Do I need to study percents?

[gapw]

I'm starting to learn how to play Sheik, and I'm trying to optimize my punish game.

Studying which percentages allow which followups from which actions seems like one of the best ways to optimize my punish game. Starting off, I'm trying to figure out when ftilt can combo into fair easily and when dash attack becomes a better techchasing tool than regrabs. Eventually I think I'll start to study when getting a tech read with up smash would get the best results, if there are any good followups from up throw at certain percents, and what on earth down smash is used for. I'll also probably plan on at least getting a feel for when certain attacks start to knock down, when they pop the opponent up for a combo, etc.

But it seems like getting into percents might be a really cumbersome task. Even the things I mentioned will take a decent amount of time to figure out, and some of them will definitely require not only gruntwork but a bit of problem solving. I know that if I do start to study percents, I probably won't use a guide or anything- I know for one that figuring it out on my own will help the information stick in my head better and will also feel rewarding.

So- is studying different followups from different percentages from different actions worth the time for Sheik? And are the things I'm currently focusing on good places to begin?

 

[Leirkov]

tldr - Yes, study percents.

My take on this, is sometimes at the beginning of learning / optimizing punish game (people learn and have different views of the game), this can seem extremely tedious, but as you get deeper into understanding the game and little intricacies these will all become more apparent in their importance.

"Ftilt fair" is the simplest "duh" kill setup and at lower levels I would die to it at 30% when I started the game. I learned you can crouch cancel ftilt. Same with dash attack -> fair. That doesn't get unlocked until like 70-80% against good players. I put all of this together over a long period of time and am only still growing. So, any conscious effort into the game is definitely not wasted!

 

[gapw]

Shoot, I totally forgot to take CC into consideration. Because of CC, can Sheik basically only get an opponent off stage with one of her trademark ftilt/dash attack/anything -> fair at very high percents? And can opponents CC while being techchased (as in, would they be able to CC a dair if I got them onto a platform or a dash attack if I reacted to their tech direction or an upsmash if I read their tech direction)? This changes everything.

 

[Leirkov]

If I'm not mistaken, Falco can always CC / ASDI down + tech Sheik's dash attack until 50-60%. So yeah, it's VERY much worth looking into when moves keep an opponent grounded, and when you get knockdowns. That's just one example but it's something that happens in every matchup.

 

[Lime Cultivist]

It can't hurt to learn the percents. Like the above post says, watching for CCs at low percents is important, and maybe landing more grabs into tech chases is good if the opponent is just trying to CC everything.

 

[$alsa]

Yeah you should learn percents, especially for the Fox MU.
Because a lot of Sheiks approaches get snuffed by CC and you end up taking %70 or losing your stock.
So until x % you can't auto cancel fair or dash attack, and you're left with grab/tech chase and needles.

 

[Jmook11]

A little chart to simplify things:

FOX
Boost Grab <50%
Dash Attack >50%
F-Tilt >60%

FALCO
Boost Grab <60%
Dash Attack >60%
F-Tilt >70%


Basically at certain %'s your moves become "unlocked", and it is important to memorize these percentages because you WILL encounter high level Spacies who WILL CC your moves. Fox can CC all your moves until around 50%, and Falco can CC till 60%. A way I look at it is that Falco takes 10% more to have your moves become unlocked. Your goal in Neutral is to find a way in and Needle/Grab them to their given %'s. Other than an ocassional F-Air to put them in their place, you should only use those two moves. This is why you MUST master tech chasing because it is the safest way to unlock your kill moves!

 

[BRUJO~]

Know that there is a counter strategy to everything... in the neutral at least. That is what makes melee amazing. CC beats ftilt, but grab beats cc, but spotdodge beats grab, but waiting beats spotdodge.... This is how deep melee is when you really break it down. BUT, this rps situation disappears when you get a GRAB. Against spacies, if you have the grab already, you are at a great enough advantage that they should die if you don't mess up. If you want to optimize your punish game, I highly recommend you look into what the optimal follow ups are out of dthrow on every character, as once you have won the neutral and gotten the grab (specifically against spacies), it doesn't matter what they do. YOU are in complete control and the stock is yours if you don't make a mistake. This is not true for many other forms of "winning the neutral" such as dtilt, ftilt, dash attack, etc. but it is true for grabs. If you want to study the punish game and optimize, grabs are where you should start.

This line of thinking - I should take the stock if I don't make a mistake - only applies to certain punish situations. Actually getting the grab - winning the neutral - cannot be thought of as simply reacting and covering the option they chose. To truly optimize your gameplay as a whole, you need to be able to win the neutral with baits/conditioning/reads/etc AND extend your punishment to the fullest once you get an opening.

But since your question is strictly related to the punish game, yes I think you need to memorize percents. It is an intimidating task, but the easiest way to begin is by learning optimal follow ups out of dthrow at "low", "mid", and "high" percents and depending on "no DI" "DI behind" and "DI away" for each opposing character. Knowing the exact percentages to switch your reaction as well as your reaction to certain slight DI's just comes with time and experience.

 

[hologram summer]

Other percents worth learning (I think)

1) What percent downthrow will place fox/falco/marth/sheik/peach/falcon onto a platform on what stage so that you can continue a techchase on a platform

2) What percent you can jab reset fox/falco if they no tech

3) What percent upsmash tipper will kill on Yoshis, FoD, Pokemon

4) What percent dthrow->upair will kill peach/puff

5) What percent you can hit fox/falco with ftilt after dthrow

6) What percent dash attack pops people up too much to be able to follow up

 

[SazoonTheBoon]

Eventually I think I'll start to study when getting a tech read with up smash would get the best results, if there are any good followups from up throw at certain percents, and what on earth down smash is used for.

You don't know the uses of downsmash? Down smash is so good lol. Imo sheik has one of the top 3 downsmashes. What makes sheik's downsmash so good tho is that she has invincibility on her legs on frame 5 (also when the first hitbox comes out) which means that it can beat out a lot of moves like surprisingly peach's downsmash. Also another good thing about sheik's downsmash is that at mid-high percents it sends fast fallers at really low angles which make it easy to cover their recovery options. It's also a good option for edgeguarding as well. On top of that at mid-high percents when spacies tech in place off of a down throw you can downsmash to send them off stage (if they tech away just dash attack>fair). Another thing it does is it beats spot dodge, so if your opponent has been spot dodging your boost grab attempts, you can mix them up with downsmash and it lasts longer than the spot dodge so they'll get hit, and even if they keep shielding it instead, if you get all 3 hits on them it can be kinda awkward to punish for them making it kinda safeish. Also with perfect ac fairs they'll be -1 on shield (iirc) which means that it actually beats attempts to shield grab you. Also back to how it beats spot dodges, in tech chases if you know you reacted slowly to a tech away, often times the opponent will just spot dodge because they're predicting a grab and running dsmash will beat it. Also cc dsmash is really good too if they space poorly. Overall downsmash is soooooo good and really underrated. I kinda just rambled but this is just some stuff off of the top of my head lol sorry if it isn't super comprehensive, but I think making a thread going over the uses of downsmash would be pretty helpful.

 

[Zodiac]

Studying percents is ridiculously important for knowing when certain things work, and more importantly knowing what you can follow up with and what situations certain moves will put your opponent in at certain percents. It will take a good long while for you practice in friendlies and actually get good enough at noticing percents to act on in but it will be well worth it.