Jotari
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2015
- Messages
- 438
Gearlt from the Witcher came up in the "Could they work for Smash" thread and I mentioned this general idea. I'm not sure how much this has been discussed on Smash Boards, but it's something I have got into debates about before. I'm sure it probably has been discussed, but I don't see it in any recent threads so...
It is my opinion that there is no hard rule against characters who originated from outside of video games from getting into Smash. Sakurai might have said that, but he's allegedly said stuff like non combat characters like Villagers and Nintendo only characters in the past. And, while I don't think there's a hard rule, I think there is a soft rule. Because if there's a hard rule, well, then it's already been violated by a number of characters.
First, we have the Pokemon characters. Yes, the series started out as a video game, but it is a multimedia franchise now. The anime makes a tonne of money and is one of the foremost elements of the intellectual properties. And there are Pokemon that have appeared in the anime and their movies before they made a debut in any video game material. Most noticeably Lucario who had a focus movie before his video game debut. Lucario is, technically, a movie character.
So that's what I mean by not a hard rule. But that's still within the confines of the more nebulous sphere of a soft rule. But we have more extreme examples than Lucario. My next character to talk about is Dracula. A literary character. First and foremost a literary character. Everyone knows who Dracula is and he is not primarily associated with video games, yet he is in Smash as a boss. Aha, but he is the Castlevannia version of Dracula you say!...but that doesn't actually help any arguments in this manner as pretty much every character has appeared in a video game at some point. That means a video game version of Mickey Mouse, like from Epic Mickey or Kingdom Hearts is not unprecedented, and Dracula as a character is not much older than Mickey Mouse. One is 94 years old and the other 125. And, you know, Mickey Mouse's image is in Smash already in the form of Sora's Keyblade chain. Obviously Nintendo and Disney didn't want to hash out the legal difficulties of putting a Mickey or Donald spirit in Smash, but it's not because of some kind of hard rule series bible for the game. If they wanted it to happen, it would have happened.
Next character to mention is a real person. Yeah, there is a real person in Smash. I'll give you a second to think who...Okay, I can't give you a second because it's like a video, just a bunch of text. But the answer is Dr Ruyta Kawashima who appears as an assist trophy. Again, a video game incarnation of a real person, but a character who very much did not originate in a video game. This means there is precedent for Mahatma Gandhi to be in Smash, based off of his appearance in Cid Meyr's Civilization. More realistically, that's precedent for Mike Tyson as another Punch Out character.
The last thing to mention is the Super Smash Bros. series that did originated outside of Smash. This is something only fans of the series would actually know, as it is for all practical intents and purposes a video game series. It has over 50 titles and has been released on practically every video game console around since it started in the late 80s. Yet it all started with a series of novels. A series of novels that kept on getting published alongside the games until 1996. If you haven't figured out which series I'm talking about yet, it's the MegaTen franchise, which Persona, the series Joker originates from, falls under. Joker is not a literary character, but he's not a literary character in the same way Lucario is not a video game character. Lucario is a character who technically originated in a movie, for a multimedia franchise that began in videogames. Joker is a character who technically originated in a video game, for a multimedia franchise that began in light novels.
So what is the unifying idea here? Joke and Lucario both, obviously, belong in Smash Bros. No one is going question their inclusion on the grounds of having insufficient credentials. And that's my main point, we are not going to see the likes of Iron Man or Shrek in Smash Bros, but it's not on a technicality. There is no technicality, as there is no rule that needs to be followed. The developers will do what they want. Any rule was broken in Brawl when they included characters outside of their legal scope. If they want to put a character in, the character's origin will not dissuade them. The only rule for Smash is "Would it be good in Smash?"
In 1999 Nintendo had a poll to see what characters would be popular to add to Melee. This was a write in poll similar to the Smash Ballot, only way less people participated. Number 6 on this poll, behind Bowser, Peach, Wario, King Dedede and Ganondorf; tied with Mewtwo and ahead of Marth, is the character of James Bond, originally created by Ian Fleming as a literary character and made massively popular by the film franchise. For people not around in the 90s this might seem super weird. Why did people want James Bond in Smash Bros.? That's because in 1997 the liscenced video game Golden Eye was released, and it was one hell of a game. One of the first Fires Person Shooters around and imo, still one of the best. But you know what's really weird? You know what makes it really normal to have voted for James Bond on that poll? Something from the 1995 James Bond movie Golden Eye was already in Smash Bros at the release of the first game. That being the Proximity Mine. I'm pretty sure they did not have the rights to use this item as it was quickly redesigned after the first game (though somehow still retaining the Smash 64 design outside of Japan in Melee with the origin of the item being labelled TOP SECRET), but the original design for this item is identical to the Proximity Mines used in the Golden Eye movie and made infamous by the game. Smash obviously has real world items like Baseball Bats and Fans in it, but this isn't the case of a real world item, it's a prop from a movie that, as far as I know, is not used for any actual real life weapons (and if it were, that would probably be under copyright they didn't use too). What matters is that the developers wanted to put this popular item into Smash, where it would function well, and they did, though they possibly shouldn't due to copy right, but no one ever noticed, or if it was noticed it was quietly taken care of. There was no rule, aside from possibly copyright, that prevented them from doing this.
So that brings me back to Gearalt. I have not played the Witcher. I have not read the books or seen the TV Show. I have no personal attachment to this character. But could he be in Smash? Hell, yeah, why not. He would fit the setting and his video games were super popular. I don't think popular enough to make it likely, and I don't know what his legal stance will be but the only question that matters is "Would it be good in Smash?"
Smash is not going to put some random character into the game that has a huge level of popularity. No matter how popular Game of Thrones is, they're not going to toss John Snow in. The demographic overlap for one has no certain basis of overlap and it just wouldn't work well on a stylistic level. But if a video game adaption is released and proves super possible like Golden Eye? If the adaption spawns sequels over the course of years that run parallel or even outstrip the original material like Shin Megami Tensei or Parasite Eve? If it's a multimedia franchise with games that are a popular arm of it, then really, why not? You can bet Pokemon would still be there even if Satoshii Tajiri had written a pokemon book five years before creating the games. There is tonnes of precedent for content originating outside of video games in Smash already. The only troubles are legal troubles and Smash has proven they can negotiate characters that seem impossible legally speaking before. Where the character originated from is not the issue. It's how popular the character is with a certain demograph overlap with Smash and how well they'd fit into Smash stylistically and mechanically that matters.
It is my opinion that there is no hard rule against characters who originated from outside of video games from getting into Smash. Sakurai might have said that, but he's allegedly said stuff like non combat characters like Villagers and Nintendo only characters in the past. And, while I don't think there's a hard rule, I think there is a soft rule. Because if there's a hard rule, well, then it's already been violated by a number of characters.
First, we have the Pokemon characters. Yes, the series started out as a video game, but it is a multimedia franchise now. The anime makes a tonne of money and is one of the foremost elements of the intellectual properties. And there are Pokemon that have appeared in the anime and their movies before they made a debut in any video game material. Most noticeably Lucario who had a focus movie before his video game debut. Lucario is, technically, a movie character.
So that's what I mean by not a hard rule. But that's still within the confines of the more nebulous sphere of a soft rule. But we have more extreme examples than Lucario. My next character to talk about is Dracula. A literary character. First and foremost a literary character. Everyone knows who Dracula is and he is not primarily associated with video games, yet he is in Smash as a boss. Aha, but he is the Castlevannia version of Dracula you say!...but that doesn't actually help any arguments in this manner as pretty much every character has appeared in a video game at some point. That means a video game version of Mickey Mouse, like from Epic Mickey or Kingdom Hearts is not unprecedented, and Dracula as a character is not much older than Mickey Mouse. One is 94 years old and the other 125. And, you know, Mickey Mouse's image is in Smash already in the form of Sora's Keyblade chain. Obviously Nintendo and Disney didn't want to hash out the legal difficulties of putting a Mickey or Donald spirit in Smash, but it's not because of some kind of hard rule series bible for the game. If they wanted it to happen, it would have happened.
Next character to mention is a real person. Yeah, there is a real person in Smash. I'll give you a second to think who...Okay, I can't give you a second because it's like a video, just a bunch of text. But the answer is Dr Ruyta Kawashima who appears as an assist trophy. Again, a video game incarnation of a real person, but a character who very much did not originate in a video game. This means there is precedent for Mahatma Gandhi to be in Smash, based off of his appearance in Cid Meyr's Civilization. More realistically, that's precedent for Mike Tyson as another Punch Out character.
The last thing to mention is the Super Smash Bros. series that did originated outside of Smash. This is something only fans of the series would actually know, as it is for all practical intents and purposes a video game series. It has over 50 titles and has been released on practically every video game console around since it started in the late 80s. Yet it all started with a series of novels. A series of novels that kept on getting published alongside the games until 1996. If you haven't figured out which series I'm talking about yet, it's the MegaTen franchise, which Persona, the series Joker originates from, falls under. Joker is not a literary character, but he's not a literary character in the same way Lucario is not a video game character. Lucario is a character who technically originated in a movie, for a multimedia franchise that began in videogames. Joker is a character who technically originated in a video game, for a multimedia franchise that began in light novels.
So what is the unifying idea here? Joke and Lucario both, obviously, belong in Smash Bros. No one is going question their inclusion on the grounds of having insufficient credentials. And that's my main point, we are not going to see the likes of Iron Man or Shrek in Smash Bros, but it's not on a technicality. There is no technicality, as there is no rule that needs to be followed. The developers will do what they want. Any rule was broken in Brawl when they included characters outside of their legal scope. If they want to put a character in, the character's origin will not dissuade them. The only rule for Smash is "Would it be good in Smash?"
In 1999 Nintendo had a poll to see what characters would be popular to add to Melee. This was a write in poll similar to the Smash Ballot, only way less people participated. Number 6 on this poll, behind Bowser, Peach, Wario, King Dedede and Ganondorf; tied with Mewtwo and ahead of Marth, is the character of James Bond, originally created by Ian Fleming as a literary character and made massively popular by the film franchise. For people not around in the 90s this might seem super weird. Why did people want James Bond in Smash Bros.? That's because in 1997 the liscenced video game Golden Eye was released, and it was one hell of a game. One of the first Fires Person Shooters around and imo, still one of the best. But you know what's really weird? You know what makes it really normal to have voted for James Bond on that poll? Something from the 1995 James Bond movie Golden Eye was already in Smash Bros at the release of the first game. That being the Proximity Mine. I'm pretty sure they did not have the rights to use this item as it was quickly redesigned after the first game (though somehow still retaining the Smash 64 design outside of Japan in Melee with the origin of the item being labelled TOP SECRET), but the original design for this item is identical to the Proximity Mines used in the Golden Eye movie and made infamous by the game. Smash obviously has real world items like Baseball Bats and Fans in it, but this isn't the case of a real world item, it's a prop from a movie that, as far as I know, is not used for any actual real life weapons (and if it were, that would probably be under copyright they didn't use too). What matters is that the developers wanted to put this popular item into Smash, where it would function well, and they did, though they possibly shouldn't due to copy right, but no one ever noticed, or if it was noticed it was quietly taken care of. There was no rule, aside from possibly copyright, that prevented them from doing this.
So that brings me back to Gearalt. I have not played the Witcher. I have not read the books or seen the TV Show. I have no personal attachment to this character. But could he be in Smash? Hell, yeah, why not. He would fit the setting and his video games were super popular. I don't think popular enough to make it likely, and I don't know what his legal stance will be but the only question that matters is "Would it be good in Smash?"
Smash is not going to put some random character into the game that has a huge level of popularity. No matter how popular Game of Thrones is, they're not going to toss John Snow in. The demographic overlap for one has no certain basis of overlap and it just wouldn't work well on a stylistic level. But if a video game adaption is released and proves super possible like Golden Eye? If the adaption spawns sequels over the course of years that run parallel or even outstrip the original material like Shin Megami Tensei or Parasite Eve? If it's a multimedia franchise with games that are a popular arm of it, then really, why not? You can bet Pokemon would still be there even if Satoshii Tajiri had written a pokemon book five years before creating the games. There is tonnes of precedent for content originating outside of video games in Smash already. The only troubles are legal troubles and Smash has proven they can negotiate characters that seem impossible legally speaking before. Where the character originated from is not the issue. It's how popular the character is with a certain demograph overlap with Smash and how well they'd fit into Smash stylistically and mechanically that matters.
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