Do you think Sakurai took out wavedashing...

[zestypizza]

...to get rid of the possibilities of another unfair technique such as the waveshine?

I think he did, so many courses and characters were unplayable because of that one technique

(I apologize of this topic already exists, but I searched and found nothing)

 

[Gerudo Warrior]

i think he just changed the air dodge system

 

[Coselm]

I think that it's not so much that he took out wavedashing, but more that the entire physics of Super Smash Bros. have been revamped, and wavedashing doesn't work anymore.

There might be an even cheaper technique in Brawl, you never know.

 

[thesage]

There might be an even cheaper technique in Brawl, you never know.

QFT and lol at waveshining being the only reason Fox is broken.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

It is quite clear that wavedashing was not the direct target of the changes. If wavedashing were Sakurai's primary concern, there are much simpler ways to prevent it from happening (such as preventing air dodges within the first 30 frames of jumping). Work actually went into making this air dodge system the way it is.

The answer is irrelevant either way. Sakurai may have had wavedashing in the back of his mind, but this is a new game. Even perfectly legit tactics are being removed/changed.

 

[jupiter]

no. he just made a new airdodging system. close this thread already.

 

[zestypizza]

It is quite clear that wavedashing was not the direct target of the changes. If wavedashing were Sakurai's primary concern, there are much simpler ways to prevent it from happening (such as preventing air dodges within the first 30 frames of jumping). Work actually went into making this air dodge system the way it is.

The answer is irrelevant either way. Sakurai may have had wavedashing in the back of his mind, but this is a new game. Even perfectly legit tactics are being removed/changed.

Buzz wins

and I feel really dumb now because I treated Brawl as melee 2.0

 

[orintemple]

Buzz wins

and I feel really dumb now because I treated Brawl as melee 2.0

You and half the world...

 

[RyokoYaksa]

The ability for Fox/Falco to jump cancel theirs shines was broken, not the ability to wavedash.

 

[Kadian]

This question has been addressed before, but whose answer is worth repeating. Sakurai changed many things in Brawl from the basic Melee engine, and added many things also. One change was making air dodges non-directional. Some reasons for this change off the top of my head:

Sakurai wanted to allow players to do moves after a dodge and directional dodging would've made certain aerial techniques overpowered (think multiple jumps). This also drastically reduced accidental self-suicides, since players can not air-dodge off the stage and still recover after an off-stage air-dodge.

Sakurai may have also been thinking about the speed of the game, and lessening its complexity. Since the intended purpose of the air-dodge is to protect oneself from attack, why do players need to input a direction? This also relieves some of the stress on the WiFi since the game can read less variables.

Did this change take out wavedashing as we know it? Yes. But was that Sakurai's specific target? Many of us believe it was only a secondary purpose, since others have stated more direct methods of removing wavedashing, like restricting air-dodging opportunities, preventing any sliding, etc.

If you were to elecit my opinion, Sakurai viewed wavedashing nearly the same way any seasoned tournament veteran does: a simple manipulation of the game's physics engine that did not reduce competitive play to a showcase of superior wavedashing skills (as is often the case with fighting game exploits, i.e. David Serlin's famous anecdote about super-canceling in one of those Street Fighter games), but thankfully add layers of depth and variety to the game. I think there is evidence to this theory in the fact that in the PAL version of Melee, many individual character moves, and even core character properties like weight, were adjusted, or "corrected" for balance, but wavedashing remained.

As is the way with most topics about wavedashing, the more "green" players come in and wail and whine about pros winning "just because they can wavedash", having never seen great players compete, or if they have, not fully understanding the complexities and nuances of situations that occur in top caliber matches. "Pros win + Pros wavedash = wavedashing wins" is flawed logic.

I'd like to see the equation like this: Players are like craftsmen. techniques like l-canceling, wavedashing, dash-dancing, are like tools. No matter the quantity or quality of tools the craftsman uses, the knowledge and skill of the craftsman is the same, with or without any individual device in his arsenal.

Wavedashing is not an overpowered technique, like some percieve it. It's use requires many complex decisions, like length, direction, and timing, and is best utilized by those with great understanding of relative character speed, attack ranges, and stage spacing. Often, it is best not to wavedash at all, unlike l-canceling. With l-canceling, there are no decision. You do it every time. (I'm glad Sakurai made l-canceling easier, since it is such an essential mechanic of the game). Some character don't even benefit much from wavedashing, like Link, Jigglypuff, and Captain Falcon.

That said, I hope we all have come to terms that though Brawl builds on Melee, and will share a great number of similarities with it, there are noted differences, and there will be more. Sakurai streamlined returning mechanincs like air-dodging and l-canceling, simplifying their implementaion and use (cleaning house, so to speak), so that he could add more moves and systems to create an even more rich and diverse game than Melee. I just hope that, when the new Brawl techniques are discovered, eveyone can view them with an intellectually mannered approach and not prematurely doom the future of what could be a game for the ages.

 

[Kadian]

Drat! It seems zestypizza had grasped the idea before I could post my essay...

 

[Lant]

Wavedashing was removed because it wasn't an intentional part of the game.

Same with circle-hopping in Q3 engine games (Quake 3, Jedi Knight: Outcast and so on)

If the gamecube had featured the online capabilities of the 360/Wii and so forth, melee would've probably been patched at some point to remove it, then again, possibly not. The PAL copy of the game rectifies several small parts of the gameplay (Fox being so overpowered and a couple of Marth's finer points) Yet wavedashing was a exploit of the game engine, which isn't so easily changed one would imagine.

Brawl uses an entirely new engine, utilising havok physics for one thing afaik.. so yeah.

[/rant]

 

[Rash]

Wavedashing wasn't "taken out" or "removed." Rather, the mechanic responsible for the possibility of wavedashing was merely altered. Case closed.

 

[muesli]

Brawl uses an entirely new engine, utilising havok physics for one thing afaik.. so yeah.
[/rant]

And I hope there will be not as many bugs as in Melee. With priority and the complete stuff.



muesli

 

[FrogButler]

i think he just changed the air dodge system

Exactly. I don't think he purposely thought, "I'm gonna take out Wavedashing..."

A lot of people seem to forget that wavedashing is actually just a dodging system glitch. They didn't purposely develop the wavedash. It was just created via the air dodge system.

 

[Sp1yd3r]

he prolly did but didnt realize it

 

[FrogButler]

^Exactly what I also meant to imply.

 

[DeuceBlade]

new physics. no wavedash.

 

[Darkfur]

No. Because he didn't take out wavedashing. He changed the mechanics of the airdodge. Removal of wavedashing is a side effect of that. So since what he did was make the air dodge momentum based, I doubt that was his reasoning.

 

[Puffin]

This question has been addressed before, but whose answer is worth repeating. Sakurai changed many things in Brawl from the basic Melee engine, and added many things also. One change was making air dodges non-directional. Some reasons for this change off the top of my head:

Sakurai wanted to allow players to do moves after a dodge and directional dodging would've made certain aerial techniques overpowered (think multiple jumps). This also drastically reduced accidental self-suicides, since players can not air-dodge off the stage and still recover after an off-stage air-dodge.

Sakurai may have also been thinking about the speed of the game, and lessening its complexity. Since the intended purpose of the air-dodge is to protect oneself from attack, why do players need to input a direction? This also relieves some of the stress on the WiFi since the game can read less variables.

Did this change take out wavedashing as we know it? Yes. But was that Sakurai's specific target? Many of us believe it was only a secondary purpose, since others have stated more direct methods of removing wavedashing, like restricting air-dodging opportunities, preventing any sliding, etc.

If you were to elecit my opinion, Sakurai viewed wavedashing nearly the same way any seasoned tournament veteran does: a simple manipulation of the game's physics engine that did not reduce competitive play to a showcase of superior wavedashing skills (as is often the case with fighting game exploits, i.e. David Serlin's famous anecdote about super-canceling in one of those Street Fighter games), but thankfully add layers of depth and variety to the game. I think there is evidence to this theory in the fact that in the PAL version of Melee, many individual character moves, and even core character properties like weight, were adjusted, or "corrected" for balance, but wavedashing remained.

As is the way with most topics about wavedashing, the more "green" players come in and wail and whine about pros winning "just because they can wavedash", having never seen great players compete, or if they have, not fully understanding the complexities and nuances of situations that occur in top caliber matches. "Pros win + Pros wavedash = wavedashing wins" is flawed logic.

I'd like to see the equation like this: Players are like craftsmen. techniques like l-canceling, wavedashing, dash-dancing, are like tools. No matter the quantity or quality of tools the craftsman uses, the knowledge and skill of the craftsman is the same, with or without any individual device in his arsenal.

Wavedashing is not an overpowered technique, like some percieve it. It's use requires many complex decisions, like length, direction, and timing, and is best utilized by those with great understanding of relative character speed, attack ranges, and stage spacing. Often, it is best not to wavedash at all, unlike l-canceling. With l-canceling, there are no decision. You do it every time. (I'm glad Sakurai made l-canceling easier, since it is such an essential mechanic of the game). Some character don't even benefit much from wavedashing, like Link, Jigglypuff, and Captain Falcon.

That said, I hope we all have come to terms that though Brawl builds on Melee, and will share a great number of similarities with it, there are noted differences, and there will be more. Sakurai streamlined returning mechanincs like air-dodging and l-canceling, simplifying their implementaion and use (cleaning house, so to speak), so that he could add more moves and systems to create an even more rich and diverse game than Melee. I just hope that, when the new Brawl techniques are discovered, eveyone can view them with an intellectually mannered approach and not prematurely doom the future of what could be a game for the ages.

I'm going to have to save that and quote it in every post. That was excellent.

 

[Arch-Angel]

Wavedashing was a glitch in the game's physics. I don't think nintendo wants people using wavedash. Maybe not i dunno, pros will most likely find a new glitch and exploit it.

 

[tutata]

...to get rid of the possibilities of another unfair technique such as the waveshine?

I think he did, so many courses and characters were unplayable because of that one technique

(I apologize of this topic already exists, but I searched and found nothing)

You call the waveshine unfair huh? you must play alot of items or you are rilly mad that you cant do it your self, anyways he wants to make it better for casual players.
I guess he assumes that ppl are gonna go online and use WD and then ppl are gonna cry just like when ppl cried when they get BXR'd online.

 

[Igneous42]

I think that it's not so much that he took out wavedashing, but more that the entire physics of Super Smash Bros. have been revamped, and wavedashing doesn't work anymore.

There might be an even cheaper technique in Brawl, you never know.

I think it's partially both. I think a goal of the developers for the new physics was to make a system harder to exploit. I'm not saying this because I want it that way or I think it should be but it looks like Brawl will be a bit more simple. The brawl"competitive" scene will be easier to get into than the melee one was. And the Margin that separates pro's from casuals won't be as big.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Wavedashing was a glitch in the game's physics. I don't think nintendo wants people using wavedash. Maybe not i dunno, pros will most likely find a new glitch and exploit it.

There's that cursed word "glitch" again.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glitch

A glitch is an error or malfunction in programming. Wavedashing consists of three elements that were completely and intentionally programmed into the game: a short hop, a diagonal air dodge into the ground that can be used during the first few frames of the hop, and the special slide that results.
If wavedashing were a programming glitch, it would have been fixed in the PAL release of Melee along with a number of other bugs, but it wasn't. I doubt the game's programmers foresaw the possibility of a wavedash or its usefulness when they programmed the game so that you can cancel a jump with a directional air dodge immediately, but they didn't remove it when they had the chance, so it wasn't a problem.

 

[zestypizza]

I can wave shine
but any infinite isn't fair

 

[OrlanduEX]

I can wave shine
but any infinite isn't fair

Nonsense. Many highly competitive and much played games incorporate infinites. Anyone heard of Marvel vs. Capcom 2? That's like the second most played fighting game in America (next to Smash of course ) and it is RIFE with infinites.
Also, the waveshine infinite isn't something you can do very easily, or on every stage. Why do you think places like Yoshi's Island are banned?

 

[Igneous42]

There's that cursed word "glitch" again.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/glitch

A glitch is an error or malfunction in programming. Wavedashing consists of three elements that were completely and intentionally programmed into the game: a short hop, a diagonal air dodge into the ground that can be used during the first few frames of the hop, and the special slide that results.
If wavedashing were a programming glitch, it would have been fixed in the PAL release of Melee along with a number of other bugs, but it wasn't. I doubt the game's programmers foresaw the possibility of a wavedash or its usefulness when they programmed the game so that you can cancel a jump with a directional air dodge immediately, but they didn't remove it when they had the chance, so it wasn't a problem.

I'd call it an exploit of in game mechanics. So no not a glitch, but still not an intentional advance tech. Some (most actually) advanced techs were intentional, crouch canceling, DI etc...

 

[The Hypnotist]

Sakurai took it out because he knew it was important in the competitve community and he wants to soften the blow for online play. Which sucks... a lot. I doubt he knows what wobbling is though. Expect wobbling to return.

 

[WastingPenguins]

I can wave shine
but any infinite isn't fair

Infinite waveshines are exceedingly difficult to pull off consistently, even by seasoned pros, and can only be done against a select few characters. They're more a way to look fancy when you're fighting Link than they are a broken offensive technique.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I'd call it an exploit of in game mechanics. So no not a glitch, but still not an intentional advance tech. Some (most actually) advanced techs were intentional, crouch canceling, DI etc...

I'll agree with that, but glitch makes it sound like were hacking the game.
It most likely wasn't meant to work the way it does, but that shouldn't stop us from using it.
By not changing the properties that make the wavedash possible when they could, Nintendo practically gave us the ok to use it, unless of course they were simply unaware of the whole matter completely, which was also totally possible.

 

[orintemple]

Sakurai took it out because he knew it was important in the competitve community and he wants to soften the blow for online play. Which sucks... a lot. I doubt he knows what wobbling is though. Expect wobbling to return.

This is a really convincing sounding fake post...

You would make a good actor methinks.


Also, I can't believe we still have people calling wavedashing a glitch. That is like, so 4 years ago.

 

[Igneous42]

I'll agree with that, but glitch makes it sound like were hacking the game.
It most likely wasn't meant to work the way it does, but that shouldn't stop us from using it.
By not changing the properties that make the wavedash possible when they could, Nintendo practically gave us the ok to use it, unless of course they were simply unaware of the whole matter completely, which was also totally possible.

As far as I'm concerned other than just plain unfair things, and glitches I'd say anything left in the game goes. I don't play that way, but I think it's fine if people do.

That said, if there is something like wavedashing and it's used for the first few month's of Brawl's metagame, but then they patch it out of online play (so you'd only be able to play it on an un updated wii) then it should stay out.

I don't expect people to do that but I could see some people doing it.

 

[OrlanduEX]

As far as I'm concerned other than just plain unfair things, and glitches I'd say anything left in the game goes. I don't play that way, but I think it's fine if people do.

That said, if there is something like wavedashing and it's used for the first few month's of Brawl's metagame, but then they patch it out of online play (so you'd only be able to play it on an un updated wii) then it should stay out.

I don't expect people to do that but I could see some people doing it.

If it truly got patched out, then it would really be a bug that Nintendo wanted fixed. I don't think anyone would gripe about that (yea right lol).

 

[Johnknight1]

...to get rid of the possibilities of another unfair technique such as the waveshine?

I think he did, so many courses and characters were unplayable because of that one technique

(I apologize of this topic already exists, but I searched and found nothing)

woaw, lol you don't know your stuff.

1. It's the ONLY THING MEWTWO HAS THAT IS GOOD!
2. It balances out the tiers. For example, if not for wavedashing Roy would be low on the tiers, and Link higher (Link is ranked 13th highest out of 26, and Roy 16th highest out of 26).
3. That is another plus for Young Link. If not for wavedashing, he'd be a bottom tier.
4. It's a huge plus for Luigi, making him actually USEABLE! If not for wavedashing, he'd be a bottom tier.
5. It's a extra useable mindgame for almost EVERY CHARACTER!

And wavedashing is not a glitch, it's a exploit. Sakurai knew about it, but wanted to keep it in, since us the players MADE BOTH SMASH BROS. GAMES, AND HOW THEY ARE PLAYED!

Anyways, Sakurai changed it probably (this is a theory) to add more skill then just knowing how to wavedash and air dodge. He wanted us to air dodge in a force particular direction so that way air dodging isn't as useful for escaping from opponents. However, it can be used after the third/final jump recovedry of all characters, which is a extra mind game for the person recovering. It adds a solid layer of balancing that wavedashing could not accomplish, in other words. As much as I like wavedashing, this new air dodging system could possibly be a better balancing mechanism, indefinitely. >_<

And also, technical skill will be less of a focus in Brawl (or at least, when we first get it), and strategic skill will be focused on more. This is neither a good nor a bad thing. And as always, the fans shall make the game, as with all smash games!

 

[Lord Viper]

Ha ha ha ha, no one can do that cheap run away move called wavedash. It's good to use some times, but if you use it too much, you can't defend, lol. A great weakness indeed.

 

[Da N]

Wavedashing wasnt removed in the literal sense, but the mechanics of air dodging has been altered, making you only able to waveland. But I don't think it was a glitch that the developers and sakurai removed.

 

[TheBuzzSaw]

ZOMG Ledge-hopping is a glitch!

 

[The Hypnotist]

I think (part) of the reason the air dodge system was altered was to remove wavedashing. Honestly.

 

[OrlanduEX]

I think (part) of the reason the air dodge system was altered was to remove wavedashing. Honestly.

I think it was actually altered to prevent accidental air dodge suicide.

 

[Da N]

I think (part) of the reason the air dodge system was altered was to remove wavedashing. Honestly.

But wavedash in general wasnt removed, you can't wavedash like you could in Melee, yes, but sliding across the ground off an air dodge has not been removed, its becuase of the new air dodge system that its just more difficult.