got no ideas in regards to that.

 

[turtletank]

Short of replacing his arms with knees, Falcon is already perfect. Any more buffs would hinder rather than enhance his gameplay.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

The only reason he struggles is because falcon is surprisingly one of the most difficult characters to both play and understand and people have trouble doing good with him. Falcon is fine atm aside from needing to pass through projectiles with his side b again.

 

[SixSaw]

I also wouldn't mind seeing up-B changed in some way, only because I've always felt the move is just sort of poorly designed.

Enlightenment's right though. Falcon's fine.

 

[DMG]

Falcon is sort of fine. There were some interesting ideas I have heard tossed around though. Lower hitting Nair to catch short characters better, reduced landing lag on Upb, and a few others.

 

[mudkyp]

I also wouldn't mind seeing up-B changed in some way, only because I've always felt the move is just sort of poorly designed.

Enlightenment's right though. Falcon's fine.

He can combo a player very hard, but he has to DD camp an opponent and force them to commit to a shield or a baited move and then be VERY quick with punishment. Off the ledge, he's terrible. All you can really do is power shield all projectiles to the best of your ability and hope for a down throw or up throw opportunity. He sucks in P:M and I don't see anyone doing well with him for a very long time.

 

[0RLY]

If spacies can have no landing lag on their up-b, why not falcon? It's not like the dive is invincible like Sheik's.

 

[GeZ]

Falcon is sort of fine. There were some interesting ideas I have heard tossed around though. Lower hitting Nair to catch short characters better, reduced landing lag on Upb, and a few others.

But everyone in the Falcon forums won't shut up about changing moves completely that won't impact his game. He'd benefit from some really simple stuff, like what you mentioned, and a better downward range on his grab and jab.

 

[Sixonesix]

Invariably when they improve the former Melee low tiers, they do it in a fashion such that all their moves are good, or at least, they all have a use. Look at Link, DK, Bowser, Game & Watch. Each of them has maybe one useless or highly situational move in their entire movepool in P:M. Falcon isn't like that. Certainly all of his aerials are extremely good and really shouldn't be tweaked at all, but his ground game was never all that good. His ftilt is weak, his dodge is bad, and his smashes are slow to the point that you'll likely never hit with them or even want to attempt to use them except against spacies after a uthrow or something. His movepool is not well-rounded unlike the top characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth and the characters formerly worse than him that got buffs. Falcon is in that horrid middle ground, and that's why he's lacking in P:M right now.

 

[GeZ]

Invariably when they improve the former Melee low tiers, they do it in a fashion such that all their moves are good, or at least, they all have a use. Look at Link, DK, Bowser, Game & Watch. Each of them has maybe one useless or highly situational move in their entire movepool in P:M. Falcon isn't like that. Certainly all of his aerials are extremely good and really shouldn't be tweaked at all, but his ground game was never all that good. His ftilt is weak, his dodge is bad, and his smashes are slow to the point that you'll likely never hit with them or even want to attempt to use them except against spacies after a uthrow or something. His movepool is not well-rounded unlike the top characters like Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth and the characters formerly worse than him that got buffs. Falcon is in that horrid middle ground, and that's why he's lacking in P:M right now.

But that's wrong. I've explained this before, but I'll do it one more time, just for you. Falcon is falling off because of newer matchups being harder, and his tool set only serving him so well now. But, improving his grounded normals won't help him, barring overhaul. That's because he has, and employs, all the tools he already needs without using them. A stronger side tilt would help Falcon's spacing, but since he's not spacing centric in that sense, it wouldn't help him at all.

It's like giving Falcon a fireball. Sure, he has a fireball. Awesome. But Falcon revolves around getting in. Since the fireball doesn't assist what he revolves around, it doesn't assist him.

I've gone into detail before of explaining how each useless normal being buffed wouldn't help him, but I'm too tired right now to rewrite it. The point is, he revolves around a few specific moves. He doesn't need a better Fsmash because he's got the Knee. He doesn't need a better Utilt because he's got other moves that fill that niche. To improve Falcon, we've got to take his good tools (jab, grab, aerials) and make them more able to combat the fighters he currently has trouble with. The only general change that Falcon really needs, not including changes to the aforementioned moves, it would be improving his tech roll.

 

[yohoos]

Not sure if fireball example is the best unless you mean luigi's fireball because Falcon with Mario's fireball would be SO good with all that extra stage presence in neutral. Also any buff that can help Falcon get easy knock downs and tech chase opportunities I feel would be beneficial to his neutral/punish game whether that be buffed tilts or specials or whatever.

 

[GeZ]

Not sure if fireball example is the best unless you mean luigi's fireball because Falcon with Mario's fireball would be SO good with all that extra stage presence in neutral. Also any buff that can help Falcon get easy knock downs and tech chase opportunities I feel would be beneficial to his neutral/punish game whether that be buffed tilts or specials or whatever.

I'm saying fireball as in the traditional fighting game sense, though I guess you could say I mean something similar to Samus's missile? Something that can't be followed up in any case. And changing his grounded normals wouldn't get him an easier knockdown since all of his knockdowns come from his conventional tools.

 

[Bazkip]

I posted this in the Ganon subforum, but it applies to Falcon as well

I find it frustrating and illogical when I grab someone at low damage with Ganon's up B while recovering, and after releasing them they still have plenty of time to be able to attempt to gimp me again. Getting that grab should give you a better chance of recovering, not an easier opportunity for your opponent to get a kill. I see two feasible solutions to this. One is to simply increase the base knockback of the move while decreasing the knockback growth (for balance). This would get lower damage opponents out of the way for a bit longer, and higher damage enemies would still get knocked back far enough as well. The other possibility could be that it refreshes your second jump, considering that landing it will generally push you away from the stage.

I also thought it might be neat if you could change your position while in the grab, so you could instead knock your opponent away from the stage and push yourself towards it if that wasn't the initial position. That'd likely be far too powerful though.

Thoughts?

 

[GeZ]

I posted this in the Ganon subforum, but it applies to Falcon as well

Just aim so that you sweet spot the ledge. If you do land the grab at that height it'll stage spike them, if you don't you recover.

 

[yohoos]

I posted this in the Ganon subforum, but it applies to Falcon as well

I think the change position thing is interesting and I would love to see how that plays out. But I see your point on the flaws of UpB and I agree. Although that situation does not occur too often, it honestly shouldn't happen at all. It's kind of like Falcon's original aerial side B lag, which still honestly sucks but is slightly better than before so you can't get punished for hitting someone with it.

Just aim so that you sweet spot the ledge. If you do land the grab at that height it'll stage spike them, if you don't you recover.

Sweet spotting the ledge is pretty standard for every character. And the stage spike is very gimmicky and generally won't work at all since it's easy to wall tech due to the pause before the explosion (unless you are on certain stages with overhangs like battlefield). Afterwards, the opponent gets back their second jump (I believe) while Falcon/Ganon is stuck with only their sub-par recoveries leading to an even worse situation.

 

[GeZ]

But if you aim right and don't poke yourself above the ledge they have to really dive to get you. It's not as edgeguardable as you say.

 

[-Fatality-]

A lower hitting Nair and Jab are the only non-universal changes that would really help Falcon, barring some new, completely ridiculous thing. I honestly don't think Falcon's badly positioned at all, PM Falcon's matchup spread sans a few characters is pretty solid. Falcon Mains just have to step it up!

 

[Warhawk]

Just aim so that you sweet spot the ledge. If you do land the grab at that height it'll stage spike them, if you don't you recover.

I don't play Falcon much in this game, but if this situation is like how it is in melee you can meteor cancel or ledgetech an opponent's edgeguard attempt and hit them with your up-b and if your opponent is at a low percent they then get a second, free edgeguard that will likely kill you. Just going for sweetspots will not completely avoid the issue. The situation typically results from your opponent making a mistake and REWARDS them for it. It makes no sense and if it can be amended reasonably it probably should be. Its not a high percent situation, so I'm not trying to stress like its top priority, but it is really dumb and does come up even in high level play.

 

[GeZ]

It's better than it is in Melee, and Falcon not having a super stellar recovery isn't really an issue considering the rest of the character.

 

[yohoos]

It's not making his recovery any better it's just making his recovery less bad in that situation.

 

[-Fatality-]

Up-B over them onto the stage, DI into the ground and tech whatever they hit you with, your now back on stage, and ready to continue the rumble! Sure, you can still get grabbed, but it's usually less painful than them getting a free aerial on you at the edge. Seeing as they probably wouldn't expect that, their punish will likely be pretty sub-optimal.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

• A lower reaching nair, jab, and grab (possibly a small buff in horizontal grab range as well?)
  
• Smash64 up smash (maaaaaybe 64 f-smash, too?). Gives Falcon a powerful option immediately OoS.
  
• Up-b animation and hitbox similar to Ganon's Dark Dive, so his feet aren't sticking out like a ****** and he has a way of fending off edgeguarders.
  
• Better tilts? (I think at this point, you're asking for too much, but w/e)

Give all of these things to Falcon and he'll be the best character in the game, imo.

 

[Drigonaut]

How about a better moonwalk? Best I can do is moonwalk back to my original position before falcon turns around. In melee I'm pretty sure it can go 1 radian forward and then 2 radians in reverse afterwards. And I'd like to agree with a better f-tilt for a little bit more reach. As a Ganon main, id want all the tilts to have a little more knock back/hitstun but that would be a little much.

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

How about a better moonwalk? Best I can do is moonwalk back to my original position before falcon turns around. In melee I'm pretty sure it can go 1 radian forward and then 2 radians in reverse afterwards. And I'd like to agree with a better f-tilt for a little bit more reach. As a Ganon main, id want all the tilts to have a little more knock back/hitstun but that would be a little much.

Moonwalking is hella easy in P:M compared to Melee and it still goes out really far. You must moonwalk in a way that makes it difficult for no reason at all. However, I'm just assuming things, so don't get mad at me :x

 

[Deleted member]

I just want his N64 Falcon Punch.

Sacred combos everywhere...

 

[Da-bomber]

So is his raptor boost through projectiles coming or is that a technical problem right now.

 

[-Fatality-]

It's probably not coming, as if it were, I don't see why that would be a technical problem to the highly accomplished PM team, who've pulled off far more complex things with character moves. That would be EXTREMELY appreciated though.

 

[CORY]

• Up-b animation and hitbox similar to Ganon's Dark Dive, so his feet aren't sticking out like a ****** and he has a way of fending off edgeguarders.

just feel the need to say that ganon's dark dive isn't that much better. he's still SUPER easy to hit out of it, since his arm sticks way up the way it does. they didn't improve his "sweet spot-ability" much at all, so his arm pretty much sticks up past the stage outside of silly maneuvering tricks : /

 

[TheKmanOfSmash]

just feel the need to say that ganon's dark dive isn't that much better. he's still SUPER easy to hit out of it, since his arm sticks way up the way it does. they didn't improve his "sweet spot-ability" much at all, so his arm pretty much sticks up past the stage outside of silly maneuvering tricks : /

But Ganon's arm has the hitbox from Brawl, whereas Falcon is just a sitting duck when his feet go above the stage after the flip. If you Up-b the stage correctly as Ganon, it's a bit more difficult to edgeguard him because of that hitbox. I'm just asking something similar to that for Falcon.

 

[Da-bomber]

Has falcon kick canceling, safe after aerial raptor boost, or falcon punch canceling with armor(for projectiles I guess) ever crossed the pmbr minds? How would this change him? The last one does seem extremely op'd so maybe no armor.

 

[Lucienta Angelus Anarkiel]

How about a chargeable Falcon Punch? I think it would make a drastic buff for C. Falcon!

 

[Da-bomber]

Can pmbr adjust the amount of stun an individual move does? Add electrical element to jab knee combo like from balanced brawl?

 

[-Fatality-]

In summary, Falcon would greatly benefit from the following, none of which are ridiculous, or unrealistic in any way.
Lower hitboxes for Nair, Jab, and Grab.
Being able to Raptor boost through weak projectiles (having weak superarmor is probably asking too much).

Anything else would just be gravy.

 

[Da-bomber]

Slightly OT: Was playing pm and then played adventure mode in melee. Is brawl falcon bigger in size than melee falcon?

 

[2-Toes]

A fun idea is bringing back the Smash 64 Up-B physics. Slightly faster start up and momentum (would help his recovery), and most importantly could be a risky but satisfying combo finisher for when the knee is just out of reach.

Here is a good example of it in action:

http://youtu.be/fp3SUG2Mp2g?t=1m17s

Notice the way it sends the opponent vertically. The risk lies in not connecting the move, exhausting your recovery, and losing the stock. It's a relatively minor tweak, but it would fit his style and address the problem of recovery. It's almost silly how much lag Falcon's Up-B has when it lands on the stage compared to 64.

Also, having at least ONE practical smash attack that won't get punished hard, and all the aforementioned ideas of lowering hitboxes so that short characters aren't such pests, are all great ideas.

 

[Da-bomber]

Pretty sure the 64 up smash is the only smash for falcon that can't really be punished that badly.

 

[Sleepy]

Does anyone else feel like he runs slower and his mobility in general is a little more gimped in PM?

 

[-Fatality-]

Not at all, He feels like an even more fluid (thank you PMBR), just as fast Captain as the one I loved from Melee. Maybe you're controller/tv is a little off?

 

[Sleepy]

doubt it, maybe I'm just associating the soundeffects/gui to brawl, and accusing the game of being slower based on engine.

 

[-Fatality-]

The engine has been fixed so that PM Falcon is literally just as fast as Melee Falcon, you can consult the PMBR on it if you'd like.