Do you think the new L-cancel is stupid?

[Irow]

Well, my brother has been complain about this a lot. You no longer have to press L, R, or Z to cancel a move. Instead the new mechanics in Brawl make you fast-fall first then do a move. [Correct me if I'm wrong] And it will cancel all the lag. My brother keeps on arguing that it will less skillful than the Melee L-cancel. However, I don't think so.

If the game kept the old L-Cancel, then a lot of the game would play similar to Melee. I know some people want the game to be like Melee. But it's a new game, it shouldn't have the same mechanics as the last game. With Brawl, somethings will be more abused than other things, but I wouldn't want the same abusable aerials from Melee to show up in Brawl.

Tell me what you think about the new way to L-Cancel. Is it something that won't take as much skill to use? Or do you think it will open up a whole new style of play.

Give me your ideas. Tell me what applications you could use for this new way to L-Cancel.

 

[Kirby knight]

Tell your brother to stop complaining. Omg you no longer have to press L, R or Z = less skillful. A lag cancel is a lag cancel. It's a brand new game, either he'll adapt or he'll just keep on playing melee. I honestly don't know why people jump to conclusions about something they know almost nothing about, let your brother reserve his full judgment until brawl comes out.

Your brother is a real crybaby ;_;

-Knight

 

[Crooked Crow]

I also think the Melee version was better..
The new SHFFLing makes you fastfall before doing your aerial, so it seems that you can't do rising aerials no more which was useful to some characters.. I think DK had to have a rising shorthop f-air for the attack to come out, and seems that his f-air hasn't changed in terms of speed.
I don't really mind that you don't have to press L or R anymore though..
It's just weird to fastfall before the aerial.

 

[ScaryMunky]

Well, take Cpt Falcon, and try to short hop aerials by fast falling before you do them..... can you even do it? Though apparently characters are more "floaty"? .. but it just seems like SHFFL'ing will be effed.

 

[Salaad]

So does that mean no more LC'd Nairs?

I honestly don't mind, cause it's a new game and not Melee.

 

[rockmace]

well, seems that Lag canceling is in the game, they just modified the input. if your bro is truly a skilled player, he will not have problems adapting to the new input, since lag canceling is the same, still can be implemented in the competitive game, again, just with diferent input.

if he has skill, adapting will be no problem, and this will hopefully allow for more players to do, thus bringing more challengers, something that always should make very happy at any true pro player.

 

[Kaotical]

Nair will be harder to perform, but hey, no more effed up aerials by mistimed button presses.

 

[jupiter]

stupid??? wow...nice wide range of vocabulary to describe something.

 

[BananaHammock]

One thing I'm curious about (and I'm sure Gimpyfish knows or has answered it) is whether or not you still can fast fall after and aerial attack. My guess is that you can. On the topic of whether I like the new L cancel. I do. I think it's a great way to check the power of L cancelling and will probably add a new layer of strategy ala "do I use the attack early and forego the cancel or do I wait and leave myself open a little longer so I can fast fall first?".

On the other hand it might just screw over certain characters and not add any new strategy. We'll see.

 

[Micahc]

Yes, I hate it. But that's only cause I'm a jerk and shuffling is now a reflex and a habit I don't want to break

 

[BentoBox]

 

[BokutoGuy]

lol^^^ tempted to make that my sig, but i dont mind the new l cancel

 

[Ban Heim]

New l-cancel sucks donkey balls. Let's make everything easy for everyone! Yay! You no longer have to have any skill to sweetspot. Yay! You no longer have to actually aim at a ledge when attempting a tether recovery! Yay! You no longer have to press a proper sequence of buttons to achieve a desired result (since this is what fighting games are not about anyways)! Yay!

You can now just press A to instantly kill your opponent. Yay! Noob smash! w00t! Let's make everything easy for everyone!

Yeah, it's a new game, but ****ing over the game's depth doesn't mean it's going to be any better, new game or not. Shallow gameplay = ****ty gameplay. And yeah, I'm sure we'll find other ways of making the game deep, but it won't be as deep as Melee. And yeah, it's a different game and it shouldn't be as deep as melee, but why take a step back? Sequels are meant to be better, and smash is no exception. It shouldn't be Melee 2.0, but it should be a deeper and better game overall.

 

[BentoBox]

Done crying?

 

[TheMastermind]

there will be more advanced tecniques in Brawl then there was in melee.
We havnt even scratched the surface on half the characters. There will be alot mroe depth to this game.
Alothough we havnt found it in the short time we had with the game.

 

[Ban Heim]

Done crying?

Nope. Done posting pointless posts? Probably not.

Easy mode...ON!

 

[BentoBox]

Your post wasn't pointless? Lawl.

 

[Ban Heim]

Your post wasn't pointless? Lawl.

Oh, hey look, I was right when I said you weren't done. Who would have guessed.

My post wasn't pointless actually. It was a retaliation to your ****ty pointless one. It also expressed my feelings towards how the developers were handling certain aspects of the game (easy mode). Therefore no, not pointless.

However, you should feel proud of your amazing post. +1 to post count. Takes someone skilled to pull that off, but you managed to do it three times in this topic alone. How the **** do you do it? Amazing!

 

[BentoBox]

This has been discussed long enough, thus making this thread pointless. Posting in a pointless thread is pointless.

So to OP:

As for you:

This is how I do it, don't tell anyone!

edit: forgot to add a smiley!



k.

 

[iankobe]

Stupid thread.

Everything's too early to say.

 

[Stueyman2099]

It really all depends on where it is that you want the 'skill' to be. Take a look at a shffl in melee. All the pieces of it independently are not very difficult to do, however to use them in rapid succession in a shffl is rather difficult by comparison. This is where your brother seems to be associating skill to be. By removing the 'L' canceling from the Equation (and turning it into 'lag canceling' triggering automatically with a fast fall) we've removed one of the pieces of the equation and made the move easier to perform. Now, here's where I get to where I've been going with this. It's mine (and several of the people I know) opinion that fighting the controls in general is not the best of game design mechanics. One of my friends even suggested a short hop button be available for the customizable control schemes that Nintendo has been talking about to make character control even easier. Nintendo already went quite a way in simplifying the fighting game genre by replacing your down, down/right, right, punch moves with B, and here they continue to work on that equation. What this essentially does is move away from sitting in FD practicing the same thing for hours on end (possibly less if you don't suck like me) and allows what I consider skillful play to be; actually USING the moves in ways to beat your opponent. In Melee I'm fighting the controller, in Brawl I'm fighting you. Thats the theory anyway.

 

[Danielman]

you're basing the final game off a demo. you do know the game could change any number of ways right?

 

[Takalth]

After thinking about it, I actually think the new L-cancel adds more skill, as well as fulfilling Sakurai's objective about more aerial combat.

Difference #1: L-canceling is now a choice: In Melee, L-canceling was something that you do 100% of the time. In Brawl, it won't always be the right decision.

Difference #2: Full jumps will become more valuable. as has been stated before, some moves can't be SHFFLed anymore. Of course, the automatic response to this comment will be "But you can see a full-jumped attack coming a mile away," which is true but is also okay because of:

Difference #3: ALL lag is removed. You're less vulnerable after an L-cancel than you were in Melee, so even if they try to shield grab you or something, you'll actually be able to crack off a quick attack or spot dodge faster than they can get their grab out.

Believe me, I am one of the people who was (and still is) concerned about whether Brawl will match up to Melee for competitive value, but if you give it some thought, the new L-cancel system sounds to me like it has more potential for mindgames than the old one.

On top of that, it seems highly unlikely that this new L-cancel got past QA without notice, which means that THEY DELIBERATELY ADDED AN ADVANCED TECHNIQUE. Really, the new L-cancel gives me hope.

 

[2007]

sweet. all I know is that I want to learn these new advanced techniques earlier in my Brawl career than in my Melee career.
=2007=

 

[raphtmarqui]

The only thing I wonder is why exactly didn't the allow the cancel to work when you do the aerial before you fastfall.
Its basically the same thing. <_<

 

[Micahc]

To me the new L-Cancel looks like a SHL, except with a C-stick and not a laser :/


And laser should be spelled with a "Z" IMO

 

[Trinexx]

And laser should be spelled with a "Z" IMO

QFT!

On topic: I'm all for the new L-canceling. All lag removed > Most lag removed

 

[Danielman]

It really all depends on where it is that you want the 'skill' to be. Take a look at a shffl in melee. All the pieces of it independently are not very difficult to do, however to use them in rapid succession in a shffl is rather difficult by comparison. This is where your brother seems to be associating skill to be. By removing the 'L' canceling from the Equation (and turning it into 'lag canceling' triggering automatically with a fast fall) we've removed one of the pieces of the equation and made the move easier to perform. Now, here's where I get to where I've been going with this. It's mine (and several of the people I know) opinion that fighting the controls in general is not the best of game design mechanics. One of my friends even suggested a short hop button be available for the customizable control schemes that Nintendo has been talking about to make character control even easier. Nintendo already went quite a way in simplifying the fighting game genre by replacing your down, down/right, right, punch moves with B, and here they continue to work on that equation. What this essentially does is move away from sitting in FD practicing the same thing for hours on end (possibly less if you don't suck like me) and allows what I consider skillful play to be; actually USING the moves in ways to beat your opponent. In Melee I'm fighting the controller, in Brawl I'm fighting you. Thats the theory anyway.

After thinking about it, I actually think the new L-cancel adds more skill, as well as fulfilling Sakurai's objective about more aerial combat.

Difference #1: L-canceling is now a choice: In Melee, L-canceling was something that you do 100% of the time. In Brawl, it won't always be the right decision.

Difference #2: Full jumps will become more valuable. as has been stated before, some moves can't be SHFFLed anymore. Of course, the automatic response to this comment will be "But you can see a full-jumped attack coming a mile away," which is true but is also okay because of:

Difference #3: ALL lag is removed. You're less vulnerable after an L-cancel than you were in Melee, so even if they try to shield grab you or something, you'll actually be able to crack off a quick attack or spot dodge faster than they can get their grab out.

Believe me, I am one of the people who was (and still is) concerned about whether Brawl will match up to Melee for competitive value, but if you give it some thought, the new L-cancel system sounds to me like it has more potential for mindgames than the old one.

On top of that, it seems highly unlikely that this new L-cancel got past QA without notice, which means that THEY DELIBERATELY ADDED AN ADVANCED TECHNIQUE. Really, the new L-cancel gives me hope.

doing what i should have done before: Quote for truth

On topic: I think it should have been this way from the beginning, cause its just a lot easier now

 

[Takalth]

The only thing I wonder is why exactly didn't the allow the cancel to work when you do the aerial before you fastfall.
Its basically the same thing. <_<

My personal opinion is that it makes it so really powerful attacks (link's d-air, C. Falcon's knee, etc) will be more dangerous to use unless you start spending more time in the air. Rather than eliminating shuffling, it's just been modified to only be usable with quick attacks, making it viable for combos and building percents but not for killing.

Competitive melee involved 75% of your game being played at or just above ground level, and while I find that fun, I think Sakurai is trying to get away from that.

 

[Aceleeon]

hmmm the abuse of arieals is a good way to put it. i can definatley agree with you there. (ie Marth and falcon and their crazy YOU LOSE like air combos) the new L cancells sounds like its still going to be that thing you do so naturally after you play a ton anyway. I guess what im gettin at here is that it wont matter if Lcancells are harder/easier b/c theres going to be something you have to do after that determines the difficulty of the Lcancell. I.e when i first started playing, it was easy for me to do bowser up air -> Lcancell. BUT stringing that into another light hop up air was tougher because of the way you had to position bowser to actually hit the person.
I think your bro has a right to complain, but i also think hell get over it once the game comes out and he sees how the NEW cancells string into the other NEW features. Cause its gonna be a bit of a NEW game
( I.e the new air dodges have niched WD so no more crazy lcancelling unstopable falcon and marth combos.....perhaps?)
On a side note it sounds like players are going to have to go into the neutrual position (on the control stick i mean) more so in this one than in Meele. hmmmm what do you guys think?

 

[Aceleeon]

your right Takalth, well said dude. very well said.
only a handful of charecters really benifited from this air attack play, IMO. I too think the designer is getting away from competitions that only involve charecters with adventageous air game. Im happy about this. Id like to see some more diverse charecters and play styles winning tourneys later in the competitive realm. I cant wait to play.

 

[Aceleeon]

we havent played it yet man. dont quit on the game before you play it. we all wanna play right?

Im sure Sakurai is gonna try his best to satisfy his fans. dont lose faith !

and on that note, if you think Regular smash w/o AT's is easy and evreyone can play, I think thats really arguable. I think you still have to be able to power shield, dodge, have precise tilts and all that to be a good player. I think they are changing things cause the ATs in Meele got out of hand. I dunno about you guys, but i think this is why they changed the air dodge so they can rid of some of the WD inbalences in Meele.
Im proposing that perhaps the crazy Ats pose more problems with gameplay and balence than help the diversity and charecter balence of the game. which im sure Sakurai would want since hes gone far and wide to get all these great charecters geared up for Smash. anybody agree?

 

[Micahc]

Dude, there's an edit button. Use it, abuse it, date it. God gave us the edit button for a reason.

 

[greenblob]

Is it just me or does the new SHFFL sound like an actual glitch? I mean, if you FF before your attack, you don't have any landing lag?

 

[bob-e]

The great thing about the old L-cancel was that you could decide how long after your attack you wanted to FF, giving you more flexibility. With the new method that forces you to FF before , the timing is almost predetermined.

 

[Deleted member]

The great thing about the old L-cancel was that you could decide how long after your attack you wanted to FF, giving you more flexibility. With the new method that forces you to FF before , the timing is almost predetermined.

Ah, but that makes things more interesting, eh? U wont always want to l cancel! Even for the same move, u may want to l cancel, or maybe u dont. Sounds deep, doesnt it?

 

[QuickBlade]

the new l cancel doesnt seem 2 bad but i still prefer melee

 

[Pyroloserkid]

Well, with the new L-Cancel, you just do the aerial AFTER the fast fall. This'll take some time to get used to, but people will master it and use it just like they mastered everything in Melee.

 

[iMichael]

the new l cancel doesnt seem 2 bad but i still prefer melee

Amen to that!

 

[Irow]

Well, if you think about how some fighting games have evolved. For a game like Virtua Fighter, when they released a new version of the game, they made some moves easier to do. That way you could focus on the moves to do instead of the technical skill. That's not to say a game like that take no technical skill.

If you were to make something easier to do, wouldn't there be a bigger emphasis on the actual move being done instead of how to do the move. I think this game will be played on a much more mental level than technical.