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Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimate

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Grayson

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So here’s a question. I know that in Smash 4 Omegas weren’t used because they had different proportions than the actual FD.

Assuming that what Sakurai said holds true and that every Omega and Battlefield version of stage has the exact same proportions and blast zones of FD and BF respectively, will people actually use the Omega and BF version of the stages?

When it was announced back in Smash 4 that there would be FD versions of every stage I was hoping that meant that people would choose the different versions for some more visual variety.

Looking at discussion, there’s a lot of talk about not using certain stages due to redundancy, and I’m worried that means people won’t bother using the Omega and BF versions of the stages in Ultimate.
 

Zerp

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So here’s a question. I know that in Smash 4 Omegas weren’t used because they had different proportions than the actual FD.

Assuming that what Sakurai said holds true and that every Omega and Battlefield version of stage has the exact same proportions and blast zones of FD and BF respectively, will people actually use the Omega and BF version of the stages?

When it was announced back in Smash 4 that there would be FD versions of every stage I was hoping that meant that people would choose the different versions for some more visual variety.

Looking at discussion, there’s a lot of talk about not using certain stages due to redundancy, and I’m worried that means people won’t bother using the Omega and BF versions of the stages in Ultimate.
I think the only thing we'd have to worry about is the whole copyright thing again, I could have sworn there were copyright issues with the music on certain stages like Gaur Plains when streams broadcasted matches there. Although, yeah, getting as much variety as we can with the omega and battlefield variants would be great if they really are all the same, we shouldn't have to limit our choices to just three of them this time lol
 

ParanoidDrone

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There might be legal issues with the music on certain Omegas (Mother and Sonic being the main series that come to mind...maybe Final Fantasy too?) but I wonder if it would be feasible to just tape a piece of paper to streaming setups listing the relevant stages in large bold print and an admonishment not to pick any of them on that specific setup.
 
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Grayson

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If the music is the issue why not just mute the music in the My Music settings?
 

nutbutter

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im so hype and we still dont know everything about hazers off so there may be more stages
 

Narr

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new idea that I want to get opinions on: we have premade rulesets, so what if, in order to make hazard toggle work on a stage-by-stage basis, we make one premade ruleset with hazard toggle ON and say, an 8 minute timer. then, the ruleset with hazard toggle off has a 7 minute timer, so players can instantly recognize if they've accidentally forgotten to change the rules.
 

Frihetsanka

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I think it goes without saying that we should be using as much of the games content as possible and keeping the stagelist beneath 10 for no reason besides "we've always done it" and "this is what pros want" really makes us look like we hate fun and variety and leaving our boxes. Maybe that's true, but even if it is this is our opportunity to change it. Why not take the chance? People like AA and DeLux and more I'm not familiar with have given us tons of workable rulesets and those arguing against still say "nuh-uh". Why?
False, people don't make arguments like this. People have spent a lot of time discussing various rulesets and why some are preferable over others, creating and attacking a strawman just helps split the community even more.

Your post is kind of saying very little, yet you get a lot of likes. It basically reads as you are "bashing" the TOs and other players who are working hard to create a fair and balanced ruleset and who made counter-arguments against the various ideas brought forth. I'm starting to lose faith in this thread, since so many players seem to cling on to a ruleset that very few people outside of Reddit or Smashboards seem to want.

Frihetsanka Frihetsanka how does 7 stages grant the second player the larger advantage?
https://pastebin.com/Yz287KAa (Note: I didn't create this pastebin)
 

Frihetsanka

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Regarding the Battlefield/Omega skin discussion: Assuming Battlefield/Omegas are exactly like Battlefield and Final Destination, letting people pick any skin they want seems fine to me. More varied music and more visual variety would be good for spectators, and if the stages don't change it doesn't really hurt the players either (I imagine ZeRo might want to play on Gaur Plain, for instance).

new idea that I want to get opinions on: we have premade rulesets, so what if, in order to make hazard toggle work on a stage-by-stage basis, we make one premade ruleset with hazard toggle ON and say, an 8 minute timer. then, the ruleset with hazard toggle off has a 7 minute timer, so players can instantly recognize if they've accidentally forgotten to change the rules.
This idea has been discussed quite a bit in the PGStats Discord. The conclusion is that premade rulesets wouldn't help enough to be worth it.

If the music is the issue why not just mute the music in the My Music settings?
Personally, I don't really mind if streams have the music muted (then I can easily watch the set while listening to whatever music I want), but I'm guessing many who want Betas/Omegas is because they want to hear the music from those stages. Still, I wouldn't mind if they muted the music for streams.
 

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This idea has been discussed quite a bit in the PGStats Discord. The conclusion is that premade rulesets wouldn't help enough to be worth it.
they would help though, the different timers would make it really hard to mess up and accidentally play on a bad stage. you'd have to miss the indicator on the stage select screen and then miss the different number on the top of the screen when the match starts; both players would have to be paying zero attention to end up on a bad stage.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Keep the rules for banning simple. Can we just accept the reality that banning a tri-plat is effectively a wasted ban? Since both players know the stage before selecting fighters, it's up to the player to switch fighters to handle the stage. We don't need to invent some magical method for allowing players to ban all tri-plats in a single action.
 

Frihetsanka

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Since both players know the stage before selecting fighters, it's up to the player to switch fighters to handle the stage.
If you're talking about game one, there's a pretty good chance the rule will still be character first, then stages (probably double-blind pick in majors and "I'm picking Mario" "I'm Luigi" in locals, but people can always opt to double-blind pick). If you're talking about game 2-5, then couldn't one make the same argument in Smash 4? "I ban Battlefield" "Okay, I pick Dream Land 64". Doing it that way would strongly favor characters good on triplats.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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If you're talking about game one, there's a pretty good chance the rule will still be character first, then stages (probably double-blind pick in majors and "I'm picking Mario" "I'm Luigi" in locals, but people can always opt to double-blind pick). If you're talking about game 2-5, then couldn't one make the same argument in Smash 4? "I ban Battlefield" "Okay, I pick Dream Land 64". Doing it that way would strongly favor characters good on triplats.
Could it be counteracted by having the first match be random with tri-plats omitted from the list?
 

Frihetsanka

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Could it be counteracted by having the first match be random with tri-plats omitted from the list?
Having any stage be random would put too much emphasis on RNG and would encourage people maining characters good on many different stages. I don't think that's a good option.
 

TheBuzzSaw

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Having any stage be random would put too much emphasis on RNG and would encourage people maining characters good on many different stages. I don't think that's a good option.
But this is the reality already. When is the last time someone brought out Little Mac because they had the comfort of a flat stage? In general, the high tiers are high tiers, and they do reasonably well on a wide variety of stages. I agree with your statement at only the most basic philosophical level, but pragmatically, it just doesn't matter. :(
 

TheYungLink

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Hey everyone. I don't play competitive Smash at all, but I've always admired and defended it from a distance. This is partially because I'm not into most fighting games and although Smash isn't a fighting game, the competitive rule sets made for Smash make it very exciting to watch because unlike fighting games, the stages aren't mere background swaps but have completely different layouts and methods for fighting on them (and obviously because I can't see Snake beating up Ganondorf anywhere else, something even the snootier FGC players will admit rocks).

Back when Project M was big, I used to watch tourneys for it habitually for fun, and I vastly preferred it to all past Smash games because as fun as they could be, only a handful of stages were allowed. The reasons were understandable though, as Smash back then was not made for competitive play in mind, so for those not playing Smash as the party game its devs intended it as, it was a neutered experience. Project M made a step in the right direction by having more than 10 competitive stages by the time its final version was released. Many exciting matches were seen because of the new strategies that emerged from the expanded stage list.

While I moved onto Smash 4 shortly afterwards (as much as I loved playing Project M casually [yes, that's possible, just like Melee] it ultimately had no new characters besides miraculously bringing back Roy and Mewtwo, whereas Smash 4 gave me Little Mac and Cloud), I didn't care for the competitive scene at all compared to Project M, as there were less competitive stages. The weird addition of a mode where every stage became a Final Destination clone was off-putting--the whole strength behind Smash is the platforms, making versions of every stage where they're all flat showed that the Smash team REALLY didn't understand the part of their audience that liked playing Smash as a non party game. They seemed dead set on reassuring everyone that Smash is a party game and looking at it as anything else was not a good idea.

But...all these changes in Ultimate now shows that the developers have changed their mind. They obviously still don't see Smash as a fighting game like Street Fighter or Tekken or Soulcalibur or any of those games, but they ARE finally throwing the competitive community a bone. Smash Ultimate is the very first game that's not built up from the ground up to ONLY be a party game, as they are now keeping the competitive community in mind as well, and that excites me! Because for the first time, the viable stage list is HUGE!

When I looked at the posts by Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos , something lit up inside me when I saw that, with hazards off, there are at least TWENTY viable stages, with a whopping THIRTY for the ones they're only mostly certain about. That's roughly 1/5 and 1/3 of all stages respectively! Guys, this is blowing my mind!

If this rule set means we can play on a much bigger variety of stages, I will 100% watch competitive Smash Ultimate. And even though I am aware of a lot of the competitive community's rule sets and thought processes from a distance and are thus understanding when the stage lists are so small in earlier games, I guarantee that the audience that initially turned off of competitive Smash will come back and just grow and grow if the stage list doesn't dwindle.

If you want people like me--i.e. casuals--to start actively supporting competitive Smash, keeping the stage list big even if it doesn't cover all 103 stages (which casual fans can come to understand far easier if the default stage list isn't hilariously tiny) is a crucial first step. Don't listen to anyone who is advocating for a measly 10 or so stages, that's the VERY FIRST THING that will turn off potential fans and players, and more or less permanently label the Smash competitive scene as a complete joke. I 100% understand why the stage list is puny in earlier games, but with hazards off there is zero excuse not to have lots more viable stages.

On a side note: I'm sad that making hazards off universally will lead to stages like Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, and Smashville to be more homogenized (even as a casual I got hyped whenever Randall saved someone or assisted a combo in a Project M tourney). But it's a price I'll pay for an immense increase in viable stages otherwise.

(Now if we could set individually what "hazards" to keep on and off for each stage individually via a menu or something, this wouldn't be a problem, as I wanted Wily Castle without the Yellow Devil but with the moving platforms. But this is as good as we're getting it and it's a net gain overall.)
 
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kendikong

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If you think about it, omegas were created solely for the competitive scene. Sakurai was tired of fd being the only stage that was played on so he made omegas so that we could actually experience all of the music and assets, but in the end we ended up not even using omegas in tourney.

This was because each omega had all sorts of variations, but now in ultimate sakurai and his team literally went out of their way to equalize all of the omega and battlefield variants most likely so that the competitive crowd will actually use them this time.

Are we going to disappoint sakurai all over again and not even consider omegas and bf forms in tourney? I think that is a good question we should ask ourselves.
 
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ぱみゅ

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For what is worth, Omegas were NEVER actually banned.
People just didn't use them.

(Ironically enough, while supposedly they were unable to be used due to their music, the "most official" ruleset allowed only Omega Wily Castle and Omega Suzaku Castle, both of which use music pertaining to a third-party company, Capcom).
:196:
 

Untouch

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I have to wonder if Big Blue isn't in the demo, I haven't seen it pop up once based on the videos I've been watching.
 

Akiak

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Just wanted to make a little update regarding potential stage lists.

I was looking at Unova and wondering if it really is as redundant as people make it out to be. Personally I think the platform position is quite different to PS2 (and Kalos), with them reaching almost all the way to the edges. I also think the double-platform layout is probably the least polarising layout out there and it's not as big of a deal as say, having multiple tri-plats.

The stage itself is also quite smaller than both PS2 and Kalos, both in terms of the main ground and the blastzones. I managed to get in contact with Kurogane Hammer, who provided the blastzone measurements for PS2 & Kalos, as well as BF and FD:

BF: -250, 250, 192, -138
FD: -240, 240, 180, -125
PS2: -250, 250, 180, -125
Kalos: -245, 245, 192, -118

I did some testing myself comparing Unova to BF and FD on 3DS, and if I had to make a guess:

Unova: -220, 220, 170?, ???

It's definitely noticeably smaller both horizontally and vertically (didn't test the bottom blastzone), although definitely not too small either.

With that in mind, I made a list using the same usual starter-counterpick ruleset:

-Starters
BF
FD
PS2
SV
YIB
LYLAT
UNOVA
KALOS
FEROX

-Counterpicks
WARIOWARE
FRIGATE
(CASTLE SEIGE?)

*WW as a CP is due to the very small blastzones (-180, 180) which a few people have brought up as a pretty serious issue

I know some people are gonna call some of the inclusions redundant, but if we decide that it's actually not that big of a deal, I think this works pretty well. Again, I also think the double-platform layout is just generally very suitable as a starter.

Regarding the starter-counterpick dichotomy, I think that if we only have Frigate and Warioware as CPs, it probably won't be an issue, and people will be willing to hang on to them long-term. Also having just one large stage list severely limits the exact amount we can have, unless we want to use RNG (that's also another reason why counterpicks exist).

For the record, this is my full hyper-liberal list, the above is just a more realistic proposition:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Pokémon Stadium 2
Smashville
Lylat
Yoshi's Brawl
Arena Ferox
Kalos
WarioWare
Unova
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege
Brinstar
Skyloft
Halberd
Prism Tower
Peach's Castle 64?
Gamer?
Mario Maker?
Dracula's Castle?
Rainbow Cruise?
Duck Hunt?
Town & City?
Wuhu?
 
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StingArt

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For the record, this is my full hyper-liberal list, the above is just a more realistic proposition:
Why would a full hyper-liberal list exclude stages like Pokémon Stadium 1? You're supposed to be full hyper-liberal here, not conservative.
 

Akiak

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Why would a full hyper-liberal list exclude stages like Pokémon Stadium 1? You're supposed to be full hyper-liberal here, not conservative.
That's definitely redundant, unlike Unova and YIB. ;)

To be honest the only stage I think is missing from that list is Yoshi's Story (Melee), mainly on account of the supposedly very small blastzones, slanted sides, and fairly different platform positions/sizes.
 
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Galgatha

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I actually made a video discussing my thoughts, and I am ar more liberal than you on this topic. And usually I am not liberal at all lol.

Here's the vid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lhEmU7VE8A&t=6s

Quick break down if you need it:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Dreamworld (BF Clone)
Rainbow Cruise
Yoshi's Story (BF Clone)
Fountain of Dreams (BF Clone)
Green Greens
Pokemon Stadium 1
WarioWare Inc
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Smashville
Unova Pokemon League
Arena Ferox
Find Mii
Mushroom Kingdom U
Skyloft
Kalos Pokemon League
Town & City
Wuhu Island
Midgar (BF Clone)
Dracula's Castle


Unsure/possible/ban-as-necessary
Peach's Castle
Kongo Jungle
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
Brinstar
Reset Bomb Forrest
Gamer
Wily Castle (FD Clone)
Super Mario Maker
 
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Galgatha

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https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9w4fhd/tantalus_releases_first_draft_of_smash_ultimate/

Thoughts?

12 stages, no redundancy, the winner only gets 1 ban though. Game 1 is still character before stage, which is what I was hoping for (that seems much better than stage before character for game 1). Oh, and XXXX Miis legal! Stage hazards always off. 3 stock, 6 minutes.
Why on earth are we once again breaking up stages into "Starter/Counterpick"? And maybe you can explain to me the reason as to why, even though Ultimate is set up with "stage first", we would flip this around to "character first" for round 1?
 

Frihetsanka

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Why on earth are we once again breaking up stages into "Starter/Counterpick"?
Because it's the best system available.

And maybe you can explain to me the reason as to why, even though Ultimate is set up with "stage first", we would flip this around to "character first" for round 1?
We could've run stage first for Smash 4 as well, but didn't, because it'd be worse than character first. We ran stage first for counter-picks game 2-5 in Smash 4, even though Smash 4 is character first by default. Having a reasoned system is better than just doing what the game does by default, and striking without knowing the opponent's character is problematic.

It's not like it's hard to select character game 1 anyway. Majors will likely have double blind pick be the norm (or people just playing their mains game 1), locals might have either double-blind pick or just both players stating their character verbally, and then you strike stages. It's not a problem.
 

Galgatha

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Because it's the best system available.
.
Thanks for explaining the other thing. I don't agree, but thanks.

This is the 1 thing I still take issue with. How do we know it is the best system available when we literally haven't been able to test out anything else? Seperating the stages into Starter/Counterpick places an arbitrary limit on the amount of legal stages available given that it promotes the currently terrible system of stage striking per set.

I don't understand why we are trying to force Ultimate to fit the Smash 4 competitive model. This system doesn't provide any further player control than any other proposed system, it doesn't take less time, it doesn't actually separate stages into "neutral" and "counter" given that not a single stage is truly character neutral. There is zero benefit to this system as opposed to other systems.
 

Frihetsanka

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Seperating the stages into Starter/Counterpick places an arbitrary limit on the amount of legal stages available given that it promotes the currently terrible system of stage striking per set.
People have spent a lot of time discussing various stages, and the main reason the stage list will be kept limited is that there simply aren't nearly as many good stages as some people seem to think. Honestly, after having spent hours upon hours discussing various stages and looking from them from various angles, it now seems to me that my early estimation of 9-12 legal stages was a bit too optimistic. Barring good DLC stages, it now seems more likely that we'll send up with 8-10 stages rather than 9-12. Changing the stage select system wouldn't change that number, because stages like Dracula's Castle and Rainbow Cruise will likely be banned because they're degenerate in competitive play, not because we want to stick to starters/non-starters.

With that being said, I do think 9 starters is worth trying. Perhaps, if we end up with exactly 9 stages, we could run 9 starters and 0 counter-pick/non-starter stages. I don't think we should try to force exactly 9 stages though.
 

Galgatha

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Changing the stage select system wouldn't change that number, because stages like Dracula's Castle and Rainbow Cruise will likely be banned because they're degenerate in competitive play, not because we want to stick to starters/non-starters.
This has me curious. How do they support degenerate play? Is it because of size, because they are asymetrical? I could understand you saying...say, Kongo Falls due to the presence of that rock. But I fail to see how etiher Rainbow Cruise or Dracula's Castle supports degenerate play.

My main complaint is, given that we really haven't had too many free-standing tournaments with our custom rules, banning possibly legal stages prematurely like this isn't the way to go. I think we should give these stages an honest try in legal play, and ban them only if they can be proven to be abused consistently.
 
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Frihetsanka

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But I fail to see how etiher Rainbow Cruise or Dracula's Castle supports degenerate play.
We've seen some nasty wall-combos (like Isabelle spamming jab), and both of these stages have walls. Additionally, Dracula's Castle has the staircase which can be camped hard by some characters.
 

Galgatha

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We've seen some nasty wall-combos (like Isabelle spamming jab), and both of these stages have walls. Additionally, Dracula's Castle has the staircase which can be camped hard by some characters.
Has the camping been proving? I still stand that we should use them in competitive play and ban as necessary. End result, if they truly are bad, would be that they are still banned, but at least we would have plenty of footage, and community complain/spectator complain of that stage being legal. If it's honestly hot that huge of an issue, players can simply ban the stage per-set.
 

Frihetsanka

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Has the camping been proving?
I don't think so, that's currently theory-crafting.

I still stand that we should use them in competitive play and ban as necessary. End result, if they truly are bad, would be that they are still banned, but at least we would have plenty of footage, and community complain/spectator complain of that stage being legal. If it's honestly hot that huge of an issue, players can simply ban the stage per-set.
They'll probably be legal early on for some locals and online tournaments, and I bet some to players will lab the stages to see if they're degenerate, so we're likely to get footage either way. I personally wouldn't have minded to see a few more stages tested at Xanadu (like Gamer, assuming it keeps the same layout every time), but I respect their decision. Still 12 stages with no real redundancy, so that's something.
 

Galgatha

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I don't think so, that's currently theory-crafting.

They'll probably be legal early on for some locals and online tournaments, and I bet some to players will lab the stages to see if they're degenerate, so we're likely to get footage either way. I personally wouldn't have minded to see a few more stages tested at Xanadu (like Gamer, assuming it keeps the same layout every time), but I respect their decision. Still 12 stages with no real redundancy, so that's something.
Hey, 12 stages is better than nothing, but I am not a fan of this consistent need it seems by others in the community to make Ultimate fit into the Smash 4 competitive model. We don't even have the game yet, everything is just theory-crafting. We need to create a new system that works for Ultimate, or seriously tweek the one that we currently have.

I honestly hope others feel like me, set up tournaments with different systems, and then simply let the best system win IMO. If it ends up being the "Smash 4 fit to Ultimate" system, then so be it. But I would like to see attempts to make new systems work, and to also see the community open to these new systems should they prove to be better than the current Smash 4 set-up.
 

Frihetsanka

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I honestly hope others feel like me, set up tournaments with different systems, and then simply let the best system win IMO. If it ends up being the "Smash 4 fit to Ultimate" system, then so be it. But I would like to see attempts to make new systems work, and to also see the community open to these new systems should they prove to be better than the current Smash 4 set-up.
You want to experiment for your locals/online tournaments? Sure, go ahead! I think, in the end, top level TOs will value quality over quantity and problematic stages will end up banned.
 
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