Discussion: Build agreement and the future of PM

[Mage.]

So, I'm assuming everyone has been caught up with the recent news. The PMDT has disbanded and any future development of project M has ceased.

We need to, as a community, come to a firm resolution on what build we're going to stand by. What I mean by this is deciding what build we will use permanently. I'm already starting to see on reddit people suggesting creating a new dev team or making their own changes to PM. We can't fracture into multiple subgroups that play this game, the community needs to come to a firm resolution on which build it will support and we need to stand by it. By builds I mean the following options:

1. We stay on 3.6f, including all the bugs that it still has (link's grab for example, yoshi's bugs) and don't change it.
2. We adopt the alt changes such as ZSS reskins, Roy awakening skins, and Jigglypuff headband as well as the bug fixes that come along with that build. No balance changes.
3. We adopt both the alt changes/bug fixes and the balance changes that were intended.

I'm not going to mention the option of picking up where the Dev team left of and continuing the project, because I think it's a general consensus that the game is fairly balanced and now that official development has stopped it should not be continued. That and anymore balancing, especially by a pseudo team, would lead to even more divisions within our community. I am also NOT going to include the option of including Lyn or Knuckles. As awesome as it may have been, they still have work that needs to be accomplished for them. Adding two more characters behind a non-existent balancing team is a terrible idea, despite how badly I want both of them. It is, in my opinion, vital that we act on this quickly.

Please share this thread with people you know! So, which of the three would you support? Discuss below~

 

[Frozn~]

I think just sticking with bug fixes is fine. We don't know all the balance changes that were intended, but the game is fairly balanced despite some characters having bad matchups.

 

[Cox Box]

I'd personally be for including bug fixes, the unreleased alt costumes, but no balance changes. However, it's not up to me, it's up to the community. Is there some feasible way to put it to a vote?

 

[ted dorosheff]

I'd personally be for including bug fixes, the unreleased alt costumes, but no balance changes. However, it's not up to me, it's up to the community. Is there some feasible way to put it to a vote?

This is absolutely feasible, there are websites like https://www.easypolls.net/ which provide a way to create a poll and provide choices which can then be voted on and ultimately a resolution can be reached.

Personally i vote for the 2nd option; apply bugfixes and promised cosmetic upgrades and then set it in stone.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

did you read what strong bad said on the homepage of smashboards

play 3.6

 

[ted dorosheff]

did you read what strong bad said on the homepage of smashboards

play 3.6

Thats it, i agree with this.

 

[.alizarin]

1 is what i want, 2 is fine i guess with VERY EXTENSIVE TESTING BEFORE SERIOUS ADOPTION

3 is a horrible idea

 

[Mage.]

did you read what strong bad said on the homepage of smashboards

play 3.6

This thread was made before he made that post but I wholeheartedly agree. The issue is that there are already people working to implement Lyn and Knuckles on reddit and that's my main concern. The fact that there are already people moving to continue the torch is already a threat to dividing the community even further. What worries me even more is that no one seems to give a **** about the consequences.

 

[Frozn~]

Well honestly all that matters is what the TOs decide. I'm fairly certain that most TOs value consistency, and people will follow suit. There's real appeal in the fact that the meta can finally move forward now.
The people making new characters understand that what they are making is no longer Project M, and that they'll have to build up a rapport from scratch.

 

[zpxociv]

The tourney organizers have a pretty good solution: show up with unofficial PM builds and they kick you out, even for just trying to play it on the sidelines for fun. The Fourth Reich is here. The irony of making an unofficial mod official with a zero tolerance policy is beyond silly.

 

[m0NtÉ]

Option 2 seems to be the best, but great care must be taken to not destabilize the meta. PM 3.6 is our game now, like it or not, and bad matchups will exist, but I think with careful bug fixes and the advertised skins, we can leave this version to the hands of time.

 

[fsck!]

I think that the current version, as released, is fine. I am 99% certain that at the events I co-run we will be sticking to 3.6. I don't make that call, I just set up setups and take registration, but I am still 99% certain we will stick to 3.6 because it's what everyone already has.

 

[Rawkobo]

To be perfectly honest, if bugfixing is done and it is demonstrated that zero other things got adjusted (which means risks were not taken), then that would be the way to go and I would be fine with community work on that front.

The fact that it's easy to call the professionalism of most members of this community that weren't on the PMDT initially into question, regardless of what's transpired during the past 48 hours or so, is what makes me highly hesitant of options 2 and 3. "Evolution" has already made clear in its goals that it's not keeping the focus that was the glue of the PMDT in the first place, so I'm highly skeptical anyone knows what they're doing in that regard.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

Fix olimars grabs also. But i would not be terribly against slightly buffing bottom 5 characters. Anyways. Ill be okay with bug fixes. But if we could work the bottom 5-10 then i'd be cool with that too. Either way. I would like the game to keep evolving

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

r/newpmdt is working on the cosmetics and bugfixes for a Project M: Gold Edition. Then they are leaving the project m name and creating a mod where project m left off called evolved. I highly suggest we use this gold edition if it's as they say it is.

 

[Mage.]

r/newpmdt is working on the cosmetics and bugfixes for a Project M: Gold Edition. Then they are leaving the project m name and creating a mod where project m left off called evolved. I highly suggest we use this gold edition if it's as they say it is.

I am very skeptical about this evolved team and their gold edition. From what i've seen over the last few hours they seem to be disorganized and not very clear on where they want to go. Then again, they literally were made up on the spot. It isn't worth the risk to the ex-PMDT to release that version and even if it all does go smoothly, the fact that they will try to "carry the torch" of the PMDT and make their own version is them playing with fire. Sure, that's what PM did, but now PM is at the level where Nintendo is very much aware of its existence and they are obviously not happy. I think that for the best of everyone we just stick with 3.6f.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

I am very skeptical about this evolved team and their gold edition. From what i've seen over the last few hours they seem to be disorganized and not very clear on where they want to go. Then again, they literally were made up on the spot. It isn't worth the risk to the ex-PMDT to release that version and even if it all does go smoothly, the fact that they will try to "carry the torch" of the PMDT and make their own version is them playing with fire. Sure, that's what PM did, but now PM is at the level where Nintendo is very much aware of its existence and they are obviously not happy. I think that for the best of everyone we just stick with 3.6f.

Oh evolved has nothing to do with pm it's it's own beast. They're even changing the physics. They ae just going to do bug fixes and add the aethetics and that's it. While I am not going to get my hopes up, if it goes well i am certainly not going to turn it down.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I am very skeptical about this evolved team and their gold edition. From what i've seen over the last few hours they seem to be disorganized and not very clear on where they want to go. Then again, they literally were made up on the spot. It isn't worth the risk to the ex-PMDT to release that version and even if it all does go smoothly, the fact that they will try to "carry the torch" of the PMDT and make their own version is them playing with fire. Sure, that's what PM did, but now PM is at the level where Nintendo is very much aware of its existence and they are obviously not happy. I think that for the best of everyone we just stick with 3.6f.

From what I understand, it's not that Nintendo obviously isn't happy, it's that there's potential for trouble. Granted, there's always been potential for trouble and that had never stopped anyone before just now. The whole thing is confusing and left even more confusing over the abrupt end of their development work. Everything is so vague and full of unrest that it's hard to really tell what is and isn't the right thing for anyone to do.

I'm of the opinion that simply fixing the bugs inside 3.6 is the best choice, as some of these bugs hurt character viability to a degree. The PMDT would have taken care of it had they not dropped development, and without these fixes, the game is more or less incomplete.

Oh evolved has nothing to do with pm it's it's own beast. They're even changing the physics. They ae just going to do bug fixes and add the aethetics and that's it. While I am not going to get my hopes up, if it goes well i am certainly not going to turn it down.

Change physics to what degree? For what purpose? Just to be different? If so, that's a stupid reason to do anything.

 

[Mage.]

From what I gathered the whole reason why the PMDT did this all in the first place is because they got in contact with a lawyer who told them the consequences of all this and that it was highly advised to stop. There was something floating around that a source told them Nintendo was going to act quickly and move past a C&D. Whether that's true or just a rumor is irrelevant but it is almost certain that Nintendo was going to do something eventually.

Also AFAIK they aren't changing the physics, they meant to say they are just going to continue with the balancing/pushes to change characters more to their homage and make them better. I still am not on board with it nor am I advocating for the gold build either.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

From what I gathered the whole reason why the PMDT did this all in the first place is because they got in contact with a lawyer who told them the consequences of all this and that it was highly advised to stop. There was something floating around that a source told them Nintendo was going to act quickly and move past a C&D. Whether that's true or just a rumor is irrelevant but it is almost certain that Nintendo was going to do something eventually.

Also AFAIK they aren't changing the physics, they meant to say they are just going to continue with the balancing/pushes to change characters more to their homage and make them better. I still am not on board with it nor am I advocating for the gold build either.

They can't anymore because pmdt has been disbanded.

 

[Mage.]

They can't anymore because pmdt has been disbanded.

If you seriously believe that Nintendo can't take legal action if they wanted to on the now non-existent members of the PMDT just because it was disbanded then you're very naive.

Anyway, I'm still advocating for just sticking with 3.6f and after watching the salt mines i'm even more in agreement.

 

[Cox Box]

But think of the Yoshi and Link mains! They're 2 tiny bugs, and they're already done. Why purposely leave 2 characters broken forever?

 

[xTurtl3x]

I like option 2, but not if it gets anyone in trouble. I mean bug fixes are nice but not if the PMDT get blamed for it. Staying with 3.6 is definately the best option regardless of bugs.

 

[xquqx]

But think of the Yoshi and Link mains! They're 2 tiny bugs, and they're already done. Why purposely leave 2 characters broken forever?

Why purposely divide the community and put the ex-PMDT members at risk?

 

[Cox Box]

Why purposely divide the community and put the ex-PMDT members at risk?

Because that may or may not be an actual consequence of fixing the Yoshi bugs and link's grab. We don't know that for sure.

But let's be clear, 3.6 as it exists now is still a great game. I just think what we decide to do as a community should be up to us, the community.

 

[fsck!]

Because that may or may not be an actual consequence of fixing the Yoshi bugs and link's grab. We don't know that for sure.

But let's be clear, 3.6 as it exists now is still a great game. I just think what we decide to do as a community should be up to us, the community.

You do realize that you are trivializing their well being, right? If it turns out we're wrong, they'll go bankrupt and likely have a very hard time finding a stable job. I really don't think that it's fair to trivialize this, especially with people's lives (almost literally) on the line over some polish in a videogame. Ultimately, that's what the argument is going to come down to, and proceeding will just fragment the community.

 

[Rᴏb]

Ignore this.

 

[Oracle_Fefe]

Option 3 should be omitted and main focus should go between 1 and 2.

3.6f provides the safest options for the PMDT as it already exists in its own sphere. However, it leaves a few bugs in the game that do hamper the true competitive nature it can provide for certain characters.

3.6c (Community Build)/3.6.1 provides the true fleshed out 3.6 with bugfixes but not costumes (They can be added by the players themselves), and the risk for anyone is minimal. It isn't an update that catches legal eye and would be modded by sources outside a literal Development Team. It could be said that anyone may create a minor bugfix or hex edit for Smash. The real concern is whether or not a company would actually unleash the law against a group who set their pet project free.

3.7 (Option 3) is a controversial idea as the balance changes were not considered with the game being under its last days of development. The only true changes that should happen if this is the case are minor additions (An idea I've had: Like Lucario, if Yoshi presses A after up+B he does a short hop) or minor buffs. Even then, this poses serious risks on the legal end and in the competitive game itself.

 

[ECHOnce]

You do realize that you are trivializing their well being, right? If it turns out we're wrong, they'll go bankrupt and likely have a very hard time finding a stable job. I really don't think that it's fair to trivialize this, especially with people's lives (almost literally) on the line over some polish in a videogame. Ultimately, that's what the argument is going to come down to, and proceeding will just fragment the community.

Spoiler: TL;DR

Safe things include:
*Intangible content that won't potentially hurt metagame, were intended for 3.6 (bug fixes)
*Tangible content that are new/pre-existing (visual aesthetics like costumes, portraits etc.)

Unsafe things include:
*Intangible content that can potentially hurt metagame, weren't intended for 3.6 (balance patches)
*Tangible content that was leaked (visual aesthetics that were previously unreleased, new characters, etc.)

Agreed, but bug fixes have no legal risk. We don't know much, but from what we do, we can confidently presume that the factors that could lead to legal harm are 1) any progression of the game whatsoever at the hands of the PMDT, and 2) new "tangible" content that was not previously featured in 3.6. By tangible, I mean...things that are apparent to the human eye; "new content" that could potentially be at copyright risk or whatever. Like costumes, other visual aesthetics, characters, any new moves, etc. This would not include bug fixes or balancing patches, if they are developed not under the name of the PMDT, but from other groups and/or the community. Anything other than those are obviously out of the question and NOT ok to pursue.

That said, we also have the issue of how changes will affect the metagame. Bug fixes would change the metagame, in a way that most people believe preferable - they would get rid of accidental changes like the Link tether grab nerf. We've seen this done before with Toon Link's F-smash taunt glitch in 3.6 beta, and the competitive community widely accepted the use of a bug fix made by a non-PMDT (random community member, iirc) within a week of it being found. Balance patches, on the other hand, would obviously have a much larger influence, and many have taken a strong stance against this (myself included).

Visual aesthetics. Textures featured in the leaked dev builds fall under the category of tangible content made under the name of the PMDT, and as stated above, they should not be used. However, visual aesthetics have always been commonplace in the modding community. There is no legal harm in using old stage textures/costumes/visuals/whatever, or making new ones, so long as it is not released under the PMDT name.

 

[TopOfAllWorlds]

Guys. What the hell. BUGFIXES will not put them in danger, Especially if it wasn't made by the project m dev team. What you are saying is absolutly ludicris. If they get sued it is not because of a bug patch but because of what they allready did, and would not be the patches fault.

As for the skins I think we should use them but I am not shure if we should use pmdt's version.... maybe a replica made by someone else with a few changes? Like make puffs headband a little bigger?

 

[Rᴏb]

Any continued development, whether it's bug fixes or whatever, will put the PMDT at risk. The only option is to stick with 3.6.

 

[ECHOnce]

Any continued development, whether it's bug fixes or whatever, will put the PMDT at risk. The only option is to stick with 3.6.

Explain. If you make a claim that has been argued as the contrary, back it up with evidence/reasoning.

 

[GP&B]

Why do you think they full-stop halted development instead of giving us at least the Halloween update with new alts and bug fixes? If you're questioning the risk involved, you should question why the team didn't do something as small as this.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not accepting and advising others to not accept any version other than 3.6.

I want a consistent version hosted and unless you can push that to be the main version I will not support it, even if it is just bug fixes.

 

[ECHOnce]

Why do you think they full-stop halted development instead of giving us at least the Halloween update with new alts and bug fixes? If you're questioning the risk involved, you should question why the team didn't do something as small as this.

It is clear that they ended production immediately, without releasing further content, because they needed to avoid one of a few hypoethetical things. As pointed in my previous post, these are:

1) any progression of the game whatsoever at the hands of the PMDT, and 2) new "tangible" content that was not previously featured in 3.6. By tangible, I mean...things that are apparent to the human eye; "new content" that could potentially be at copyright risk or whatever. Like costumes, other visual aesthetics, characters, any new moves, etc.

Full post for more reasoning on why I believe what content are safe/unsafe for PMDT. None of us want to use anything that would bring even the slightest risk to PMDT, but blatantly dismissing further modding whatsoever is silly. When looking for the best possible outcome/whatever, in anything, you should always give reasonable doubt to every argument available and see what benefits it has to offer. Sort through what is/isn't capable of bringing harm to PMDT, salvage what we can (whether that's actual features, or ideas/intentions), and use it to make a better PM Gold. That is, make a community build with potential to be better. And if that isn't up to par, then it serves to justify how good the vanilla 3.6 is as the best option for Gold. We shouldn't cut off our options though.

We can stay safe with 3.6 as Gold, which is a perfectly reasonable opinion. But all these dismissive "no any other argument is bad and you're putting people at risk for even considering otherwise" statements aren't a valid argument. They're not looking into why it's dangerous, and labeling everything as such. That's not productive.

 

[trash?]

I would argue how a new team of completely random people have a questionable future, but now I don't need to, since they did it for me

PM was not just something made by random coders and ideas guys, from a purely technical (non-legal, meaning) standpoint there's far more finesse required than what those who keep trying these "new PMDev" teams have

 

[Rᴏb]

Explain. If you make a claim that has been argued as the contrary,

It hasn't. If you think it has, you simply don't understand the scope of the risk involved.

 

[Mage.]

I would argue how a new team of completely random people have a questionable future, but now I don't need to, since they did it for me

PM was not just something made by random coders and ideas guys, from a purely technical (non-legal, meaning) standpoint there's far more finesse required than what those who keep trying these "new PMDev" teams have

Oh wow that was actually incredibly quick lol. Well, guess that settles that. Let the meta begin I guess.

 

[fsck!]

Guys. What the hell. BUGFIXES will not put them in danger, Especially if it wasn't made by the project m dev team. What you are saying is absolutly ludicris. If they get sued it is not because of a bug patch but because of what they allready did, and would not be the patches fault.

As for the skins I think we should use them but I am not shure if we should use pmdt's version.... maybe a replica made by someone else with a few changes? Like make puffs headband a little bigger?

Any continued development at all.


Personally, I'm considering dropping PM purely because the community can't figure out what it wants to do knowing damn well that if they do much of anything the original creators will get rekt. I don't want part of screwing someone innocent over.

 

[Mage.]

Any continued development at all.


Personally, I'm considering dropping PM purely because the community can't figure out what it wants to do knowing damn well that if they do much of anything the original creators will get rekt. I don't want part of screwing someone innocent over.

Well, the "New" Dev team was just disbanded so afaik no one else is working on anything else. Personally, maybe, but not to distribute to the community. 3.6 is here to stay, so don't leave just because we've hit a bump in the road. If you hit the bump just stand back up and keep walking.

I guess this thread is pointless now and I definitely wouldn't mind getting it locked. 3.6 is our home now.
Now then, about squirtle being the only S tier character