Discussion of Stage Legality in Smash Bros. Ultimate

[Untouch]

Link to a video? I'm not fully up to date with all that's been going on this weekend.

https://youtu.be/as4BP8j_Y-o?t=3385
Yeah it's a walkoff.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

https://youtu.be/as4BP8j_Y-o?t=3385
Yeah it's a walkoff.

Thanks for the source. I'll have to watch it more thoroughly tomorrow but yep, that form's definitely a walkoff.

At this point I feel the need to reiterate that a temporary walkoff is not inherently grounds for a stage ban because being temporary effectively neuters the primary degenerate gameplay they otherwise encourage.

 

[ShneeOscar]

On another segment there were platforms quite a bit below the stage that might be campable. New Donk is not looking great, IMO, but still better than Delfino or Wuhu. Prism Tower is obviously the best traveling stage.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So I've been watching a ton of footage just gathering game dynamics and seeing a lot of the stages in action. The big things I've learned are seeing New Donk City in action (honestly it looks fine), seeing PTAD has ledges now (massively upgrades the stage), and seeing that even with hazards Dracula's Castle doesn't actually have hazards (the monsters are purely background aesthetics). Here are my current feelings on how I'm guessing things pan out. Note this stage list is based on what I think *should* happen, not based on what I think will happen.

Spoiler: Stage List

Full Confidence:

Battlefield (clone Dream Land/Fountain of Dreams/Midgar)
Final Destination (clone Wily's Castle/probably Arena Ferox)
Brinstar
Yoshi's Story
Pokemon Stadium (clone Pokemon Stadium 2 probably)
Delfino Plaza
Frigate Orpheon
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Prism Tower
Town and City
Wuhu Island
Umbra Clock Tower

Very High Confidence:

WarioWare Inc. (as long as the microgames don't happen at all, seems very likely)
Halberd (as long as we don't have any low ceiling stupidity like Bayonetta problems)
Port Town Aero Dive (now has ledges, assuming cars are gone the stage seems probably fine)
Unova Pokemon League (hazards off just has to be what we think it will be)
PictoChat 2 (hazards off just has to be what we think it will be)
Mushroom Kingdom U (maybe too big, hazards off a little mystery, probably fine)
Mario Circuit (hazards off needs to kill the hitboxes)
Skyloft (hazards off needs to kill the hitboxes)
Kalos Pokemon League (hazards off just has to be what we think it will be)
Duck Hunt (I just don't buy tree camping as an issue frankly)
New Donk City (seems great but new so some uncertainty)

Very Unsure:

Super Happy Tree (are the clouds present?)
Rainbow Cruise (depends on what it does without hazards, gotta check out the wall)
Jungle Japes (might be too campy)
Green Greens (might be too campy)
Corneria (gotta see if the lower gun is still here, gotta actually test unusual lay-out)
Big Blue (what does it even do without hazards?)
Norfair (very unusual lay-out but nothing obviously broken about it)
Castle Siege (if it's only the first form fine, the second form may not be worth tolerating by this point)
Spirit Train (no bottom blastzone and generally unusual but nothing obviously offensive other than maybe the wall)
Find Mii (might be campy, really unsure)
Gamer (does hazards off prevent loop formations?)
Garden of Hope (just a very strange layout, nothing obviously ban-worthy)
Windy Hill Zone (does hazards off get rid of the windmill?)
Super Mario Maker (does hazards off guarantee a quality lay-out?)
Great Plateau Tower (is the cave of life effect a problem?)
Dracula's Castle (the size/campiness/walls all need investigation)

Fairy Marginal:

Kongo Jungle (obnoxious, polarizing)
Reset Bomb Forest (generally awkward geography on both forms, gotta check out the nuances)

Seems Unlikely:

Big Battlefield (probably still just too big)
Peach's Castle (Just too unorthodox, hazards off probably freezes the bottom platform and makes it into a campfest)
Saffron City (probably too campy)
Skyworld (just a huge cave of life)
Pirate Ship (I'm concerned by the water)
3d Land (walk-offs and generally awful structure, hazards off may be a good mystery)
Dream Land GB (truly awful stage that is a bit of a mystery with hazards off)
Mute City SNES (obviously terrible stage with some hazards off mystery)
Magicant (the bottom platform being gone would save it; I wouldn't count on it)
Tortimer Island (I'm concerned by the water)

Definitely Banned:

Hyrule Castle (too much camping)
Mushroom Kingdom 64 (walk-offs, loops)
Princess Peach's Castle (campfest)
Kongo Falls (the rock camping)
Great Bay (loop)
Temple (loop)
Yoshi's Island Melee (walk-off, hilariously low ceiling)
Venom (too much camping)
Onett (walk-offs)
Mushroom Kingdom II (walk-offs)
Brinstar Depths (extreme camping)
Fourside (too much camping)
Mushroomy Kingdom (walk-offs)
Figure-8 Circuit (walk-offs)
Bridge of Eldin (walk-offs)
Distant Planet (walk-offs)
New Pork City (loops)
Summit (loops)
Shadow Moses Island (I just don't believe this structure could possibly play well)
Luigi's Mansion (being unbreakable will ruin it, and it was marginal breakable)
Spear Pillar (loops)
75m (walk-offs, very campy)
Mario Bros. (walk-offs, loops)
Hanenbow (loops)
Green Hill Zone (walk-offs)
Golden Plains (walk-offs)
Paper Mario (walk-offs, insane geography, almost no path to legality)
Gerudo Valley (walk-offs)
Balloon Fight (loops)
Living Room (walk-offs)
Tomodachi Life (just an awful structure, played like trash in 3ds and no reason to suspect a change)
Mario Galaxy (walk-offs)
Great Cave Offensive (loops)
Coliseum (walk-offs)
Flat Zone X (walk-offs)
Palutena's Temple (loops)
Wii Fit Studio (walk-offs)
Boxing Ring (walk-offs)
Gaur Plain (walk-offs)
Wrecking Crew (truly awful super vertical lay-out, polarizing, run-away)
Pilotwings (loops and camping: the stage)
PAC-LAND (walk-offs)
Suzaku Castle (walk-offs, camping)
Moray Towers (just a visibly garbage lay-out, will be polarizing and have tons of run-away and basically be Wrecking Crew 2)

 

[dav3yb]

and seeing that even with hazards Dracula's Castle doesn't actually have hazards (the monsters are purely background aesthetics).

at least until dracula shows up right?

 

[JayJay584]

https://twitter.com/Greward3

This person is going through every stage hazardless

Highlights:
Rainbow Ride is static
WarioWare is static
PS1 is static
Skyloft is static
Brinstar has no hitboxes on the goop on the floor and the thing holding the platforms, no lava
Green Greens has no blocks or apples at all

 

[Untouch]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9u2zio/compilation_of_information_about_hazardless/

Skyloft doesn't move, Castle Siege doesn't transform, Rainbow Cruise doesn't move.
These three need to be legal.

Mushroom Kingdom U doesn't transform, but still a bit big so I'm calling legal in doubles.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A thread on Reddit purports to have information on hazardless stages. One of the sources cited is the Greward3 from the post above mine, so it's probably legit. I'll bold the stages that stand out to me

Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/9u2zio/compilation_of_information_about_hazardless/

Summary:
Pokemon Stadium: No transformations
Super Happy Tree: Still has the clouds.
Duck Hunt: No ducks/dog
Reset Bomb Forest: No transformations
Warioware: No transformations
Delfino Plaza: Still transforms
Hyrule Castle: No tornadoes
Mute City SNES: Static layout, ground still hurts you
Yoshi's Island: Middle platform doesn't tilt, no Shy Guys or Whimsical Support Ghost
Mushroom Kingdom: Weight sensitive platforms gone, no Piranha Plants
Living Room: No change (???)
Green Greens: No blocks/bomb blocks, no mention of Whispy Woods and apples
Jungle Japes: No Klaptrap, water still carries you offscreen
Unova Pokemon League: Flat + 2 platforms, Pokemon appear but do nothing
Dream Land: No wind
Boxing Ring: No change
Suzaku Castle: No change
Castle Siege: No transformations
Norfair: No lava
Figure-8 Circuit: No karts
Saffron City: No Pokemon
Town & City: No balloons, platforms do not move all the way to blast zone
Princess Peach's Castle: No Banzai Bill, no buttons for platforms, existing platforms static
Umbra Clock Tower: No platforms
Wily Castle: No platforms, no Yellow Devil
Distant Planet: Leaf platforms don't sink under player weight, no rain, no Bulborb, no pill flowers
Paper Mario: No transformations, no desk fan blowing wind
Tomodachi Life: No change
Dracula's Castle: "Static and good"
Kongo Falls: Rock still exists, stage doesn't sink under player weight, no logs getting stuck in waterfall
Bridge of Eldin: No King Bulblin or bomb
Mario Circuit: Still transforms, no Shy Guys, background is still dangerous
Moray Towers: No change
Skyloft: No transformations
Luigi's Mansion: Pillars can't be hit
Mushroom Kingdom U: No transformations
Frigate Orpheon: No fllipping
Golden Plains: No coins
Brinstar: Stage elements are indestructible, no acid
Gerudo Valley: Indestructible bridge, no Twinrova
Spirit Tracks: "Stage doesn't move at all" (relative to screen or tracks?), platforms sometimes float overhead
Shadow Moses Island: Indestructible walls
Coliseum: No platforms (boring...)
Wii Fit Studio: Two static platforms
The Summit: Still transforms, no fish, ice is unbreakable
Brinstar Depths: No Kraid, therefore static
Rainbow Cruise: Static stage, just the ship
Halberd: Combo Cannon does not attack, otherwise no change
Fountain of Dreams: Platforms are static
Pokemon Stadium 2: No transformations
3D Land: No spikes, otherwise no change
Smashville: Platform is static, no balloons
Wuhu Island: No transformations
Port Town Aero Dive: No racers, track is still dangerous when flying around
Kalos Pokemon League: No transformations
Arena Ferox: Starts at and remains in statues transformation
Pilotwings: Red plane only, background is still dangerous
Pirate Ship: No catapult, tornado, bombs, shipwreck, King of Red Lions, tilting
Corneria: No Arwings or laser
Venom: No Arwings
Final Destination: No change lol
Yoshi's Island Melee: Flip blocks don't react to attacks
Yoshi's Story: No Randall, no Shy Guys
Peach's Castle: No bumper, sliding platform is static
Balloon Fight: No bumpers/fish/lightning, stalactites are indestructible
Mario Maker: Inconclusive, need more data re: random layouts
Lylat Cruise: No tilting
Gamer: No 5-Volt, need more data re: random layouts
Tortimer Island: No fruit or sharks, layout still random
Kongo Jungle: No barrel, moving platforms are static and roughly level with top platforms
New Donk City Hall: Acts like Prism Tower, not all stops are used each cycle

Edit with some thoughts:
Pokemon Stadium, Warioware, Yoshi's Island, Unova Pokemon League, Castle Siege, Umbra Clock Tower, Wily Castle, Dracula's Castle, Skyloft, Frigate Orpheon, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Fountain of Dreams, Pokemon Stadium 2, Smashville, Wuhu Island, Kalos Pokemon League, Arena Ferox, Final Destination, Yoshi's Story, and New Donk City Hall should all be shoo-ins for legality assuming this information is correct. The only potential wrinkle is similar shape to existing stages, e.g. Pokemon Stadium 1 + 2 + Unova or Umbra + Wily + FD.

Duck Hunt, Reset Bomb Forest, Delfino Plaza, Mute City SNES, Green Greens, Jungle Japes, Norfair, Mario Circuit, Mushroom Kingdom U, Spirit Tracks, Halberd, Pirate Ship, and Tortimer Island will need honest testing to see if they're (still?) abuseable or not. Mario Maker and Gamer too, pending more data on their random layouts.

Everything else in the list is probably still banned for one reason or another. (Unless someone wants to argue that Distant Planet's sloped walkoff is somehow fine?)

Remaining stages I'm really interested in learning about are Mario Maker, Gamer, (random layouts), Magicant (bottom campy platform), Garden of Hope, Find Mii, Windy Hill Zone, and Big Blue.

 

[Untouch]

I want to see how Kalos works, but even if the stage never transforms and it doesn't just work like T&C, should be legal and separated from the other dual platform stages.
Now we await the death of Smashville. AND THERE IT IS! Sonic mains crying all across the world!
https://twitter.com/Marcbri/status/1059098443736629248

 

[Munomario777]

Smashville is static with hazards off.

I’m actually down for this, no more starterville hopefully?

 

[Untouch]

Still think it should be separate from YI Brawl, and honestly with the news today, hazards should ALWAYS be off.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Agreed hazards off should be the universal tournament setting. I can think of maybe two stages where hazards on would work better: Great Plateau Tower and (ugh) Smashville.

(Sorry, I'm just sick to death of Smashville.)

For the first couple of months, at least, we probably shouldn't even be trying to exclude stages based on similarity to existing ones. We know literally nothing about how the meta will shape up so doing so would be extremely premature at this point.

 

[Untouch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjME4R9H_G8
It's live now, don't know if hazardless will be on in this stream.

Wuhu Island: Doesn't land. I like this layout, legal?

 

[MysticKnives]

So WarioWare, Skyloft, Brinstar, Unova Pokemon League, and Castle Siege all have a shot at being legal?

 

[ShneeOscar]

Nintendo's Definition of what constitutes a "Hazzard" is so bizzare.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It must be my lucky day. The instant I clicked the stream it went to a Wuhu Island match. It's clearly hazardless, the opening location was different and we're a minute in with no transformation.

Hazardless Wuhu Island does not transform. Layout is the long red platform with upward sloped edges.

Port Town Aero Dive still transforms when hazardless and the race track is still dangerous when in motion. Only change seems to be lack of F-Zero racers.

Unrelated: Ness's PSI effects and Gunner's reflector look SWEET.

 

[ShneeOscar]

Port Town Aero Dive Hazardless still has hitboxes while the stage is moving, so that's out. The Question is does Skyloft have them too?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Kalos Pokemon League does not transform when hazardless. It has two static platforms, one halfway over each ledge.

Hazardless Arena Ferox is the statues configuration, and the statues appear to be indestructible, or at the very least I'm not seeing any hit effects on them.

Unrelated: This Zelda is dunking on Mewtwo, and her final smash does upwards of 40% on top of having a vacuum effect.

 

[DJ3DS]

This stream is super encouraging for stages so far. Ferox, Kalos, Wuhu all look fine to me!

 

[Munomario777]

FEROX IS SO HYPE THO

 

[Untouch]

LMAO the Rathalos Music is on Pilotwings...?
Looks like the yellow plane never moves in, still banned as it's a very campable stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

On the off chance anyone cares, Pilotwings is just the one plane but the background is still dangerous. Just killed Ness.

Ness also popped his final smash while caught in PK Fire what the actual ****?

 

[Untouch]

Pirate Ship: Bumper doesn't exist, ship doesn't seem to rock, no ships in background, no rock. Water still.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pirate Ship's catapult is non-functional and a constant string of background islands takes the place of the bomb platform, tornado, etc. It's unclear if the King of Red Lions is absent or not, and I'd bet money the prow of the boat still spikes you.

 

[Untouch]

Corneria: Not surprisingly, the laser doesn't fire and the ships don't home in. Safe to assume the laser doesn't have a hitbox either. Ness doing a solid job demonstrating why this stage is banned as well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Corneria: Not surprisingly, the laser doesn't fire and the ships don't home in. Safe to assume the laser doesn't have a hitbox either. Ness doing a solid job demonstrating why this stage is banned as well.

I'll admit I tuned out to attend to a few other things but I assume he camped the tail hard?

 

[MysticKnives]

FEROX IS SO HYPE THO

This. Unique layout when hazardless. So excited for it.

Corneria: Not surprisingly, the laser doesn't fire and the ships don't home in. Safe to assume the laser doesn't have a hitbox either. Ness doing a solid job demonstrating why this stage is banned as well.

Lol. Yeah, this stage won’t work. Kinda like seeing my boy show off why though lol.

 

[Untouch]

I'll admit I tuned out to attend to a few other things but I assume he camped the tail hard?

sure did lol

Venom: Functionally the same, will be banned the same as well.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

sure did lol

Venom: Functionally the same, will be banned the same as well.

Venom also has/had Arwings fly through, same as Corneria. But yeah banned easily.

Okay so hazardless FD is obviously the same as always but is it just me or does it seem smaller than usual?

 

[Untouch]

Final Destination looks absolutely gorgeous. Background doesn't seem too bad either.

 

[Munomario777]

Okay so hazardless FD is obviously the same as always but is it just me or does it seem smaller than usual?

Yeah, FD seems a lot smaller in this game. Probably to match the size with battlefield. BF and omega forms use the same stage model, including identical width.

 

[Untouch]

Yoshi Island Melee: Blocks don't break.
Daisy has Zelda hit effects and this match is REALLY messing with my mind.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yoshi's Island Melee's yellow flip blocks do not react to attacks.

 

[MysticKnives]

Just saw FD. Looks beautiful

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Looks like the toggle deletes Randall.

 

[Untouch]

Mushroom Kingdom 64: Bottom platform is stationary, no bumper.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sliding platform on Peach's Castle 64 is static. The bumper looks gone, too. (Camera hasn't gone high enough for a good look yet.)

EDIT: Got the good camera angle, bumper is definitely gone.

EDIT 2: Mushroom Kingdom is obviously banned but Ness just recovered successfully from inside the center pit. Didn't expect that.

 

[Untouch]

Mushroom Kingdom 64: Middle platform is totally gone. This stage actually becomes 100% more banned with hazards off somehow.
Balloon Fight: No bumpers, no fish, no lightning.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Balloon Fight: Stalactites are indestructible, no fish, clouds don't shoot lightning

(File this one under "stages no one cares about.")

 

[dav3yb]

I'm so ****ing hype now... so many stages are legal beyond any reason. Anyone wanting a small list now is just being stupid.