Do we need ALL veteran characters back in SSB Ultimate?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#42
I'm glad we got everyone confirmed at the start. Now we don't have to worry about who's getting cut. Now we can see Rosalina & Luma fight the Ice Climbers. Now we can have Pichu, Greninja and Ivysaur in the same match. Now we can see a fight between Young Link and Toon Link. I'm not too worried about the amount of newcomers we will get because the previous roster had to work with the 3DS's limitations and the Switch cards have four times the memory of the 3DS cards. So unless they put too much data on the stages, trophies, modes and items, we could be getting plenty of newcomers. And besides, when there's millions of requested newcomer characters, it would be ridiculous to get them all in, so it makes more sense to make veteran characters a bigger priority than newcomers, especially when even the disliked characters have fans wanting them back. And hey, Ridley was confirmed despite being "too big for Smash." Daisy's been confirmed. The Inklings are here. And that's only three characters. The game launches all the way in December. We would have more new characters revealed by then. If they just stopped at just Daisy, Ridley and the Inklings then that wouldn't be right. And there could be a few more characters in the game at launch that wasn't revealed before. And even if you don't get your Goku, Geno, Tails, Agumon, Batman, Shrek, Waluigi, Captain Toad, Krystal, Bandana Dee or whoever you want, at least you can have any of your mains from past games fight the newcomers the game has. And Smash 4 introduced DLC, so this game could have DLC that are completely new characters.
 

Cloudy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
139
#43
I don't really see any issue whatsover, and I LOVED the "Everyone is back" trailer. While I do agree its interesting to always be debating "Who is returning and who is back" just knowing EVERYONE is back is like the best news ever and I would rather have that than wait every day to see if my main was cut or not, plus it showcases all characters and movesets for people that haven't played the last games. This game celebrates Nintendo history and Im so glad to see everyone back, it does seem like its wanting to be the last smash bros game (that Sakurai directs at least) so why not go out in a bang.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#44
I don't really see any issue whatsover, and I LOVED the "Everyone is back" trailer. While I do agree its interesting to always be debating "Who is returning and who is back" just knowing EVERYONE is back is like the best news ever and I would rather have that than wait every day to see if my main was cut or not, plus it showcases all characters and movesets for people that haven't played the last games. This game celebrates Nintendo history and Im so glad to see everyone back, it does seem like its wanting to be the last smash bros game (that Sakurai directs at least) so why not go out in a bang.
Literally every Smash Bros game was supposed to be "the last." A new Smash game could be announced a few years after Ultimate.
 

Cloudy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 5, 2014
Messages
139
#45
Literally every Smash Bros game was supposed to be "the last." A new Smash game could be announced a few years after Ultimate.
I know I know, Sakurai has the tendency to announce every smash game as his last, and I never believe him, but I dunno, the way he is presenting this game as "the ULTIMATE" makes me feel like he really feels like it will be his last so he is doing the most to please everyone (that he directs, I'm sure Smash bros will never die as long as Nintendo exists), however I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai indeed came back for the next game.
 

Camc10

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 11, 2014
Messages
356
Location
Parkville, Maryland
3DS FC
3625-9535-8650
NNID
Cam10_84
#46
I know I know, Sakurai has the tendency to announce every smash game as his last, and I never believe him, but I dunno, the way he is presenting this game as "the ULTIMATE" makes me feel like he really feels like it will be his last so he is doing the most to please everyone (that he directs, I'm sure Smash bros will never die as long as Nintendo exists), however I wouldn't be surprised if Sakurai indeed came back for the next game.
I dont think its the last, but i do think its gonna last for a long while, more than 4 did especially.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#47
I doubt we'll get that high. Currently we have 65 characters. I'd say we might get to 68 pre-DLC, then maybe a couple more. 74 at the absolute most.
Actually, we currently have 69 characters, so we already hit that 68. And looking at how the roster increased each game:
64 - 12
Melee - 26 (14 new)
Brawl - 30 (19 new)
Wii U/3DS - 58 (21 new)

The roster doubles each game and with the Switch having four times the storage than the 3DS, we could be looking at a roster of nearly 100 characters.
 

Gallerian

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
59
#48
Actually, we currently have 69 characters, so we already hit that 68. And looking at how the roster increased each game:
64 - 12
Melee - 26 (14 new)
Brawl - 30 (19 new)
Wii U/3DS - 58 (21 new)

The roster doubles each game and with the Switch having four times the storage than the 3DS, we could be looking at a roster of nearly 100 characters.
Nearly 100? Okay there pal, you gotta dial it back like, twenty or so notches. I'm honestly expecting a roster no bigger than 72 or 73, if you include the Echo Characters as their own number in the roster (by that, I mean without the epsilon symbol). Sakurai stated that getting every veteran ever to return was priority numero uno. So, for now, we should consider about five or six more reveals to be reasonable.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#50
Nearly 100? Okay there pal, you gotta dial it back like, twenty or so notches. I'm honestly expecting a roster no bigger than 72 or 73, if you include the Echo Characters as their own number in the roster (by that, I mean without the epsilon symbol). Sakurai stated that getting every veteran ever to return was priority numero uno. So, for now, we should consider about five or six more reveals to be reasonable.
I don't get why only adding a couple more newcomers would be more reasonable than doubling the roster like past games. People would be disappointed if the game doesn't offer that many new characters.
 

Gallerian

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
59
#51
I don't get why only adding a couple more newcomers would be more reasonable than doubling the roster like past games. People would be disappointed if the game doesn't offer that many new characters.
The thing is that this time around, we were specifically told not to expect all that many newcomers. And 100 characters is simply way too much, nay, impossible for a game that has literally only had a 2 year development cycle. With a roster currently boasting 65 characters and 4 clones; it's simply way too much for make up each move, animate them, playtest them, balance them, debug them, and refine them if the game has 100 characters. And that's not even talking about making each alternate color, sound effects, and voice files.

I would rather a smaller set of high quality newcomers as opposed to a large number of poor quality ones. If SSBU had a longer development cycle, then larger pools of characters would have been reasonable, but what you're asking for is simply too much for 1 team with only 2 years to make this game.

Another thing is simply storage space of the cartridges and consoles. Cartridges can only hold so much, and when it comes to the system... do you really want all of your system's storage space filled up by just one game? Not everyone plays Smash hardcore, and have many things on their consoles digitally. I personally would hate to remove a game like Breath of the Wild from my system just to fit Smash if I had gotten both digitally if Smash was that massive.
 
Last edited:

Drawcia

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 15, 2018
Messages
85
#53
When I first heard the idea, I was really on the fence. I was upset that we weren’t getting as many newcomers, especially when we had 3 Links.

But, the more I thought about it, I really like the idea. Like many others have pointed out, this is the ultimate version of Smash, so taking out even on veteran wouldn’t make any sense.

And as pointed out by so many, we’ll always have DLC.

At first glance, it may seem like a mistake, but I think it’s about time we got something like this.
 
Joined
Apr 26, 2016
Messages
1,110
Location
Sweden
#54
This is all we get. No more characters after this.
This is the last Smash game for Sakurai as director.
This is Smash 4 Super Deluxe Ultimate
This is the last Smash for a looooong time.
1. I highly doubt it. I think they would have said something if that were the case. I could see us only getting 1-3 new characters and maybe 1-3 new echo fighters though. I'm pretty okay with that.
2. Could be, although I'm not convinced Smash needs Sakurai. Still, we don't really know either way, maybe he'll take a break (and maybe makes some other game) before the next game.
3. Those who have played it say it feels very different from Smash 4, so this doesn't seem to be the case.
4. Probably. I don't see them making a new Smash for the Switch, and assuming the Switch continues to do well (around 17 million copies sold already, with Wii U around 14 million) it seems likely that it'll last for years.[/QUOTE]
 
Last edited:

LordTakeo

Master of Mediocre
Joined
Oct 7, 2014
Messages
1,267
Location
In grab range
#56
Nobody likes having their favourite character cut.

Knowing, that something you like/used to like is in the game, is a very strong point to getting said game.
New stuff is nice, but nobody can replace the feelings you had for that one character you really liked once.

ALSO, DLC will be strictly new fighters, as mentioned before.
 

YoshiandToad

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Messages
4,924
Location
Still up Peach's dress.
#58
Whilst there's some nice perks such as Pichu, Wolf and Cloud all being able to fight in the same game, personally I'm only interested in the new.

That can mean new veteran move sets in all fairness; the Triforce trio are some of the characters I'm most interested in trying out with all their new move set tweaks.

Would still prefer more newcomers than veteran returns though. Happy for the fans of cut characters, just only a small selection of those I enjoy playing as.
 
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
647
#60
I seriously wish Pokemon Trainer hadn't returned. The game is better without transforming characters. Charizard was better as his own character. And I feel like he was only brought back to serve the "Everyone is here!" narrative rather than for the good of the actual game.

I also wish Dr. Mario, Young Link, Pichu, Lucina, Dark Pit and Daisy had just been alt costumes.
 
Last edited:

Diddy Kong

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
22,550
#61
We can discuss this all we like, Sakurai has decided that ALL veterans in fact ARE necessary. So this discussion is kinda void.
 

Burigu

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
779
#62
"How dare Sakurai put back in the game characters I dislike?"

Easy everyone is not fond of certain characters, that doesn't mean they don't have fans that are happy to see them back, I am personally happy to see :ultpichu: Pichu return, yes he is a joke character, at best he is a semiclone, and his inclusion is "innecesary" BUT there is this really good feeling of defeating your opponent using him, glad to see him back.

Also happy that nobody have to worry about their favorite not returning
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#63
And besides, if you don't like a character, just don't use them. Unless you are trying to go for 100% completion, all the characters are optional.
 
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
647
#64
I won't lie, there's a bit of OCD reasoning in my wish that Trainer and Pichu hadn't returned. Smash 4 just had this perfect spread of typings in it's choice of Pokemon. It had 6 Pokemon, covering a total of 10 types, with NO overlap in types.

Normal
Fighting
Flying

Poison
Ground
Rock
Bug
Ghost
Steel
Fire
Water

Grass
Electric
Psychic

Ice
Dragon
Dark
Fairy


If they'd added in Decidueye, that would have taken care of two more, and finished off the fully evolved starter set. But with the return of Pichu and Trainer, now we have overlap in Water and Electric. And that bothers me on some internal level.

But also I don't like clones and transformation characters, so they have that going against them as well.
 

Putuk

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 29, 2014
Messages
1,142
Location
None of your beeswax!
3DS FC
2723-9688-6533
Switch FC
SW-8387-2163-6416
#65
I won't lie, there's a bit of OCD reasoning in my wish that Trainer and Pichu hadn't returned. Smash 4 just had this perfect spread of typings in it's choice of Pokemon. It had 6 Pokemon, covering a total of 10 types, with NO overlap in types.

Normal
Fighting
Flying

Poison
Ground
Rock
Bug
Ghost
Steel
Fire
Water

Grass
Electric
Psychic

Ice
Dragon
Dark
Fairy


If they'd added in Decidueye, that would have taken care of two more, and finished off the fully evolved starter set. But with the return of Pichu and Trainer, now we have overlap in Water and Electric. And that bothers me on some internal level.

But also I don't like clones and transformation characters, so they have that going against them as well.
That's cool, but now there's a Poison type, the most important and beloved of the types, in Smash.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#66
I won't lie, there's a bit of OCD reasoning in my wish that Trainer and Pichu hadn't returned. Smash 4 just had this perfect spread of typings in it's choice of Pokemon. It had 6 Pokemon, covering a total of 10 types, with NO overlap in types.

Normal
Fighting
Flying

Poison
Ground
Rock
Bug
Ghost
Steel
Fire
Water

Grass
Electric
Psychic

Ice
Dragon
Dark
Fairy


If they'd added in Decidueye, that would have taken care of two more, and finished off the fully evolved starter set. But with the return of Pichu and Trainer, now we have overlap in Water and Electric. And that bothers me on some internal level.

But also I don't like clones and transformation characters, so they have that going against them as well.
So what if there are two Electric-types and two Water-types? I don't see how that's a problem for Super Smash Bros. Squirtle is a more iconic Pokémon than Greninja, anyway so I'm glad he's back. And I've seen people on these forums who actually like using Pichu's handycap to humiliate opponents with. And I'm glad the Pokémon Trainer was the only character with transformations because the way to get Zero Suit Samus in Brawl sucked and I needed to stay away from the Smash Ball when playing as her. The former transformation characters benefited from it's removal in Smash 4 including Charizard, but unfortunately in order for the Trainer to return, Charizard had to get back to his team. Having Leaf as an alternate costume was a great touch.
 
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
647
#67
Squirtle is a more iconic Pokémon than Greninja, anyway so I'm glad he's back.
Mmm, debatable. Especially for younger fans of the series. Kids under 10 won't even remember the days when Ash had a Squirtle.

The former transformation characters benefited from it's removal in Smash 4 including Charizard, but unfortunately in order for the Trainer to return, Charizard had to get back to his team.
Eh, they could have just made all 3 of trainer's Pokemon separate characters. They have separate numbers anyway so it wouldn't even screw up the numbering.

They could even still have trainer in the background during their matches. It's not like he does anything anyway.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#68
Mmm, debatable. Especially for younger fans of the series. Kids under 10 won't even remember the days when Ash had a Squirtle.

Eh, they could have just made all 3 of trainer's Pokemon separate characters. They have separate numbers anyway so it wouldn't even screw up the numbering.

They could even still have trainer in the background during their matches. It's not like he does anything anyway.
That was what I was thinking before they revealed "Everyone is here." I wanted Squirtle and Ivysaur as their own solo Pokémon. And I wanted switching characters to be in a separate mode where the Trainer would be in the background when someone uses a Pokémon team. Oh well, it is what it is. And they can't really say "Everyone is here" when the Pokémon Trainer is gone.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#70
*shrug* If all 3 of the Pokemon he used were still playable I'd have counted it.
Maybe. But there are people who wanted the Trainer himself and the switching mechanic back and would be outraged if he was cut in a game that says that every fighter in the history of Smash Bros would be playable. Those people would feel like they were being lied to. Though with him in, Charizard mains would have to suffer, but at least everyone who was ever playable in Smash will be playable in Ultimate.
 

DaDavid

Just Another Sword User
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
2,206
Location
Probably at work.
NNID
DaDavidEffect
Switch FC
SW-7381-1262-2246
#71
To answer the original point OP made against, it's not really fair to say that if we wanted to play the old characters we'd just play the old games. Some of these characters coming back have only been in the generally agreed upon worst game in the series.

Even from a perspective of just for fun, I don't enjoy going back to Brawl to play as Squirtle or Wolf. Even if nobody was happy that every character is back, I guarantee you that at least one person per cut character is happy to see them back specifically.

I do agree that a good chunk of the pre-release anticipation is wondering who is new and who is returning, but, in a lot of ways (at least for people like me who already pretty much have their favorite characters all in) that would have just been stressful. Wondering if my favorites were getting to stay in as opposed to looking forward to who is getting added.

They could've added 20 and cut 10, but if the 5 characters I happen to play consistently were in those 10, I'd feel way less hype on this game than if we only get 5 added with no cuts.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 23, 2014
Messages
1,359
Location
Northwest US
3DS FC
2406-5996-7869
NNID
SimonBarSinister
#72
We have every fighter that's ever been in Smash making a return. That's a major victory in itself. Of course, I say that as someone who prefers to keep characters around over a bunch of newcomers but losing a few favorites, because one never knows when a fighter they enjoy playing as does not return in a future game.

Truth be told, there are very few characters I actually want to see make their Smash debut, so I'm not worried about not getting a hefty amount of newcomers. Even if getting more new fighters is somewhat the point of a new game in the series. That's really the only downside to having every fighter in Smash return, but even then I don't consider that much of a loss.

As for the question, we probably didn't need for every fighter to return.

Is it wonderful that they did? Absolutely positively yes.
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
619
#73
Honestly, I don't see the problem with everyone returning. The only character that actually hurts another character is the Pokémon Trainer nerfing his Charizard. But at least the switching is much less forced than in Brawl. Everyone could play as the character they like playing from previous Smash games. Now the anticipation is about the newcomers. I'm glad Sakurai decided to make veterans the top priority to put in this game and got permission from all the characters owners and the Switch didn't have any hardware limitations getting in the way of a specific character. Everyone should be happy that they could play as whoever they want.
 

Xigger

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
897
Location
California
#74
The old games have their charms asides from fighters. For example:

Smash64: BOARD THE PLATFORMS!! Properly sized Corneria. Red shells. Over-the-top comic book style enthusiasm.

Melee: Wavedashing. Tournaments. Character-specific Break the Targets. Cool Adventure mode. OP Ice Climbers. Funny Bowser run. Black Hole glitch.

Brawl: The best stage builder!! Huge selection of Brawl mods! Subspace Emissary! Boss Rush! OP Meta Knight. Snake's mines (& possibly his codec calls)

Smash 4: All controllable Final Smashes, especially transformations like Giga Bowser. Smash Run on 3DS, Smash Tour on Wii U (lol). Insane Master Hand fights. Possibly custom movesets and custom stat fighters. Who knows what else might disappear?


And if you're someone who really appreciates stages, music, trophies, stickers, any of the Smash content outside of actual games, every game has so much more to offer.
 

Gallerian

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 13, 2018
Messages
59
#75
Honestly, I don't see the problem with everyone returning. The only character that actually hurts another character is the Pokémon Trainer nerfing his Charizard. But at least the switching is much less forced than in Brawl. Everyone could play as the character they like playing from previous Smash games. Now the anticipation is about the newcomers. I'm glad Sakurai decided to make veterans the top priority to put in this game and got permission from all the characters owners and the Switch didn't have any hardware limitations getting in the way of a specific character. Everyone should be happy that they could play as whoever they want.
This I agree with 100%

With everyone who was in before coming back, no one is left behind. Those people who loved those characters can have their dream matches in Ultimate. Think about it: It's a game where Mario, Megaman, Pac-Man, Sonic, Snake, Cloud, Ryu, and Bayonetta are all in the same game together OFFICIALLY. Not to mention, with better hardware and mechanics, we can have matches more epic than ever before. this isn't even including the fact that a good amount of these veterans are getting a slight makeover to make them feel more fresh and invigorating than ever before.
 

FunAtParties

Smash Master
Premium
Joined
May 21, 2015
Messages
3,739
Location
Illinois
NNID
ZestyÑ
Switch FC
SW-8404-4905-2993
#76
I see it 2 ways.

If this is Sakurai's final Smash, I think it's kinda nice. Just a nice love letter to everything he's done. It's nice.

If not, I'll be honest, I know this is an unpopular take, but I hate it. I don't care how many arguments I see for them, I don't want 3 Links, 2 Marios, a gimmick character that has 3 separate characters involved, and other meaningless clones. These are the ones I think are reasonable to not want, I have others I wouldn't mind seeing go in a blink of an eye, but I'm not trying to be a ****.

When it comes down to it, bringing back everyone will end up costing other characters opportunities, and I'd rather see more new characters get a chance than see certain vets return.

But that's just me, if people are happy about this than that's nice for them, but I can't bring myself to enjoy someone like Young Link coming back lmao.
 

DaDavid

Just Another Sword User
Writing Team
Joined
Jan 22, 2014
Messages
2,206
Location
Probably at work.
NNID
DaDavidEffect
Switch FC
SW-7381-1262-2246
#77
I don't get why only adding a couple more newcomers would be more reasonable than doubling the roster like past games. People would be disappointed if the game doesn't offer that many new characters.
Sakurai literally said that he hopes people aren't expecting too many new fighters. And has reiterated in interviews just how much effort getting every veteran back took. That would be the main two reasons.

I'm expecting probably a total of 10 new fighters, if that, and that's accounting for at least another one or two clones.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top