DJC IS BACK!...Kinda...

[jkshoujk]

Well, I was playing Ness today and I found that you CAN still djc (Double Jump Cancel) but only with one move... his PK Fire. And it doesn't seem to be to useful...... At the moment, I'm using it just for looks. For those who don't know how to do it, jump twice really fast and then use side+b. I find it easier to use my index finger to press the y button twice and then use side+b, which is what I did in melee to DJC with mewtwo and ness.

 

[Mercury]

i don't think anyone even really gives a **** about ATs anymore. let the ****ing **** rest until you find something that is clearly useful, jesus christ.

 

[jkshoujk]

Act like that and I won't consider finding anything useful for you . Plus I'm pretty sure people care about AT's seeing how many people are just creating random things for fame( *cough* Z-walk). This is the same thing as Silent Wolf's Zelghandi, things to mess around and show off with... 'cept this doesn't take nearly as much skill lol...

P.S: I'm not interested in finding out AT's, this just happened.

 

[Zombieoficer]

Everyone should obviously listen to Mercury, since he swears the most.

 

[metroid1117]

i don't think anyone even really gives a **** about ATs anymore. let the ****ing **** rest until you find something that is clearly useful, jesus christ.

Advanced techniques help take the game to another level. Why would we NOT care about them? Also, new things take time to develop into techniques - people (including Ken) didn't wavedash when it was first discovered because they thought it was too tedious to do, but if you look at Melee videos now EVERYONE (except Aniki and Peach/Zelda players) does it.

With regard to this technique, this could be useful in baiting someone who's expecting you to come up at Ness' double jump height - DJC PK fire, then land and punish them for attacking somewhere above you.

 

[djc89]

You called? (-.-)

 

[kamekasu]

i don't think anyone even really gives a **** about ATs anymore. let the ****ing **** rest until you find something that is clearly useful, jesus christ.

Maybe you don't understand that Ness' entire metagame in Melee was based around his ability to DJC. Without DJC, he loses nearly all of his combo potential. It would be an incredible discovery to find a legitimate way to DJC in Brawl. PK Fire, however, doesn't count.

 

[Yuna]

Shouldn't you have posted this in the Ness-specific section? Seriously, we get at least 5 threads a week that in here that should've been posted in there.

 

[kamekasu]

Shouldn't you have posted this in the Ness-specific section? Seriously, we get at least 5 threads a week that in here that should've been posted in there.

Maybe he assumed similar tactics could be applied to DJC with Yoshi and Lucas.

 

[Galeon]

well its kind of the opposite for lucas. instead of stopping his second jump, it more than doubles the height of it. so I think Ness is on his own here.

 

[Ademisk]

I can only thank whatever Deity cares about me that you didn't post this on the Ness boards.

 

[ArchangelRaziel]

i don't think anyone even really gives a **** about ATs anymore. let the ****ing **** rest until you find something that is clearly useful, jesus christ.

Just remember everyone: People didn't learn and utilize ATs in Melee - even the mighty wavedash, until quite a while after the game was released. Be patient with ATs, they'll appear.

For those who doubt: Nearly every game in history had some form of glitch or another. This became far more common in fighter games, and even more common still in games with any form of physics engine.
Furthermore, it is 100% cost prohibitive for a company to put in the sheer man-hours to completely debug a game - They'd never make a profit once they release the game if they did. Gamers, however, have far greater numbers, and far more potential man-hours to search. 50 men have 1 year to hide they're mistakes (which yes, a lot of times they do, because fixing one bug in a game often creates 3 more), 1 million gamers have 2,3,4+ years to find them.


MORAL: Don't be so impatient. ^_^;

 

[Yuna]

Just remember everyone: People didn't learn and utilize ATs in Melee - even the mighty wavedash, until quite a while after the game was released. Be patient with ATs, they'll appear.

...And stuff...

Stop using this inane argument.

You know what, 10 years ago, a breakthrough in medicine would take a lot longer for the medical community to work through. Today, breakthroughs in medicine made 10 years ago can be processed much faster.

Why? Because we live and learn.

When Melee first came out, the community was n00bish. N64 wasn't really that technical, it didn't have a lot of ATs and no one was actively looking for ATs. Even as the years went by, very few people went around specifically looking for ATs and stuff.

The community was also tiny, only a fraction of what it is today. And did I mention they were n00bs (didn't know what to look for when looking for ATs) and that they didn't actually try to look ATs up?

Never mind the fact that Sakurai has said it himself:
Brawl is a "dumbed down" version of Melee. Everything is more intuitive ("obvious upon first play through"). He wouldn't put in some kind of random ATs not even the collective testings of Smashboards could find. So any ATs we find from now on will be glitches of some kind.

We've been actively picking the game apart for ATs for close to two months now. The collective forces of Smashboards' Smash-hardened testers who know how to look for ATs. And we haven't found that many new ones that weren't obvious glitches. And even then, we haven't really found that many useful ones, anyway.

Stop using the "7+ years ago, we were pretty inefficient!"-card. How good were you at math at age 5?

 

[garbage]

i don't think anyone even really gives a **** about ATs anymore. let the ****ing **** rest until you find something that is clearly useful, jesus christ.

You're a freaking genius.

 

[Metzger]

It's true that we probably will not find many, if any new "ATs" that were actually intended.

That said, a lot of the most useful techs tend to be "glitches", and it will take a good while before we really get most of those discovered. Wavedashing was one such thing and it changed the meta of Melee completely.

Brawl isn't close to being fully figured out yet. Even if Brawl was intentionally "dumbed down" from Melee, that doesn't mean those kind of unintentional bugs don't exist that will have the same effect, and people should still be actively searching for them.

 

[Earthbound360]

Not just PK fire, but all his specials.
PK fire may have some use, but I doubt the others will. I do use it with PK flash just for coolness sometimes since its better to use in the air since it takes longer to detonate in brawl than in melee.

 

[Yuna]

That said, a lot of the most useful techs tend to be "glitches", and it will take a good while before we really get most of those discovered. Wavedashing was one such thing and it changed the meta of Melee completely.

Name 3.

Unintended result =/= Glitch

Wavedashing was just 3 different things working together. You can do all of the 3 things separately and yield part of the effects of wavedashing. Do them all at the same time and you get wavedashing.

 

[Eff_Soul]

lol i already do it,and its pretty dope every once in a while,especially if someone is expecting a average sh Aerial and you go to Pk Fire.This move can be both offensive and Defensive.

 

[Metzger]

Name 3.

Unintended result =/= Glitch

Wavedashing was just 3 different things working together. You can do all of the 3 things separately and yield part of the effects of wavedashing. Do them all at the same time and you get wavedashing.

Actually, an unintended result is the very definition of a bug. It was the combination of the three actions producing an unintended result.

 

[Wave⁂]

WAVEDASHING is NOT a bug. Nor is a glitch. It is a "trick." The developers were aware of it's existence while Melee was in developing; it even has an "official" name.

EDIT: Actually, depending on your definition of "trick," wavedashing might just be a technique, not a glitch/bug/trick.

 

[Mama]

Stop using this inane argument.

You know what, 10 years ago, a breakthrough in medicine would take a lot longer for the medical community to work through. Today, breakthroughs in medicine made 10 years ago can be processed much faster.

Why? Because we live and learn.

When Melee first came out, the community was n00bish. N64 wasn't really that technical, it didn't have a lot of ATs and no one was actively looking for ATs. Even as the years went by, very few people went around specifically looking for ATs and stuff.

The community was also tiny, only a fraction of what it is today. And did I mention they were n00bs (didn't know what to look for when looking for ATs) and that they didn't actually try to look ATs up?

Never mind the fact that Sakurai has said it himself:
Brawl is a "dumbed down" version of Melee. Everything is more intuitive ("obvious upon first play through"). He wouldn't put in some kind of random ATs not even the collective testings of Smashboards could find. So any ATs we find from now on will be glitches of some kind.

We've been actively picking the game apart for ATs for close to two months now. The collective forces of Smashboards' Smash-hardened testers who know how to look for ATs. And we haven't found that many new ones that weren't obvious glitches. And even then, we haven't really found that many useful ones, anyway.

Stop using the "7+ years ago, we were pretty inefficient!"-card. How good were you at math at age 5?

Well stop countering that argument with "The community was noobish now its not" stuff. Because like it or not, people are noobs in Brawl. They don't know what they're looking for when they're looking for "ATs". Sure it'll take less time. But you act as if the community is so large and so much smarter that the findings that took 4 or 5 years to learn of in Brawl would only take a month now. Thats idiotic.

And it doesn't matter how efficient you are at something if you learn something accidentally.

Bottom line, if you honestly think that "picking apart" the game for two months then thats just stupid and pretty ignorant. Who are you to say the people looking know how to look when they don't even know this game? Honestly, you need to think about the counters to your own argument when you post rather than post and think your argument is perfect.

On topic, this sounds useless.

 

[Ademisk]

.......why....why oh god do you hate me!?!?! Come on! This topic deserves to be locked! Not moved!

 

[Kirby Gotenks absorbed]

What is DJC? I play SSBM a lot but I don't know what people mean.

 

[Metzger]

WAVEDASHING is NOT a bug. Nor is a glitch. It is a "trick." The developers were aware of it's existence while Melee was in developing; it even has an "official" name.

EDIT: Actually, depending on your definition of "trick," wavedashing might just be a technique, not a glitch/bug/trick.

So what is wavedashing's "official" name, then? I've never seen it printed or listed in any documents or statements provided by the developer.

Either way, it makes no difference whether they became aware of it during development. The question put forth was "is it an intentional or unintentional result of these actions", and the answer is unintentional.

Developers sit on bugs all the time. Hell, we've seen whole games come out of the result of bugs before (Devil May Cry is one such game). They also ship games with known bugs that have a negative impact on the game. Whether or not the result is seen as beneficial or damaging, it's still a bug, and players will still utilize them (both good and bad) all the same.

The part that really matters is whether "techniques" like wavedashing that are a result of unexpected behaviors on the part of the players will be found in Brawl. Given that it is using the licensed Havok engine, and what we've seen so far with things like Mario's cape, I think it's pretty likely that they will surface as time goes on.

 

[Ademisk]

Double. Jump. Cancel. Its when you cancel your second jump with an aerial, used especially to do very fast, low, attacks.

 

[jkshoujk]

Uh...

I kind of agree with Ademisk now... seeing that everyone kinda kicked the "DJC IS BACK" boat out into the ocean of "LOLARGUE" I think this should be locked...

 

[Ademisk]

No offense, but this has been known...for a very very very long time. B moves cancel the second jump, it's nothing like a DjC. The topic should be locked, or at the very least completely ignored simply because of the fact that the topic isn't useful at all. We have other threads discussing the uses of this, one of which mistook it for zap jumping....T_T.

 

[Wave⁂]

So what is wavedashing's "official" name, then? I've never seen it printed or listed in any documents or statements provided by the developer.

Either way, it makes no difference whether they became aware of it during development. The question put forth was "is it an intentional or unintentional result of these actions", and the answer is unintentional.

Developers sit on bugs all the time. Hell, we've seen whole games come out of the result of bugs before (Devil May Cry is one such game). They also ship games with known bugs that have a negative impact on the game. Whether or not the result is seen as beneficial or damaging, it's still a bug, and players will still utilize them (both good and bad) all the same.

The part that really matters is whether "techniques" like wavedashing that are a result of unexpected behaviors on the part of the players will be found in Brawl. Given that it is using the licensed Havok engine, and what we've seen so far with things like Mario's cape, I think it's pretty likely that they will surface as time goes on.

You know what Debug Mode is? It is a hidden mode in Melee only accessible through Action Replay, a hacking device. With Debug Mode, you can do what the developers did to test the game: see frame-by-frame speed, collision bubbles, hitboxes, spawn spots, blastzones, etc. Now, one of the features that comes with the frame-by-frame feature is that it chws how long the attack has lasted, who perform it, and the "name." Some names are as vague a "ATTACK 13" for, say, a nair (I'm 90% sure it's not a nair, just an example). Some are as specific as "ROLL ENDING" for the ending animation of a roll. Well, it turns out wavedashing's name was "LAND FALL SPECIAL"; people who made such vids as Perfect Control (SuperDoodleMan is awesome) discovered it.

So there you go. If you want to see Perfect Control or its sequel, look on YouTube.

 

[Metzger]

I'll take a look at it. Was that the name displayed for the animation of touching the ground, though? Because the real impact of "wavedashing" as it was actually used has nothing to do with the animation, only the physics as they are calculated (or more specifically how the friction implementation is altered). If that is really the case then I imagine that has more to do with implementing custom animations for different landings than it does the technique and how it was used for movement.

 

[Quarter]

sounds like useless information that people already knew about if they ever did an aerial with ness.

 

[Kirby Gotenks absorbed]

No offense, but this has been known...for a very very very long time. B moves cancel the second jump, it's nothing like a DjC. The topic should be locked, or at the very least completely ignored simply because of the fact that the topic isn't useful at all. We have other threads discussing the uses of this, one of which mistook it for zap jumping....T_T.

instead of doing a DJC why not do a short jump?

 

[N355]

I'm almost positive this works with pkt as well, which is probably less useful than pkf

 

[Ademisk]

It doesn't, not like Melee at least, in Melee, you floated a small distance which increased either your PKTs range, or its speed.

Also, you don't short hop it most of the time because the small extra distance makes it harder for people to judge where the PK Fire will land. It's been a tactic since forever.