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DK should have an aerial Down B

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Chief Chili

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I think it would be great if in the next patch PMBR added an aerial down b for DK. He has one in Smash 4 so they could just take that at the very least. I admit it is pretty fun hitting people off stage with his down B and having it meteor my opponent.
 

POOB

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I agree 100%. They should at least give him SOMETHING even if it isnt that practical lol. Its pretty weird to have a button input that literally does nothing
 

Chief Chili

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Ah I forgot about Peach. Her down b is uprooting turnips right? I'm sure they could give her one too somehow.
 

TreK

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Well, that'd be a big change, but DK is PM's grappler, after all, so yeah I guess

Speaking of changes, I've been keeping a notebook for my feedback on PM 3.02 if I ever get the chance to give it and here's what I have noted about DK so far if anybody's interested :
Cargo uthrow is so overwhelmingly better than his other throws that it makes no sense using them. If we're going for a grappler archetype, you might want to do a couple things to give a makeover to his grab game and actually make it interesting :
-make cargo fthrow and bthrow faster : right now, good players who know the matchup are able to react to them consistently, making the 50/50 DI mixup worthless.
-cargo uthrow has universally guaranteed followups until almost 130% on some characters. As much as I like this move, you're never going to have a throw in DK's arsenal that is going to compete with this. A 50/50 versus guaranteed stuff, I'll take the guaranteed stuff thank you. I'd say less bkb and more kbg, making it stay the combo starter we all love but making the fthrow/bthrow mixup DK's main killmove setup instead.
-make cargo dthrow useful, somehow. Its only use at the moment is to push Snake into his own mines. It is kind of sad for PM's most iconic grappler to have a useless throw. I suggest giving it some kbg so that it could be used to set up some edgeguard situations at 70-80ish %. Although that may be a bit too good since DK already deals a lot of pain to fast fallers.
-make regular dthrow into a forced knockdown like Charizard's dthrow in example. This would tie right in with DK's tech chase game, and make him slightly more effective at dealing combos to floaties. Just make sure I can't down B people to counter every single tech option '^^
-There needs to be a difference between cargo uthrow and regular uthrow's utility. Right now uthrow is simply an inferior cargo uthrow because it doesn't have the mobility and doesn't lead into as many followups.
-bthrow is fine imo. For a kill throw, it's weak, but it starts being useful when DK can't cargo uthrow into fair anymore, stopping him from having the Marth syndrome of not being able to kill after 120%.
Other than that I think the rest of DK's tools are fairly well designed. The only other thing I dislike about him is that when I think fatty, I think tanky, but DK's extremely sub par recovery doesn't allow him to really take advantage of his weight. Really, out of all the fatties, only Dedede and arguable Charizard actually have some above average staying power. It's rare I get to three digits against a good Marth or Fox. But at least other recoveries are going to be toned down to a level that will make DK's look slightly less sub par, according to your blogposts. There needs to be a compensation for being such an easy target. Before you announced recovery nerfs, I suggested that he'd get the ability to cancel his up B mid flight by pressing shield : it wouldn't give him more distance, but more control and speed instead, making him slightly less vulnerable to snowballing. I still think you could consider that but the one risk with this change would be to allow DK to ledge stall.

/feedback
I also have some stuff about how knockback armor is a bad mechanic and should be replaced with Brawl's damage armor for intuitivity's sake, about how it makes no sense to me that reflected projectiles deal twice as much damage as perfect shield reflected projectiles, and how special hitstun states like being in the ground should have a release animation like when you get grabbed so people aren't afraid to mash anymore. And a bunch of other mechanic feedback that don't really affect DK that much.

We should do a 3.5 speculation thread, half of the other character boards have one x)
 

DK-RULES

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I have always loved the idea of down B having a barrel drop. Literally, dropping a barrel straight down like the original donkey kong days. That would be useful against super fast opponents trying to vertically knock you out. DK's downward air options are not the greatest and fox for example can so quickly jump and UAIR you and we have no good defense. Sometimes you can Dair but since it is only one foot, hard to hit.
 

Spank3d

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I have always loved the idea of down B having a barrel drop. Literally, dropping a barrel straight down like the original donkey kong days. That would be useful against super fast opponents trying to vertically knock you out. DK's downward air options are not the greatest and fox for example can so quickly jump and UAIR you and we have no good defense. Sometimes you can Dair but since it is only one foot, hard to hit.
That actually sounds pretty cool, but I think the point of not having an aerial down-B is to counteract the fact that his grounded down-B is *incredible*. I mean when you think about it, it's a guaranteed tech chase, essentially impossible to avoid if your opponent rolls (the only way to really beat it is a get up attack, which is usually a bad option since you can just shield grab it), and chains perfectly into Up-Air and Up-Tilt.

I don't really see the need for an aerial down B, although it would be very nice/give some excellent flavor, especially with the idea you proposed.
 

Strong Badam

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I have had quite a few ideas to give DK an aerial downb, but at the moment the best ideas I can think of are technical impossibilities. I'd hate to give him an aerial downb, have the fanbase become attached to it, and then potentially change it afterward. Basically, we can give him an aerial DownB, but it would need to be pretty lacking in features.
 

Spank3d

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So after playing Smash 4 on the Wii U as DK, I actually used his aerial down b to approach a few times. It's pretty cheesy, but it's an option/mixup. Maybe that's something to consider?

(His aerial down b is just him slapping the air underneath him twice)
 

Cubelarooso

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The official name of DK's Down-B is "Hand Slap." So what is a hand to slap when the ground is out of reach?
Well, how about the other hand? Conveniently, Donkey Kong had a series of games based in part on putting his hands together, with Jungle Beat in particular turning the clap into a versatile, essential ability. This idea could be translated into the perfect new aerial Down-B.


("Could be" meaning "hypothetically," not "actually possible")

Usable once per airtime (akin to tethers and Ganondorf's Dead Man's Volley), the move would have DK simply clap, creating two soundwave graphics of differing sizes and a variety of effects:
  • Coverage – The move provides a hitbox to cover his whole body, importantly his front, with disjoint. The size also allows him to block opponents trying to get past him.
  • Clanking – One of the uses in Jungle Beat is repelling certain objects, which could translate into a defense against projectiles. Could be jury rigged into blocking stronger ones while itself being weak by having its regular hitbox be transcendent, with a clankable, lower priority, higher damage hitbox inside of it.
  • Absorbing – They were able to add reflectors, so it might not be totally out of the question. While transcendent projectiles would penetrate the above, they are all (sans tranquilizers for some reason) energy-based, so this would stop them. Also PK Fire.
  • Item grabbing – Another of the uses in Jungle Beat, the main one, is grabbing bananas. Hence a cool ability would be if holding B could cause DK to pick up nearby-but-still-normally-out-of-reach items. Would be an interesting twist on it stopping projectiles, fix some wonkiness with bombs and gyros, and give the Donkey/Diddy team some synergy.
  • Momentum stalling – In JB, Donkey Kong halts in midair while grabbing bananas. This could be translated into some momentum-changing properties, which would monumentally increase DK's potential for creativity and mixups in neutral. Coincidentally, it would also make it mirror another of its uses in JB: dodging certain attacks. Like similar moves, though, if read it just makes DK a big stationary target trapped in the air.
  • Approaching – Or rather, adducting. As an extension of the banana-vacuum use in JB, it could have inward knockback, forcing campers toward DK. With set knockback and carefully balanced endlag, it could be used to draw in lighter, more troublesome characters, while heavier characters could use frame advantage to reverse it into their own approach. A windbox on the outer edges would add to this characteristic.
  • Shield damage – Another JB-use is to pop banana-containing bubbles, which might be represented by the move having some extra shield damage. Not enough to truly threaten (I imagine it dealing little regular damage, anyway), just to spook. But hey, if DK can get it to pop a shield, then it's also referencing the JB-use of stunning enemies.
  • Wall jumping – Not technically a JB-use, although it can be JB-used to create magical bouncy objects, and Jungle Beat is the game that introduced wall jumping to DK's repertoire. The idea is that, if DK is within a certain range of a wall, uses Down-B, and presses away from the wall, the endlag would be replaced by a wall jump. Would provide a slew of new options for edgeguarding and recovering, especially considering his otherwise-limited vertical distance.
Overall, I think even an incomplete version of this move would make DK a much better character, in the senses of both viability and design. It would provide a unique, skillful work-around to some of his weaknesses, and add a lot of depth not just from getting the most out of its uses, but deciding how and when to use it under the once-per-airtime constraint. Moreover, to avoid visual redundancy, his FSmash could in turn become the advancing swing-kick from DK64.
 
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Tomaster

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Wouldn't it be cool if his aerial down b was a vertical boost? Something like ZSS's... It would help when recovering as well as in combos.
 
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masterpad

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The official name of DK's Down-B is "Hand Slap." So what is a hand to slap when the ground is out of reach?
Well, how about the other hand? Conveniently, Donkey Kong had a series of games based in part on putting his hands together, with Jungle Beat in particular turning the clap into a versatile, essential ability. This idea could be translated into the perfect new aerial Down-B.


("Could be" meaning "hypothetically," not "actually possible")

Usable once per airtime (akin to tethers and Ganondorf's Dead Man's Volley), the move would have DK simply clap, creating two soundwave graphics of differing sizes and a variety of effects:
  • Coverage – The move provides a hitbox to cover his whole body, importantly his front, with disjoint. The size also allows him to block opponents trying to get past him.
  • Clanking – One of the uses in Jungle Beat is repelling certain objects, which could translate into a defense against projectiles. Could be jury rigged into blocking stronger ones while itself being weak by having its regular hitbox be transcendent, with a clankable, lower priority, higher damage hitbox inside of it.
  • Absorbing – They were able to add reflectors, so it might not be totally out of the question. While transcendent projectiles would penetrate the above, they are all (sans tranquilizers for some reason) energy-based, so this would stop them. Also PK Fire.
  • Item grabbing – Another of the uses in Jungle Beat, the main one, is grabbing bananas. Hence a cool ability would be if holding B could cause DK to pick up nearby-but-still-normally-out-of-reach items. Would be an interesting twist on it stopping projectiles, fix some wonkiness with bombs and gyros, and give the Donkey/Diddy team some synergy.
  • Momentum stalling – In JB, Donkey Kong halts in midair while grabbing bananas. This could be translated into some momentum-changing properties, which would monumentally increase DK's potential for creativity and mixups in neutral. Coincidentally, it would also make it mirror another of its uses in JB: dodging certain attacks. Like similar moves, though, if read it just makes DK a big stationary target trapped in the air.
  • Approaching – Or rather, adducting. As an extension of the banana-vacuum use in JB, it could have inward knockback, forcing campers toward DK. With set knockback and carefully balanced endlag, it could be used to draw in lighter, more troublesome characters, while heavier characters could use frame advantage to reverse it into their own approach. A windbox on the outer edges would add to this characteristic.
  • Shield damage – Another JB-use is to pop banana-containing bubbles, which might be represented by the move having some extra shield damage. Not enough to truly threaten (I imagine it dealing little regular damage, anyway), just to spook. But hey, if DK can get it to pop a shield, then it's also referencing the JB-use of stunning enemies.
  • Wall jumping – Not technically a JB-use, although it can be JB-used to create magical bouncy objects, and Jungle Beat is the game that introduced wall jumping to DK's repertoire. The idea is that, if DK is within a certain range of a wall, uses Down-B, and presses away from the wall, the endlag would be replaced by a wall jump. Would provide a slew of new options for edgeguarding and recovering, especially considering his otherwise-limited vertical distance.
Overall, I think even an incomplete version of this move would make DK a much better character, in the senses of both viability and design. It would provide a unique, skillful work-around to some of his weaknesses, and add a lot of depth not just from getting the most out of its uses, but deciding how and when to use it under the once-per-airtime constraint. Moreover, to avoid visual redundancy, his FSmash could in turn become the advancing swing-kick from DK64.
GREAT! i propose that DK claps with his feets instead of his hands :o)
I AM REALLY SERIOUS!

Wouldn't it be cool if his aerial down b was a vertical boost? Something like ZSS's... It would help when recovering as well as in combos.
interesting, but i think it will be a huge and unbalancing buff. DK recovery's game is actually fine balanced, especially with his devastating ground game , throws and finishing. He must be in huge danger when leaving the field, and it is only his vertical recovery that is weak he still have a very good horizontal recovery

AIR GRAB THAT GOES INTO CARGO STATE
I vote for this one too , it perfectly makes sense!

I think it would be great if in the next patch PMBR added an aerial down b for DK. He has one in Smash 4 so they could just take that at the very least.
I think that's what they should avoid to do by any means necessary, no need to have nintendo on OUR back trying to shut us down for something mimic from their most recent smash game.
 
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Fortune

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Fortune said:
AIR GRAB THAT GOES INTO CARGO STATE
I vote for this one too , it perfectly makes sense!
In reality, air grab that goes into cargo state would be completely broken. Cargo state is the setup to start many of DK's best combos. An air grab which is anything but very difficult to land would allow him to end a combo with an air grab, only to start a new one from cargo. You could just grab -> cargo-> up throw -> full jump -> air grab and repeat for a long time on many characters.
 

masterpad

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In reality, air grab that goes into cargo state would be completely broken. Cargo state is the setup to start many of DK's best combos. An air grab which is anything but very difficult to land would allow him to end a combo with an air grab, only to start a new one from cargo. You could just grab -> cargo-> up throw -> full jump -> air grab and repeat for a long time on many characters.
good point, and with reverse grab, dash grab and JCgrab options all ready avalaible there are enought pressure tools for DK sooooooooo lets go for the MOMBO FEET SLAP!!!
 
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