Does Falcon need something new?

[yohoos]

Another random idea I'm throwing out there for Falcon Punch. Make it similar to Ike's SideB?

Edit: Also a slight increase in the hitboxes in some of his moves because atm his priority is garbage compared to most other characters

 

[Nephiros]

Aerial falcon kick ledge cancels like Ganon would be real swag.

The ability to turnaround after landing a up-b would be neat, similar to how he can turnaround Falcon Punch.

Like many have said already, slightly more low reach on his grab and maybe just a nudge horizontally, too. I'm not sure how big his actual range on it is and I know it has a lot to do with his movement speed, but I recall whiffing grabs on a few occasions that were just silly. Like while standing right next to my opponent and whiffing because they're doing a move in the other direction which angles them forward.

 

[yohoos]

Falcon's grab is notoriously bad for how much he depends on it. It's only usable because of this movement speed. In fact, now that I think about it, everything Falcon has is pretty much trash by itself but becomes usable due to his great movements. It's kind of cool actually.

 

[CBO0tz]

I've said it before, C. Falcon needs his 64 moveset reintroduced to PM. His combo game in that game was apparently amazing, and he was in his prime in that game. Yet it seems as though the PMBR is even listening.(Prove me wrong somebody)

Let's go over what it was that made him powerful and amazing, and what could be done to make his old moves more applicable in PM.

The 64 Nair sex kick seems like it would be more useful than his current PM Nair, maybe with a lower hitbox too.
The F-Smash in 64 was a flaming kick, I imagine it would have more range, faster startup and ending lag than the F-Smash Elbow.
64 U-Smash uppercut because superior startup, better combo potential, etc.
The Falcon Punch in 64 was apparently way faster than any current Falcon Punch, I think that's necessary, given its ****tyness at the moment.
The Falcon Dive should definitely be as powerful as it was in 64, it actually killed people when you hugged them. And make it able to be turned around mid-hug.
The Falcon Kick should be able to jump out of Ganon-style, like others have suggested.

All of this, plus the fact that many of his old moves were disjointed hitboxes, would definitely put C. Falcon way higher in the tier list, and the moves I just talked about weren't even talking about the damage output!

 

[-Scorp-]

I had noticed that the hit of the raptor boost (im speaking of the uppercut motion and the.... downercut motion?!*&?% air RB) could be reaaaallllllly wayyyyy faster


wayyyyyyy fasssterrrrrrrrrrrrr

wayyyyy... ffffff..

Also as everyone says, his nair is nothing compaired to melee (might be just the feeling or because of the roaster but im not as confident as in melee with it...) create bad matchup with mart, link, pichu......

 

[MrButterFuzz]

I agree with a mario/ike recovery, jumping off the walls from up or side b.

But lets look at his useless move, his neutral b.
Total: 99 frames
Hit: 52-56

More flashy but more punishable then the knee.

How about making his neutral b like ikes neutral b where you can charge it and release it between such and such frames. ya know. less charge = minimum knockback/damage and full charge = full knockback/ damage but still keep the full amimation of a falcon punch.


I look at it as you can always up-air > up-air > knee. But why not make it more flashier? up-air>up-air> minimum falcon punch.

Just my opinion of a useless move.

 

[Captain Birdman]

Going through these forums I've seen a number of great ideas for improving Falcon that revolve around his smashes, tilts, and recovery. I'd love to see any of these improved just so he could have more options.

- Captain Falcon's 64 Usmash would give him a great OoS option (new combo starter?) which would mean he doesn't have to rely so strongly on a dair or throw to start combos, and is by far my most desired smash for him.

- As for his tilts, all of them have a slow start up time (compared to other characters, anyways), do not combo well, and can be difficult to follow unless at specific percentages. I would be okay if even a single one of these tilts became usable. The only time I ever see them is when a Falcon messes up a SHFFL by using a tilt and loses the combo.

- Finally, his dreadful recovery, there are a number of things that could be improved. First of all, when Falcon lands his Up-B while trying to survive, it pushes him back and the opponent back to the stage, basically resetting their edge guard unless they're at a super high percentage. A feature where you can easily be punished for actually landing your Up-B attack is ridiculous.
- When you have characters that punish you for punishing their Up-B (Diddy), who can attack out of it (Mewtwo, G&W), are granted wall-jump options (Mario, Ike), have invincibility frames (sheik), directional options (Spacies), tethers, or are given constant hit boxes (DK, Link), I feel it's pretty lame that Falcon (and I suppose Ganon as well) suffer from their predictable, low priority recoveries.
- Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you can now sweet-spot the ledge with his Up-B and his Side-B, but compared to the rest of the cast, that's basically standard. When your only real options are to sweet spot or land on the stage (and get punished for bad landing lag), something should be done about it. The only thing I like about Falcon's recovery is the fact that every once in a while your opponent might forget your Side-B exists and get hit for it.

Anyways, I'm sure most (if not all) of these ideas/wishes have been posted in this forum somewhere, but giving Falcon any of these would make him a LOT better imo.

- Regarding his ariels, I think they're perfectly fine. Since SHFFL'ing is his primary strategy, it's always worked well for those who can handle the speed he works at. Nair's double helps keep combos alive, Uair tosses opponents around the stage and has good range, Bair is quick and has decent knock-back, the Fair is basically his best move ever and Dair is a great combo starter. In fact, the ariels are the only thing I would like to be left alone (and maybe the mighty Falcon Punch).

TL;DR
- I want Falcon to have moves that he can actually show (hehe) that isn't just SHFFL'ing and won't always get him punished.

 

[Rᴏb]

If I were to change Falcon, I'd give him a 64-esque up smash and forward smash, and change his ledgegrab hitbox so that he can't grab the ledge backwards out of upb any more.

I enjoy how Falcon plays now, but I think he pales in comparison to many of the characters in PM to the point where I think he is barely mid-tier. Giving him a good OoS option like his 64 up smash would really compliment his punish game. A 64 forward smash wouldn't help him too much, but it would give him a straight up range buff to a very read-based move.

I don't think Falcon's neutral game should be touched, and getting rid of his reverse ledgegrab would definitely hurt his recovery, but that's the kind of direction I think recoveries in this game should go in general.

 

[Drigonaut]

After playing falcon for a longer period of time now, I've concluded that the ONLY things he really needs, are A) better players, B) faster techrolls, C) that's it.
I've started using JC'd-grabs more often and it's helped out my gameplay unbelievably.

 

[Booster]

Chargeable Falcon Punch (Cannot be stored)

You can press b instantly and unleash a quick but ****ty Falcon Punch
You can release be in the middle and unleash a regular Falcon Punch

If you let it charge completely and it hits the target it should have the same effect as Home Run bat, but add additional Fire Damage and make Falcon say "YES" if it hits. To make it more badass, have the audience cheer for Captain Falcon if it hits.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Falcon's down-b should function a bit more like Ganon's. I'm not talking about hitboxes or KB, but about recovery. It is not as reliable as the Wiz Kick for getting back to the ledge.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

Buff ANYTHING and I would be happy

 

[-Scorp-]

- truthfully if raptor boost connect, it really need to get out faster than fox shine of nair, or link nair or freaking everybody Nair !!! it connect ! it shoud be rewarding (im speaking of the uppercut motion)
- raptor boost neeeeed to pass over projectile PLEAASSSEEEE, I event doesnt know why its not done since the fist version of PM
falcon is really pitifull against projectile player
- Usmash, is really not EVER usefull
- reduced startup on jump (or it might be something else but .. there is definitely something wrong with it
- Dtilt might came out faster
- Uair need reduced hit lag (cause now you need two timing for l-cancel one on hit and another one on whiff sense less i think)
- falcon wall tech, too slow
- falcon ledge grab animation lag reduced for better manoeuvrability
- The knee need reduced hit lag totally for the same reason
- gentle knee need.... something more, lol, i know something is not good with it
- Nair first kick might need to came out faster to counter projectile faster
- Dair is not as safe as in melee
- falcon dont need better player, I have seen lots of falcon player's tech skill completely freaking awesome, with good mind game that are limited by there character and some other player just dont play with the same amount of energie and crush falcon juste because of the MU, falcon need something, not too big but a slight buff, might be something against character who fight with weapon and constantly pass trough falcon nair

 

[Pizza Day]

PMBR should give falcon the mario/ike treatment with recovery. Make it so that he can wall jump out of side-b or/and up-b. I think recovery is the only thing you can change on falcon without making him too different from the way he plays in melee, or too broken. I'd argue falcon has the worst recovery in the game, but Roy, Ganon, and Yoshi still exist. But, in the new P:M update, they're dealing with the recovery issues, so I don't think falcon is going to get his recovery buffed.

 

[GeZ]

I don't see that recovery buff especially since many characters with recoveries that are too good, like Mario, are getting recovery nerfs next update, which is for the better.

 

[Pizza Day]

I don't see that recovery buff especially since many characters with recoveries that are too good, like Mario, are getting recovery nerfs next update, which is for the better.

I agree, if it happened to falcon, I have no doubt he'd be one of the best characters in P:M. At least top 15. But, it would have been a well deserved buff. He's the Captain. If any character deserves to be the best, it's the Captain.

 

[-Fatality-]

I don't think Falcon needs anything honestly, other than for the top characters in this game to not be so ridiculous. <_<
He's completely fine in a vacuum imo.

 

[Scaremonger]

I also agree that Falcon is a great character in a vacuum.

If I were to change something about him, 64 upsmash would be nice, or even just a better backthrow. Both of those would make him less terrible when he's cornered. I feel hesitant to change that, though, because Falcon is such an offensively centered character that giving him better defensive options wouldn't stay true to his character. Better techrolls falls into the same vein as this, although those aren't even something I'd consider.

Some of the things I've seen here are weird though. Like making raptor boost go through projectiles, even though Falcon is amazing at dealing with projectiles. In general, I really hope the PMBR stops buffing special moves and pays more attention to physics attributes and normals. Tons of amazing special moves and stuff like that is what makes PM's metagame so centered around matchup knowledge. Giving Falcon things like a chargeable Falcon punch will do literally nothing to help his character and just add one more random function to the game.

 

[Emg3]

what if on the first few frames of up b after connecting if you held down, captain falcon would RKO his opponent to the ground rather then exploding in their face

 

[Ravio_Yo]

What if Falcon could float


and pressing B during float made him instantly Falcon Punch and the Falcon Punch is enormous and destroys everything.



Would suck against characters with reflectors though

 

[Blazing Ambition]

I just want him to be able to grab short characters. And MAYBE give Up-angled F-tilt a slightly higher angle so Stomp -> F-tilt -> U-air can be a thing. Falcon's still pretty sexy though.

 

[eskimoparade]

i just want that flip gone at the end of the up b, some characters can just hit him from the stage while he is flipping even on a sweetspot

 

[BananaBolts]

i just want that flip gone at the end of the up b, some characters can just hit him from the stage while he is flipping even on a sweetspot

That's why you have to master the reverse ledge grab for up-b. Falcon's feet aren't nearly as susceptible to getting hit that way. It isn't always the optimal way to recover but it's pretty good... occasionally.

 

[Mister Falcon]

That's why you have to master the reverse ledge grab for up-b. Falcon's feet aren't nearly as susceptible to getting hit that way. It isn't always the optimal way to recover but it's pretty good... occasionally.

Reverse Ledge Grab? how do you do this?

 

[Scaremonger]

Reverse Ledge Grab? how do you do this?

Face away from the ledge and up+b.

 

[Equal]

Yo Falcon has had a gun strapped to his leg for like 15 years now and I have no idea how good it is. Apparently too good. They should give him a projectile (even if it's ****ty, it's a PROJECTILE ON THE 2ND FASTEST CHARACTER LOL) and make A+B his Falcon Punch.

Oh and make his tech rolls really fast. Then he'll be top tier.

 

[Mister Falcon]

Face away from the ledge and up+b.

Off stage? So as falcon you should always recover facing away from the ledge when you sweet spot?

 

[DMG]

Off stage? So as falcon you should always recover facing away from the ledge when you sweet spot?

No. The reverse/backwards Upb tends to kill your horizontal momentum, so you need to be fairly close to the edge to successfully use it anyways. It's a neat option, but it's not always possible to do it, so focus on mastering normal Upb Mixups and regular sweetspotting.

You will be forced to normally sweetspot, or mixup an Upb attempt to land onstage, WAY more often than you will need to reverse Upb. So don't worry about it too much.


Also, I'm fairly sure they buffed Falcon's regular Upb grab box or animation awhile ago to be less vulnerable than Melee. 2.6 or 3.0 iirc was the one to do it?

 

[RevengeOfTheStyle]

Falcon feels like a perfect accident. The stomps and knees are the reasons I've been playing him. I think he's fine the way he is.

 

[eskimoparade]

making make his running dash scoop crouchers like marths does

 

[DMG]

making make his running dash scoop crouchers like marths does

He legit got this in 3.5, that was one of his buffs. Pls go look! It's glorious

 

[G13_Flux]

- truthfully if raptor boost connect, it really need to get out faster than fox shine of nair, or link nair or freaking everybody Nair !!! it connect ! it shoud be rewarding (im speaking of the uppercut motion)
- raptor boost neeeeed to pass over projectile PLEAASSSEEEE, I event doesnt know why its not done since the fist version of PM
falcon is really pitifull against projectile player
- Usmash, is really not EVER usefull
- reduced startup on jump (or it might be something else but .. there is definitely something wrong with it
- Dtilt might came out faster
- Uair need reduced hit lag (cause now you need two timing for l-cancel one on hit and another one on whiff sense less i think)
- falcon wall tech, too slow
- falcon ledge grab animation lag reduced for better manoeuvrability
- The knee need reduced hit lag totally for the same reason
- gentle knee need.... something more, lol, i know something is not good with it
- Nair first kick might need to came out faster to counter projectile faster
- Dair is not as safe as in melee
- falcon dont need better player, I have seen lots of falcon player's tech skill completely freaking awesome, with good mind game that are limited by there character and some other player just dont play with the same amount of energie and crush falcon juste because of the MU, falcon need something, not too big but a slight buff, might be something against character who fight with weapon and constantly pass trough falcon nair

no offense, but all of this just seems like a boat load of information saying that you dont know how to play the character. i mean really, the thing about the uair needing reduced hitlag so theres only one l cancel timing? come on, every single character has to deal with that.. thats part of the beauty in gaining tech skill.

reduced start up on jump? the only thing that will accomplish is angering true falcon mains since they have to change the timing for wavedashes. his jumpsquat is 4 frames as is, what will 1 frame do for falcon?

his wall tech is too.. slow? ...what? pretty sure the timings for all characters is the same. even if it wasnt, how would it help?

nair is already great at getting through projectiles. tell any peach player that it isnt and they will laugh (youre talking to a peach player btw).

the soft knee can combo into the strong knee, and can gimp. it doesnt need anything.

dair is exactly the same in melee also, idk where you get that info from.

like i said, i dont mean to come across as a di**, but really, you should try learning more about the character before saying things like this. you have the second fastest and most mobile character in the game with some of the most absolutely reliable kill combos, approach options to deal with projectiles, stay safe against shielders, stay safe against CCers, and aerials that can literaly dominate air space. sure his recovery is sub par and he gets comboed hard. comes with the package. falcon doesnt need anything, hes good as is.

 

[Onisser]

I feel like 3.5 Falcon feels just like Melee Falcon. If anything, he's better because of Raptor Boost being able to grab ledge. I don't think that Falcon needs anything new.

 

[Nwordtim]

No bro, buffing the falcon would be a disgrace and dishonorable. First of all he's pretty much melee falcon, and that only falcon I'll ever need. Seriously I've played 64 for a good period of time and trust me that falcon still has his problem, like the ****y up - b and getting edge guard by everyone and there mothers. Beside seriously, I actually like playing a lower tier character for once, it give it that lure that I'm actually working for my combos or something. Sure just have to knee like 2 more times extra times to get that stock or now I have to actually time my wall jumps instead of hurr durffing them. Idk that just me, but what ever they are just going to patch this game to hell anyways.

 

[WaffleDinosaur]

With the new 3.5 changes I think falcon is perfect where he is now.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

I think giving him a tab of super armor on some moves wouldn't hurt. The main problem I see C. Falcon having currently is a very easily edge guard-able recovery. Giving him super armor on that, and maybe some other moves I think would make him stand up to certain characters like fox who could just shine him while he was recovering the kill him.

 

[Luno896]

falcon doesn't really need anything, he has the speed, priority, and strength to be a great character how he is now. the last thing he needs is bad design BS like super armor. Maybe raptor boost being able to duck projectiles for part of its animation (like rolls in KOF) would be a cool change, but I feel like where he is now he has the tools to deal with almost anyone. The reason he's considered as bad as he is in melee is because he has bad matchups against the higher tiers, but in PM he's versatile enough to beat most characters.

 

[ForgottenLabRat]

The only reason I wanted the super armor, was really just for his recovery. I switched to fox in 3.5 and it is really easy to drop down and shine spike him because he has no real protection, and a fairly linear recovery.

 

[Luno896]

The only reason I wanted the super armor, was really just for his recovery. I switched to fox in 3.5 and it is really easy to drop down and shine spike him because he has no real protection, and a fairly linear recovery.

that's the point. he has punishable recovery, which balances out the rest of his incredible strengths. Taking the ness approach where you have an incredible air game, great ground moves, some of the best projectiles in the game, ridiculous edgeguarding, and nearly unpunishable recovery is not good design at all. characters need flaws.

 

[Thor]

that's the point. he has punishable recovery, which balances out the rest of his incredible strengths. Taking the ness approach where you have an incredible air game, great ground moves, some of the best projectiles in the game, ridiculous edgeguarding, and nearly unpunishable recovery is not good design at all. characters need flaws.

The problem is, his strengths aren't actually that incredible when viewed against certain characters...

Fast? Oh look, Sheik, Marth, and Fox are too?

Aerial KO moves? Sheik and Falco have those too.

Good neutral game? Sheik, Falco, Fox, and Marth outclass him there.

Basically, pit him against a Melee top tier and he loses, exactly the same as Melee [in fact, vs Fox he is outclassed in neutral, probably about the same in punish and recovery, and his aerial KO moves are matched by Fox's grounded one and shine - but I don't think he wins any aspect of that MU except manliness and maybe combo game [but Fox waveshine is kinda the best combo...]]. I think this is the problem with Falcon - sure, he can do cool things to new cast members, and because a lot of new cast members (and old ones) aren't spacies, they lose to him or are even (Link still loses, but not as badly, I think Ike MU is at least close, etc.), but pit him against MUs that were bad in Melee, and, well, they still suck.

There are all kinds of cool ideas, some stupid, some not, that could improve him - while I frankly think 0RLY's suggestion of zero landing lag is dumb, I'd love to see it reduced to maybe 20 frames (ala Diddy Kong) since he has good airspeed [and spacies having only default landing lag and not extra landing lag I also find dumb, but whatever].

Spoiler: Other awesome but mostly impractical ideas

- Raptor Boost is immune to projectiles [would help vs Falco and Sheik, but would destroy some like Link, Lucario, Pit, etc. that he already probably beats or has close MUs with]
- Raptor Boost has light armor [still takes damage, can't armor through Link's strong rang or huge Lucario aura spheres, but gets him through Falco lasers and Sheik needles... but it would also get him through some jabs, which is silly in its own way]
- Raptor Boost is unCCable at all percents (aka Falcon's shine)
- Raptor Boost has a once-per-airtime walljump cancel (that also disables Falcon's ability to walljump until landing/grabbing edge/dying). Now he can recover better
- Tapping B after using Raptor Boost triggers the uppercut manually, still triggers automatically if in range (if can bounce in midair regardless of hit, recovery buff and reduces endlag on the move substantially, but still reduces endlag in any case)
- Up+B has a body hitbox on the flip (have to time edgehogs even better, risk of stage spike even if he's too low to grab you)
- Up+B buffed to 64 power (can finish those combos where they're out of range for the knee with even more style)
- Can grab crouching characters like Fox can (this one actually would probably be okayish, though Kirby/Puff players would doubtless hate it)
- Dtilt somehow more useful [faster? stronger? dunno, but it would help vs characters that crouch frequently, and unlike buffing the other moves that aren't usually used it would make a difference in a few specific MUs as needed]
- Usmash becomes 64 usmash (this one is dumb because of "usmash -> knee"... but even as someone who eats knees for days, this would be awesome nonetheless, since it would look cool, give him a sweet OoS, and... well... usmash -> knee)
- Jab1 hits crouchers [was mentioned earlier]
- Jab1 is a meteor smash [breaking CCs, probably almost true-comboing into grab if it doesn't outright... dumb for a variety of reasons]
- Falcon Punch changed to 64 Falcon Punch (possibly reliable sacred combos???)

The truly stupid idea I would be against is dair reverted to 64 dair (that would be outright stupid for a variety of reasons). There are of course other stupid ideas like this (Brawl Minus Falcon Kick would be obscene in this game, for instance), but again, I don't think those changes would be remotely fair and omit them here. I also think he would need at most 2 or 3 of these buffs, not all of them of course [and even one may very well be sufficient, like the usmash change on its own would be enough].

I will also go on the record and state that I rather dislike that we have characters designed such that buffing their useless moves is either redundant or breaks them - it may be what Falcon's design is, and it may be a balance thing, but the best characters still have fully useable movesets while having some of the most broken tools of all [see Falco], so seeing that used as an excuse for Falcon's ftilt (or Link's ftilt, or various other moves) just feels kind of silly.

Also another topic but Ness recovery sucks, PK Flash does exactly one thing [or two in teams], and PK Fire is meh (Falcon's modus operandi is enough to get him around it easily).