DK: from Brawl to Smash4!

[Luigi player]

Alright, there is (still) some talk about DKs changes from Brawl to Smash4, especially if he got better or worse.

Here are some comparisons I made looking through Big O's frame data threads in both the Brawl DK board and here. While also talking about a few other changes. So hopefully this gives a little more insight on what got better or worse.

Sadly I have to say DKs moves got worse overall (imo), even though some have a few better attributes to them, but you can make your own opinion by looking at the comparisons:

DK... from Brawl to Smash4.


Frame Data Changes:

(for attacks if nothing is listed it's the hitbox frames, and /x is always the endinglag (for dodges it's invincible frames), if nothing is listed it's the same; I didn't compare EVERYTHING, though (like autocancel for aerials))

Jab1: 5-7 -> 5-6
Jab2: 7-12/35 -> 6-7/34 (lost a lot of range above him)

Grab: /29 -> /30
Dashgrab: /49 -> /38 (now has more range too)
Pivotgrab: /35 -> /36

Ftilt: 8-11/33 -> 9-11/37 (lost close hit)
Utilt: same
Dtilt: 6-9 -> 7-9

Dashattack: 9-20/54 -> 10-21/48 (goes much further and doesn't just stop almost immediately, giving it more "range" and makes it a little safer, though now it can't catch spotdodges as well anymore)

Fsmash: same
Usmash: 14-16 -> 14-15
Dsmash: 10-14 -> 11-14 (lost sweetspot above him, and doesn't hit into the other direction anymore)

Nair: landinglag 15 -> 17
Fair: 25-29/59 -> 18-22/55; landinglag 30 -> 29; spike: 27-29 -> 21-22 (one less frame to spike)
Bair: landinglag 15 -> 18
Uair: 6-9 -> 6-10; landinglag 22 -> 25
Dair: 18-23 -> 14-16; landinglag 31 -> 24

Neutral B: 18, 19-22/45 (uncharged: /52) (18 = shoulderhit) -> 18-20/62 (uncharged), 19-20/47 (aerial: /62) (charged) [no shoulder hitbox, only aerial]; superarmor: 17-20 -> 11-20 (grounded) [aerial still 17-20]; bug: if you land on frames 12-17 you never get superarmor

Side B: /59 -> /63 (does much more shield damage, has a lot more range)

Down B: /29 -> /43

UpB:
Grounded: 19-56/84 -> 19, 25-58, 62/92 (19 and 62 are stronger hits); superarmor: 10-16 -> 8-17
Aerial: 4-6, 12-67/84 -> 4-6, 12-43, 44-67/92; invincibility: 4-6 -> 3-6; landinglag (perfect landing) 0(?) -> 30 (flexing pose); also immediately goes into flexing pose if you land during it

Ledge Attack (<100%): 9-16 -> 23-25; invincibility: 1-7 (could have more if done immediately from grabbing the ledge (up to 23)) -> 1-20
Ledge Attack (>100%): 38-41/69, invincibility: 1-41 (doesn't exist in Smash4 anymore)

Getup Attack (DKs back): 9-10, 20-21/51 -> 18-19, 23-24/45; invincible: 1-21 -> 1-24 (does a lot of shield damage)
Getup Attack (DKs stomach): 20-21, 24-25/59 -> 18-19, 23-24/45; invincible: 1-25 -> 1-24 (does a lot of shield damage)
Getup Attack (Trip): 19-20, 23-24/49 -> 19-20, 24-25/49; invincible: 1-8 -> 1-7 (does a lot of shield damage)

Grabs:
Dthrow: lost dthrow combo (low % into ftilt/dtilt(trip->downB)) and dthrow chaingrab on moving platforms
Fthrow/Cargo:
Ftoss: 13/39 -> 15/45 (much harder to stagespike because angle is more upwards)
Btoss: 15/39 -> 16/42 (much harder to stagespike because angle is more upwards)
Utoss: 14/29 -> 15/29 (now has true combos against most characters into uair)
Dtoss: 16/39 -> 17/44 (throws at a worse angle / is more DI-able?)

Dodges: (got changes for all characters in Smash4)
Spotdodge: 2-23/30 -> 4-20/28
Rolldodges: 4-19/31 -> 4-18/29
Airdodge: 4-29/49 -> 4-29/34


Other changes:

+ got a lot more of invincible parts on his arms during his attacks to be more disjointed
+ some custom moves help DK a lot
+ now has an aerial version of Down B (though it's not really useful)
- overall less range for his attacks
- he can't charge his Giant Punch with one wind up anymore, making charging while you have a bit of time less useful
- "bug"?/bad mechanic: DK winds up one extra time even though his punch is already full
- harder time landing from juggles because: airdodge-landinglag, aerial upB flexing pose-lag
- his +10 frame advantage from a ground break (out of a grab) is gone
- burried opponents (from Side B) have like halfed knockback, which makes the rewards much worse so the Sakurai combo (sideB to giant punch) lost its touch
- lost his mostly safe ledgegame
- "oversight": if your giant punch gets shielded while your back is to an edge you fall off (and SD)
- he feels overall weaker, especially dsmash and fsmash



As you can see, DK go quite some buffs and nerfs. Which ones are more meaningful? Well, that might change depending on opinion / experience, but you can discuss that here if you want.

The worst things imo are his ftilt, giant punch (less hitbox frames and no SA if you land on wrong frames), dsmash sweetspot, generally less range and upB nerfs, while also having no safe landing because of airdodge landinglag.

Great buffs are: SideB range and shielddamage, more disjointed moves so he doesn't always trade / lose to attacks, faster fair, Uair (the one frame really helps a lot more than one might think), grounded UpB being less SDI-able and having stronger hits, and customs I guess if you play with them legal.


Of course there's more but I just wanted to sum some up I guess. Overall I think DK got worse, because of the huge advantages he had with his ftilt range/less endlag, safer downB, better landings, dsmash sweetspot... his buffs definitely help him though and are pretty nice. I still hope they'll buff him more again in the next patch, he definitely needs it (that is not to say that he is that bad, he's still a somewhat decent character (like low middle, or high low), imo).
Though I think with his great range nerfed in Smash4 it'll be difficult to make him feel as awesome as he was in Brawl. But who knows what they could come up with as buffs that could make him amazing again. :]

 

[Thinktron]

Dk overall is a lot weaker, it feels out of character for him when characters like falco and falcon now hit harder or as hard as he does. Though i do like some of the changes made to his play style, such as his New grounded kongcopter's resistance and his aerial hand slap. I feel as though Dk is just meant to stay below mid tier for all eternity.

When it comes to customs, i dont use them for any character, i simply don't like them.. Though more often than not a custom-ed Dk is considered one of the best characters in the game ( i dont see it though).

If Dk was going to be buffed, i want him to deal more shield damage with Kongcopter, less endlag on ground slap, and more damage on his up and down tilt.

 

[Brickbox]

I don't know, I just don't agree with try to find out whether or not he is weaker or stronger....both games are so different and it makes answering this question completely based on opinion and perception.

But since we are talking about it I will say that I feel like DK is better in smash 4.
His move data is not better but the engine makes him better because his match ups against top tiers are not as bad as they were in brawl. (as well as the possibility for customs)
I think people forget about the ability to camp out dk in brawl, not to mention chain grabs and combos on him.

With

• customs being legal still up for decision
  
• not knowing if DK will get more patches
  
• trying to compare a character in two different game engines
• the meta game of smash 4 still evolving

I say we won't come to an agreement anytime soon on this.
I think time spent advancing the DK meta-game is more useful than finding out which DK is better
but that just my opinion.

Edit whoops I though this was thinktrons thread because I was just looking at that xD oh well they are related

 

[DK-RULES]

If I look at this from a perspective that all characters are potentially equal (no tier lists), then I would say DK still needs buffs for sure. His cargo throws need to be reverted to brawl style so follow ups can be better achieved. Cargo up throw can be followed up only with generally low presents while a Diddy King can follow up into much later percents. So one character should not so effective low to high percents while donkey kong is only effective at low.
Just one example of course but you can get the idea.
I definitely got more kills in brawl or PM with DK with follow up combos. Yes, the engine is different, but I would say based on my play style, I was better in brawl with DK than in smash 4. Smash 4 has forced my play style with DK to change to be more like all the other characters while in brawl, I enjoyed that his strategy was different with more rewards for grabs. Just my opinions.