Do you think the new L-cancel is stupid?

[RapeFalcon]

maybe this is why everyone is floaty

 

[Red Exodus]

New L-cancel?

Do you mean less lag naturally or is there a way to cancel lag like in Melee? Either way it's just making Brawl easier. From a competitive standpoint I hate the way Brawl is going and if I didn't already plan to not play competitively in Brawl I'd be pretty angry.

 

[Mama]

Yes theres a new way to L-cancel. And I don't think its any less skillfull I just think its different. Casuals will have just as hard a time accepting/learning this way of L-canceling same as in Melee simply becuase a lot think that if something gives you an edge its not fair/fun/right.

Imo I like how it is now. Curious to see the other new things Brawl has in store. And tell your brother Mama said grow up.

 

[BigRick]

From the way this sounds, aerials with plenty of start up will be unSHFFLable

 

[RedMage8BT]

****, SHFFL was always useful, but as long as it balances the game, I like it.

 

[Irow]

Well that's the thing. SHFFL was better for some characters than others. I think this new way of L-Canceling is a way to balance the scales.

I really think this game will be deeper because if the characters are more balanced, then it will be more dependent on who can play smarter.

 

[BigRick]

Well that's the thing. SHFFL was better for some characters than others. I think this new way of L-Canceling is a way to balance the scales.

I really think this game will be deeper because if the characters are more balanced, then it will be more dependent on who can play smarter.

how does this version of shhfl gives more balance?

 

[RedMage8BT]

I said that if it does add balance, then I'm okay with it. Otherwise, it's pretty disappointing.

 

[Irow]

Well think about it, with this new style of L-cancel it will be much harder to use a move like a sex kick as a super-high priority battering ram. Or a move like the knee is much harder now. It gives people with bad SHFFL moves in the last game a bigger chance to fight back.

 

[omniscience]

shut up with its a "new game"

brawl is the 3rd game of a SERIES

you people just cry when anybody complains about no wave dash or l cancel. im sorry i have to diss nintendo. But, they messed up. I'm dissapointed. I haven't played Brawl yet, however L-cancel and wavedash is what seperated me from begginer and intermediate players in melee. In order make up for a loss of techniques, nintendo will have to impliment new ones with equal advantages. Turns out. they didnt do this. They acually made playing easier. (like automatic edge grabs.)

So congratulation to Nintendo for a great game for kids of all ages. Now when tekken players or Halo players call this game simple. I will agree. I will offer them a match, and they will put up a decent fight and prove their point. Because it takes literally seconds to memorize the controls.

So overall, im dissapointed. Online wont be as fun because of lack of expert moves, nor will playing with your friends. Being able to play new characters will only entertain be for a month. But ill get fed up.

I PREDICT MELEE WILL BE A BETTER GAME. GAMEPLAY > BONUS FEATURES/NEW CHARS

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

But, they messed up. I'm dissapointed. I haven't played Brawl yet, however L-cancel and wavedash is what seperated me from begginer and intermediate players in melee.

Well, that's not much then.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I haven't played Brawl yet, however L-cancel and wavedash is what seperated me from begginer and intermediate players in melee.

And my feelings on the matter are...

Well, that's not much then.

Ding! And that's a wrap, folks.

Smooth Criminal

 

[omniscience]

wd fwd smash, wd back smash, wd fwd jab, wd back jab, wd fwd back smash, wd back fwd smash, wd fwd grab, wd fwd crouch down tilt. wd back to edge. edge dash. counter a on edge by wd back then foward smash.
not much? i could go on forever. taking out wave dash, takes out a prolific amount of strategem.

As for L cancel. Taking that out was just so this could be a childs game and everyone could play for fun without losing to badly.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

This new form of L-canceling removes A LOT of SHFFLing options. SHFFLing is ****ed now. I don't think this game will be as strong competitively as Melee...

wd fwd smash, wd back smash, wd fwd jab, wd back jab, wd fwd back smash, wd back fwd smash, wd fwd grab, wd fwd crouch down tilt. wd back to edge. edge dash. counter a on edge by wd back then foward smash.
not much? i could go on forever. taking out wave dash, takes out a prolific amount of strategem.

QFT.

 

[omniscience]

wtf is QFT? why dont you QFT.

you complain about shuffle, i complain about l cancel and wave dash.
same concept.

**** you, even tho i agree with melee will be more competitive.

 

[ScaryMunky]

At the moment I too am discouraged with the fact that l-cancelling has undergone this change. This is due to the fact that I'm comparing the new idea of this with characters from Melee, such as Captain Falcon (short hop -> fast fall -> aerial = impossible w/ Falcon in Melee), and I have yet to play Brawl. Therefore I won't be making any ignorant outbursts concerning the matter.

I'll just wait until I can try it for myself, and hope that there is no big reason for me to be fretting, though as I said, right now, the thought is disheartening.


EDIT: To the post above me, chill dude. QFT = Quoted for Truth. It means he was agreeing with you.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

LMAO! Yeah dude I was completely agreeing with you. I'm not mad, it's just a misunderstanding. lol

EDIT: I'm just gonna take a wild guess and say he thought it meant "Quit ****ing Talking" XD

 

[omniscience]

oh i though it meant quit ****ing talking. LOL

 

[Endless Nightmares]

yay I was right! XD

too good

 

[Team Giza]

The change is better IMO. It makes it so only in some situations it would be impossible to L-cancel. Makes the game more about knowing what to do and when its safe to do it then the old way of L-canceling which was just pressing a button.

 

[ScaryMunky]

The "old" L-Cancelling takes more skill than people are saying. Yes it was "just pressing a button", but it required precise timing and with rapid SHFFL'ing could be quite difficult to pull off consistently. Aside from this fact, l-cancelling has remained constant since SSB64 (with the exception that in SSB64 all lag was cancelled), and now it's been altered. Altered to such a degree that, as 56k put it, SHFFLing is ****ed.

Ah well, what can you do? Besides whine and rant of course. Ugh.

 

[omniscience]

actually, melee makes the game more about knowing what to do and when its safe to do it IN ADDITION,

to the option of having an advanced technique in which you can shuffle, cut lag, add to a combo.

which indirectly effects the game in the way that

one can assume melee makes the game about knowing what you will or wont be able to get away with using L-cancel, opposed to not using it.

 

[Team Giza]

Yes Melee took some skill to L-cancel correctly. I was not saying it doesn't when I said "just pressing a button". The thing is, Melee L-cancel wasn't limiting enough IMO. In Melee, every time you bit an aerial you wanted to L-cancel, and it was just kind of a technical barrier that was put into the game. Basically there was never a reason not to L-cancel, so it was just a pointless throw-in to make the game more technical. But in Brawl, you won't be able to L-cancel every time you do an aerial. So basically it makes variation in how characters are played and punished a little more unique. I like the change... a lot.

 

[BigRick]

Well think about it, with this new style of L-cancel it will be much harder to use a move like a sex kick as a super-high priority battering ram. Or a move like the knee is much harder now. It gives people with bad SHFFL moves in the last game a bigger chance to fight back.

No no no you don't seem to understand... Sex kicks will be advantaged because they usually come out way faster than the majority of aerials. If a move has too much startup time, you will have to fastfall before executing the move therefore the move might not have the time to come out!!!

In melee, there were a few aerials that couldn't be shffled and you're increasing that phenomenom with the new L-cancel mechanic.

Therefore, slower moves might get even more disadvantaged while fast moves won't... it's already harder to hit your opponent with a slow aerial because he sees it coming, if you have to fullhop to be able to L-cancel it the air to ground effectiveness of said moves will decrease dramatically.

So basically, the new L-cancel should give more advantage to the characters with moves that have fast startup.

What I'm saying is just theory and speculation... however this is the most logical conclusion IMO.

 

[Aminar]

Honestly I like it. It seems harder to do(than L cancel but easier than SHffl), while taking advantage of the new floatiness of the game. In addition a move being cancelable can make it more balanced.

And I'm noticing a sentiment where people feel their techs were all that seperated them from noobs. If you win just because you know more about the game, but they are better than you as a player perhaps you shouldn't be winning. In addition advanced techs really don't make you that much better on their own. It's how yu use them, so even if you don't use them your mental game is more important.

I guess what I' saying is the way they implemented a different cersion of Shffling shows me they are adding advanced techs in on purpose in a different manner.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Honestly I like it. It seems harder to do(than L cancel but easier than SHffl), while taking advantage of the new floatiness of the game. In addition a move being cancelable can make it more balanced.

And I'm noticing a sentiment where people feel their techs were all that seperated them from noobs. If you win just because you know more about the game, but they are better than you as a player perhaps you shouldn't be winning.

Stopped reading right there. One thing that I love about Melee is that the majority of the time, the better player wins. If the "noob" who didn't know advanced techs were better as a player, then they would've won. Period.

Now it's true that advanced techs aren't an instant win, but usually, the player who is making an effort to learn advanced techs is the player who's striving to play Melee at a higher level than the "noob" who doesn't know them. That's what makes the player who knows advanced techs more likely to win. He's probably playing smash more actively with more skilled players who also want to get better. Nothing against the "noob" or casual player but he just might be ignorant (not stupid, just unaware) of the fact that there's a whole 'nother level of gameplay out there,

 

[Smooth Criminal]

*snip.*

I'm sorry. I didn't even read your post, 56k. Lol.

Seriously, though, I did. Why is everybody afraid that this game is going to be watered down because of the removal of wavedashing and the retooling of L-canceling? That's something I don't understand. I mean, if I fretted every time a sequel came out for a fighting game I would've probably torn out all of my hair by now. They're changing the game's engines around---so what? How many people *****ed and moaned at the transition SF made with SF3? How many people griped at the character alterations in subsequent sequels to GGX?

And how many of these people got over it?

Let bygones be bygones (or in this case, let casual players be casual players). People like you and I will be pushing Brawl to its limits when it releases. There's going to be techniques and strategies that set us apart from the average player. It's inevitable.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Why is everybody afraid that this game is going to be watered down because of the removal of wavedashing and the retooling of L-canceling? That's something I don't understand.

It's not just that, but a lot of us are disappointed because so far, many important aspects of advanced play have been removed.

WD - Gone
Manual Direction Air Dodging - Gone
CC Smashes - Nearly Impossible to Perform
Projectile Spamming - Not Effective
L-Canceling - Nerfed
DJC - Removed from more characters
B-Move Land Canceling - Gone
Turn-around Neutral B - Gone
Combos - Nerfed
Chaingrabs - Severely Nerfed

Also, things like sweetspotting and stage-grappling have been dumbed down and it removes a lot of the challenge.

It seems to me that the developers actually made an effort to water down anything that had to do with advanced Smash.

 

[Irow]

So basically, the new L-cancel should give more advantage to the characters with moves that have fast startup.

Well, I understand what your saying but I don't really agree that it will give a bigger advantage to characters with a fast start up time.

A SHFFL sex kick was really effective in Melee because the fast fall came after the move. IT didn't take the exact timing like some other moves. Because they had really high priority, it was really dangerous to characters who didn't have a move to block it with. And even if you attempted to shield the move and go for a shield grab, they would probably be behind you.

That's not to say a character like DK is going to see improvements because of this new way of L-Cancel. In fact, his Fair is going to even more useless.

I don't think that this new style of L-cancel is going to give advantages to the faster start up characters, because with the exception of Ike, every character has an aerial that is fast enough for use. Ex. DK's Bair, Bowser's Fair

And sex kicks had almost no lag L-canceled in the other games. So this new style doesn't make them really better, in my opinion. It just means that they won't be used in the same way, like to repeatedly ram a slower character with SHFFL's.

And yes, even without the old AT's. I'm pretty sure there will be new ones that we'll discover. And what seperates the pro's from intermediates is that they use AT's at smart times. They don't need to wavedash, or even SHFFL. Look at Mashashi, one of Japan's best players. A lot of the time he doesn't even short hop. What separates good from bad is the smart use of moves, AT or not.

 

[Takalth]

It's not just that, but a lot of us are disappointed because so far, many important aspects of advanced play have been removed.

WD - Gone
Manual Direction Air Dodging - Gone
CC Smashes - Nearly Impossible to Perform
Projectile Spamming - Not Effective
L-Canceling - Nerfed
DJC - Removed from more characters
B-Move Land Canceling - Gone
Turn-around Neutral B - Gone
Combos - Nerfed
Chaingrabs - Severely Nerfed

Also, things like sweetspotting and stage-grappling have been dumbed down and it removes a lot of the challenge.

It seems to me that the developers actually made an effort to water down anything that had to do with advanced Smash.

There is another side to this:
WD - Gone as a result of a physics change, instead of being deliberately removed
CC Smashes - I'd hardly call them an advanced tech
Projectile Spamming - This is only part of advanced play because it's effective, and not because it's deeply strategic.
L-Canceling - Better for fast moves (all lag is removed) worse for slow moves. Encourages more air time
DJC- the long slow jumps with characters like Yoshi might be able to be used in their own style of combos with DJC removed.
B-move land canceling - I would have liked to see a bit of this stay
Turn-around neutral B - Definitely should have stayed
Combos - Maybe nerfed. Maybe not, as it takes a lot of practice to learn to properly combo n Melee, it may take a while to learn new systems of comboing.
Chaingrabs - Same as projectile spamming

Grappling: Notice screenshots where characters grapple platforms? Done right, you might use the grappling abilities a lot in your air combat on stages with platforms, meaning that Sakurai might have actually deepened the game with this.

Not to mention, hints of advanced techs were found by people cramming in 2 minute playing sessions with people trying to beat on them. I still believe that there are advanced techs that were deliberately put into the game.

While I'm not convinced that it will be as good as Melee from a competitive standpoint, I still think there's a decent chance that it could either match or exceed it.

 

[SiD]

Meh, I think it's kinda dumb. I was kinda glad when I heard all moves had less lag, so there was no need for L canceling. It doesn't really remove any depth from the game, just shortens the learning curve. But now this new L canceling that gets rid of all lag? I don't like the sounds of it really. That might end up sucking. Having no lag at all is just kinda dumb to me. Plus, to me, less tech skill = more of a focus on mindgames, which = more fun. Sure, I'll wait and see before making my final judgement. But were it my choice, all L canceling would be gone.

 

[Mama]

This thread is still alive....why?

Honestly it seems that a lot of people are getting the wrong idea about the new form of lag canceling.

I'll start with the "Its more balanced/fair" view.

If you think about it L-canceling was never an unbalanced thing. Its mostly the people who can't do it well that make that statement. They tend to think that L-canceling retracts from the thought of the game or that some characters can L-cancel better than others (?) and it simply doesn't make sense. It takes more skill and more knowledge to do a combo and know when to L-cancel each move in order to stay fluid. Just because L-canceling is done differently does not mean it will be more balanced or that less skilled players will have an easy time doing it. Now we'll just have to adapt to this new way. Learn the timing and most efficient ways. How is that nerfed? Its just different. Nerfed means that its less effective. Its just as effective, it will be just as esoteric, and it will be done in a different way that we aren't used to. Calling it nerfed is just showing your own weakness/fear of change. Calling it an attempt at balance also shows ignorance.

@ the sad sack view:
You guys seriously need to stop seeing every tweak and change as a reason to weep like a child. As I said before L-canceling is just different. You're still looking at this game as Melee plus whatever changes when in actuality you don't know that much at all. This new way to L-cancel is in Brawl not Melee. Characters are a tad floatier in Brawl. More air time means different ways to combo with different move mechanics.

Idiots seem to look at Brawl and see it as an attempt by developers to water down the advanced techniques. Other idiots look at Brawl and see it as an attempt by the developers to eliminate the glitches and make Brawl easier for everyone.

In actuality the advanced play is something established by the players. Not the developers. The devoted players are the ones that discover things and examine the game at a frame by frame level. The competitive scene is not that large compared to the casual crowd. Do you honestly believe that the developers are going to break their backs just so they can remove advanced tactics from the game so that the millions of other people who don't know about it will never know about it? That is just illogical. The way we use the advanced techniques was not something on the minds of the devs when Melee was created. Sakurai never said "Lets invent the Shffl" he just made a playground and let everyone go exploring. Brawl will be no different. Don't lament over the changes as if it were Melee being changed. Instead be intrigued by the changes and how they will work out in Brawl. Brawl will have a different physics engine, new characters, new mechanics, new techniques, etc. Think outside the box.

Lastly don't see it as an attempt to water it down. And on the flipside don't rejoice as if Brawl is going to be the end of advanced play or "glitches" because there will always be things discovered by players. If you didn't know about them before you wont hear about them later. If you refused to learn before you'd better change your tune or be left in the dust. Look at Brawl as a field of opportunities. I'm excited to see how the meta game evolves. I was late to Melee (in the advanced side) but I'll be on the frontline with Brawl.

 

[Mama]

Meh, I think it's kinda dumb. I was kinda glad when I heard all moves had less lag, so there was no need for L canceling. It doesn't really remove any depth from the game, just shortens the learning curve. But now this new L canceling that gets rid of all lag? I don't like the sounds of it really. That might end up sucking. Having no lag at all is just kinda dumb to me. Plus, to me, less tech skill = more of a focus on mindgames, which = more fun. Sure, I'll wait and see before making my final judgement. But were it my choice, all L canceling would be gone.

Thats rather closed minded.

An open minded person would understand that technical skill + mind games is far greater than either one alone. You're looking at apples and oranges and saying that an apple alone is better rather than having your choice between either one.

and I double posted becuase I felt like it.

 

[SiD]

Thats rather closed minded.

An open minded person would understand that technical skill + mind games is far greater than either one alone. You're looking at apples and oranges and saying that an apple alone is better rather than having your choice between either one.

and I double posted becuase I felt like it.

It's not close minded, it's my opinion. What you said there, that's close minded, as you won't even give my opinion a fair chance.

I disagree, I believe that at high levels of play tech skill doesn't matter anyway. Do the pros miss L cancels? Do the pros not wavedash or pivot or SHFFL because they can't do it? No, they don't. So therefore, my theory is that removing L canceling from the game only removes the learning curve, without removing depth from the game.

Obviously you disagree, but I don't appreciate the way you view my opinion. It is just one theory, after all. I never once meant to state it as fact.


And I just kinda reread you metaphor like thing, and, why would you choose between mindgames and tech skill? I don't think that's what you meant. But all I'm saying is, I'd rather only have to eat an apple than have to eat both. (In order to be good.)

 

[Mama]

It's not close minded, it's my opinion. What you said there, that's close minded, as you won't even give my opinion a fair chance.

I disagree, I believe that at high levels of play tech skill doesn't matter anyway. Do the pros miss L cancels? Do the pros not wavedash or pivot or SHFFL because they can't do it? No, they don't. So therefore, my theory is that removing L canceling from the game only removes the learning curve, without removing depth from the game.

Obviously you disagree, but I don't appreciate the way you view my opinion. It is just one theory, after all. I never once meant to state it as fact.


And I just kinda reread you metaphor like thing, and, why would you choose between mindgames and tech skill? I don't think that's what you meant. But all I'm saying is, I'd rather only have to eat an apple than have to eat both. (In order to be good.)

Lol well sorry if I came off as overly negative. It just seemed like you were saying that technical skill is not necessary. I agree that it would reduce the learning curve and that mind games and state of mind are the main seperator between pros and non pros though. I'm not the type who wants things to be complicated just for the sake of being complicated.

And all I meant was that having the option to utilize all of your skill is better than simply focusing on part of your skill. If someone is good at the technical aspect but not there mentally they'd probably suck. But if someone is good at their technical play, is aware of the technical play, and can fully utilize that technical play in their mind games (like triangle jumping, wave land mind games, multi stationary shines for no reason) then that can only amplify. I don't think it would reuce mind play. Then again thinking about it I suppose it would call for people to get more creative.....and I prefer oranges over apples.

 

[SiD]

Yeah, I was merely talking about L canceling as it is in Melee, because removing that can't affect mindgames at all. This new thing is obviously debatable, I think I'd personally like it better without it, but it can also like the examples you gave help with mind games. Like I said before, I'll reserve judgement till I play it. But regardless of that, I think anything that removes all lag like that is kinda stupid inherently.

*Glares at Peach*



EDIT: And lol Mama, are you following me or something? This is like the 4th thread.

 

[Mama]

Yeah, I was merely talking about L canceling as it is in Melee, because removing that can't affect mindgames at all. This new thing is obviously debatable, I think I'd personally like it better without it, but it can also like the examples you gave help with mind games. Like I said before, I'll reserve judgement till I play it. But regardless of that, I think anything that removes all lag like that is kinda stupid inherently.

*Glares at Peach*



EDIT: And lol Mama, are you following me or something? This is like the 4th thread.

Lol well when the boards are a bit less lively people tend to bump into each other a lot when they go after the threads that just got a new post.

And I suppose that removing ALL lag may seem a bit dumb but I do use Peach lol. I decided to pick up Peach (along with Ganondorf) when I was a half scrub because I wanted to be different from the rest of my friends. (Imagine my surprise to find that Peach was actually considered high tier.)

Also I think that the start up will effect the cancelation of some moves. Moves that are slow to start (like Ganon's down air) might be difficult to cancel (by Melee standards of course seeing as how Ganondorf may not have a single move in Brawl thats similar to Melee). I'm curious to see how things pan out in Brawl. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a different way to cancel in the final iteration of Brawl. It was a demo after all and the lag canceling as it is now may have just been absent due to the fact that it was a demo.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I think the melee version is better even though this one cancels all the lag. If you ff before you use an attack your aerial will probably not be executed unless the new ff isn't fast.

 

[LevesqueIsKing]

Could someone explain the new version in detail?

All you have to do is FF an aerial attack and its automatically L-Cancelled? The first thing that comes to mind is that this was a diversion and Sakurai will be changing it, because that just doesn't make sense.

 

[Aceleeon]

good note TeamGiza, Lcancelling didnt even require thought, and it kind of hinderd your game if you didnt do it after evrey attack once you really knew how to do it.
Somebody also made a point that its not just Lcancell that makes this a good or bad change, its what you can do out of it.
I think itll be fine. and well all play and like it just as much anyway. im for the new style of play in Brawl.