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Discussion: Build agreement and the future of PM

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ECHOnce

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It hasn't. If you think it has, you simply don't understand the scope of the risk involved.
Doesn't really matter anymore, but for what it's worth, check my first before the first one you responded to. I had argued the contrary to your claims. "You guys don't understand _____ so there's no point in explaining myself" gets people nowhere. I was asking you to give me reasons why, to prove to me why I should believe in your vague claims.

Tip: Your word will generally only carry as much weight in a discussion as the extents to which you're willing to explain it, acknowledging others' ideas, and progressing the discussion towards its goal. In case this helps you in the future...you met none of these.
 

Rᴏb

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Doesn't really matter anymore, but for what it's worth, check my first before the first one you responded to. I had argued the contrary to your claims. "You guys don't understand _____ so there's no point in explaining myself" gets people nowhere. I was asking you to give me reasons why, to prove to me why I should believe in your vague claims.

Tip: Your word will generally only carry as much weight in a discussion as the extents to which you're willing to explain it, acknowledging others' ideas, and progressing the discussion towards its goal. In case this helps you in the future...you met none of these.
I trust you to figure it out yourself :)
 

interpunct

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I believe a community bug fix build would go a very long way. It doesn't really hurt anyone and the extra costumes would be very nice since again it's just a cosmetic change, it doesn't have to be released under the PMDT name that's for sure, I have the dev and the costumes are done for the most part so yeah.
 

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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I hold two opinions:

1. For now, we fix the bugs and use that as the standard version.
2. If, in the future, Knuckles and Lyn are completed by fans and the result product is considered satisfactory by most, we move on to a build with those two characters. Perhaps continue balancing just those two characters if one proves over- or underpowered.

I agree with the opinion that older characters can survive without balance changes, as without a central committee to decide as the final say what is or isn't balanced, we'd have far more in-fighting than necessary about who does/doesn't deserve buffs/nerfs with people who main said characters likely having bias.

Bugfixes, then eventually adding the two almost-finished characters if the community agrees they're well-done, would be the optimal solution for me. I'm ambivalent about custom costumes and stages (as long as the primary competitive stages are left alone), because even at tournies you'll see people with builds deviating from standard, custom costumes and music and such.


EDIT: And the claims that bugfixes will put PMDT further at risk is absolutely ridiculous. Playing Project M at all puts PMDT at risk. Spreading 3.6 and having more people download it puts PMDT at risk. If you're so concerned about PMDT's safety, you should all be advocating everyone ceasing to play Project M in general and only play official Smash games. I haven't seen anyone here advocate that, so legal matters should not be a concern when determining which version to play, as spreading 3.6.1 is just as big a risk as spreading 3.6f.
 
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Paquito

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did you read what strong bad said on the homepage of smashboards

play 3.6
The point of his post was he didn't want to see the community divided over different versions of PM. I see absolutely no reason why the community would be divided over a version that is released *strictly* to fix bugs. Further, a bug-fix only version wouldn't be introducing the new content that was threatening to bring down Nintendo's wrath, so I don't buy that this would put the PM team at any additional risk, especially since that organization is officially disbanded.
 

xquqx

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Further, a bug-fix only version wouldn't be introducing the new content that was threatening to bring down Nintendo's wrath, so I don't buy that this would put the PM team at any additional risk, especially since that organization is officially disbanded.
"I have no idea what the pmdt's lawyer said, but I must know more about the risks involved than them!"
 

Paquito

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"I have no idea what the pmdt's lawyer said, but I must know more about the risks involved than them!"
They stopped hosting the PM downloads, but seem to have no problem allowing a stickied thread here to mirrors that provide the downloads. There's absolutely no reason why a bug-fix only version of PM, produced by unaffiliated developers, would expose them to any more legal risk than mirroring PM files here do.
 

fsck!

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They stopped hosting the PM downloads, but seem to have no problem allowing a stickied thread here to mirrors that provide the downloads. There's absolutely no reason why a bug-fix only version of PM, produced by unaffiliated developers, would expose them to any more legal risk than mirroring PM files here do.
There's no way adding more water to my cup will ever make a mess. It's just a little more water.
 

interpunct

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There's no way adding more water to my cup will ever make a mess. It's just a little more water.
That is not what he says at all. PMDT is the cup and they are gone now. So this is another cup if anything.
 

darklink1996

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I am of the opinion that a small bugfix wouldn't put PM into any more hot water than they are already in, particularly since tournaments are still being hosted. However, we should let things cool down for a bit, and let the aftershock of the disbandment fade. We'll never figure out what to do with so much salt and hot blood.
 

fsck!

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That is not what he says at all. PMDT is the cup and they are gone now. So this is another cup if anything.
Just because their club stopped calling themselves PMDT doesn't magically mean the members themselves immune to the law.
 

Joshichimaru

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This thread was made before he made that post but I wholeheartedly agree. The issue is that there are already people working to implement Lyn and Knuckles on reddit and that's my main concern. The fact that there are already people moving to continue the torch is already a threat to dividing the community even further. What worries me even more is that no one seems to give a **** about the consequences.
I'll happily have a divided community if Knuckles is added to the game. If we are going to settle on a version that is not the official 3.6 Version then I wan't all the extra content included, arguing that balancing is an issue is just a weak grounds for an objection to changes. Issac not being in the final build is fair but players have been waiting forever for Knuckles and Lyn to be released I think it's only fair they are completed, to complete what could have been the true final build.
 

xquqx

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I'll happily have a divided community if Knuckles is added to the game. If we are going to settle on a version that is not the official 3.6 Version then I wan't all the extra content included, arguing that balancing is an issue is just a weak grounds for an objection to changes. Issac not being in the final build is fair but players have been waiting forever for Knuckles and Lyn to be released I think it's only fair they are completed, to complete what could have been the true final build.
"I'll happily kill project m and put the dev team at legal risk if it means I get to use an unfinished, unbalanced character! It's only fair, after all."
 

interpunct

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Just because their club stopped calling themselves PMDT doesn't magically mean the members themselves immune to the law.
Please tell me how PMDT will be affected by this if there is someone else unrelated to them is adding stuff to their game?

I'm guessing you have never heard of the multiple PM fan builds.

If you're so worried for PMDT getting in trouble you should just stop playing the game altogether.
 

Paquito

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Just because their club stopped calling themselves PMDT doesn't magically mean the members themselves immune to the law.
If this were legitimately a concern, the PM devs would never have given their blessing to host mirrors of the existing version on this website.

At this point, it's certain that someone outside the PM is going to grab their source and do something new with it. So I guess we'll see. But, IMO, it makes absolutely no sense for Nintendo to risk a public relations disaster by throwing the hammer at the PM team after they've formally disbanded and stripped their website bare.
 
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Mage.

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I'll happily have a divided community if Knuckles is added to the game. If we are going to settle on a version that is not the official 3.6 Version then I wan't all the extra content included, arguing that balancing is an issue is just a weak grounds for an objection to changes. Issac not being in the final build is fair but players have been waiting forever for Knuckles and Lyn to be released I think it's only fair they are completed, to complete what could have been the true final build.
Weak grounds for an objection to changes? So if Knuckles or Lyn is literally broken as all hell and easily contests with 95% of the cast, so much so the point I ask myself why bother pick anyone else cuz they are free wins, we should just leave it as is? Balancing would be an issue because there is no dev team anymore.

Anyone or any group who would decide to finish the characters and attempt to balance them and the rest of the game have no ground to do so. I mean hell, the PMDT got flak for every balance patch, even if they pushed the game in the right direction i.e. 3.5 patch. Everyone went with it though because they were the ones who made PM. Now imagine you have some random group of guys who decide to balance the game their own way, Imagine all the crap they would get. That and it wouldn't be PMDT's vision of how to balance the game anymore because it isn't the same group of people, so the design philosophies will be different.

Anyway, at this point it doesn't matter what we want. Pretty much everyone (TO's, people online, etc) are unanimously sticking with 3.6. AFAIK no one is working on bug fixes and even if they were, many have agreed to wait months/years for the dust to settle before implementing them.
 

Vigilante

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Stick to 3.6. If we start making other builds, this will create rifts and confusion withib the community. If you want to use leaked content in private, fine, but keep them out of tournaments.

For asthetics, I would not oppose adding costumes made by official PMDT like Pik. However, nothing else should ever be changed, at least when it comes to tournaments
 

fsck!

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Please tell me how PMDT will be affected by this if there is someone else unrelated to them is adding stuff to their game?

I'm guessing you have never heard of the multiple PM fan builds.

If you're so worried for PMDT getting in trouble you should just stop playing the game altogether.
We don't know all the details. All we know is that the PMDT said to not develop on the game, and given their lack of information on the matter, it's likely some legal funny business they don't want to tell us. If it wasn't legal issues, they wouldn't have removed the PM download entirely, just all the obvious means of accessing it.

If this were legitimately a concern, the PM devs would never have given their blessing to host mirrors of the existing version on this website.

At this point, it's certain that someone outside the PM is going to grab their source and do something new with it. So I guess we'll see. But, IMO, it makes absolutely no sense for Nintendo to risk a public relations disaster by throwing the hammer at the PM team after they've formally disbanded and stripped their website bare.
They can't control what people do. If they gave permission or not is irrelevant because they're trying to shuffle PM under the rug. Here's an example I used in another thread:

Just speculation here. If Nintendo knew about PM this whole time, but didn't say anything, and now a new company comes by and says "We want our guy in your game, but we're not certain how well you defend your IP *points at PM*" Nintendo is put in a very bad position. This is just one of many scenarios being passed around as possibilities. I have no proof this is the actual scenario.
 

zpxociv

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I wonder if we find out in January if the PMDT gets sued or not. Are they on edge? Will the new PMDT that formed after Evolution provoke this with its first update or even from the new stuff with Knux that's already been released? The suspense.. can you feel it?
 

Paquito

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They can't control what people do. If they gave permission or not is irrelevant because they're trying to shuffle PM under the rug. Here's an example I used in another thread:
That example isn't remotely realistic. The point of IP laws like copywrite is to prevent people from inappropriately earning monetary profit from someone else's work. The litmus test over whether or not a violation has occurred has been, historically, whether or not someone is charging money / earning a profit.

Over the last 10-15 years corporations have been lobbying for legislation to blur that line, for the purposes of making it easier for them to prosecute piracy. (i.e. downloading games for free rather than paying for them). The bluring of these lines is what put PM in a legal grey area.

Still, PM clearly wasn't promoting or enabling piracy, and there's absolutely no reason why the existence of PM, as they had set it up, would pose a realistic threat to anyone's trademark or copyrighted work. If PM had the funds to fight a lawsuit, they'd have a real chance of winning.

That's not to say the PM team's decision was irrational. They don't have the funds to pay for a legal defense in the first place, and the downside risk of losing the lawsuit is way too severe to warrant taking that risk. But there's no reason to be charitable to Nintendo here. If they really were about to throw the book at the PM team, they weren't doing it because of any real harm to their product, they were doing it because of their f--ked up pride. They were pissed that PM was getting as many entrants as Melee, and got even more pissed off when PM started delivering new content.

It's a shame the PM team can't afford to fight this. Like I said up-thread, if this actually happened, it would have been a public relations disaster for Nintendo. As it is now, I've sworn off them. They're dead to me as a company.
 
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If they did throw the book at Project M, it's almost certainly not because of some petty reasoning. Companies don't like throwing their legal weight around just because of small reasons and neither does the legal system itself; if Nintendo was ever to sue Project M, it'd be to protect their copyrights and ensure they don't fall into public domain, not because it's popular. This is the exact reason that Hasbro was forced into shutting down Fighting is Magic; companies would rather take the PR blow of shutting down the project over the far worse outcome of losing the copyrights altogether.

It doesn't matter to them if PM was promoting piracy or not. They certainly wouldn't give a damn about entrant levels in tournaments. What they give a damn about is keeping their IP's and not finding themselves in a bad legal situation. If they let this continue, who knows if the repurcussions might have been losing the rights to their own characters or game. If they did issue PM's shutting, it was entirely due to the legal system and their need to protect their copyrights.
 

Paquito

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If they did throw the book at Project M, it's almost certainly not because of some petty reasoning. Companies don't like throwing their legal weight around just because of small reasons and neither does the legal system itself; if Nintendo was ever to sue Project M, it'd be to protect their copyrights and ensure they don't fall into public domain, not because it's popular. This is the exact reason that Hasbro was forced into shutting down Fighting is Magic; companies would rather take the PR blow of shutting down the project over the far worse outcome of losing the copyrights altogether.

It doesn't matter to them if PM was promoting piracy or not. They certainly wouldn't give a damn about entrant levels in tournaments. What they give a damn about is keeping their IP's and not finding themselves in a bad legal situation. If they let this continue, who knows if the repurcussions might have been losing the rights to their own characters or game. If they did issue PM's shutting, it was entirely due to the legal system and their need to protect their copyrights.
"Fighting is Magic"'s case is different... they were earning revenue off of the IP. That they were donating it to charity didn't make too much of a difference here
 
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T-skjorte Ninja

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Eh, personally, I can accept any hange. I let the community decide, and then go with the flow.

If they did throw the book at Project M, it's almost certainly not because of some petty reasoning. Companies don't like throwing their legal weight around just because of small reasons and neither does the legal system itself; if Nintendo was ever to sue Project M, it'd be to protect their copyrights and ensure they don't fall into public domain, not because it's popular. This is the exact reason that Hasbro was forced into shutting down Fighting is Magic; companies would rather take the PR blow of shutting down the project over the far worse outcome of losing the copyrights altogether.

It doesn't matter to them if PM was promoting piracy or not. They certainly wouldn't give a damn about entrant levels in tournaments. What they give a damn about is keeping their IP's and not finding themselves in a bad legal situation. If they let this continue, who knows if the repurcussions might have been losing the rights to their own characters or game. If they did issue PM's shutting, it was entirely due to the legal system and their need to protect their copyrights.
Ah so it's true. The rule I thought was too stupid to exist about losing your IP to the public domain did exist. That's just terrible.
 

Narpas_sword

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They stopped hosting the PM downloads, but seem to have no problem allowing a stickied thread here to mirrors that provide the downloads. There's absolutely no reason why a bug-fix only version of PM, produced by unaffiliated developers, would expose them to any more legal risk than mirroring PM files here do.
That's a great thing to ask a lawyer
 

EmptySky00

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imo 3.6 is ****ing boring because everyone was too caught up in their idiotic bureaucracy and anti-SDI **** sucking brigade that they failed to retain any direction when designing the game as though they had infinite time to get it right.


Surprise mother****ers. Now none of your stupid opinions matter and we're stuck with a bland version. Nice going.


If we could establish a universal use of the bug fixes that would be the optimal solution to this mess imo. I just want my character to work /selfinterest
 
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trash?

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this version is fine, people are doing better with your character while you're moaning that nothing's right enough, you're a baby
 
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lol i'm gonna make a generic ****post to try and rile people up because I'm superior to you.

Seriously, elitism and "But they SHOULD say "**** you" to the legal system just to work on the mod!" is going to get us nowhere fast.
 

Narpas_sword

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imo 3.6 is ****ing boring because everyone was too caught up in their idiotic bureaucracy and anti-SDI **** sucking brigade that they failed to retain any direction when designing the game as though they had infinite time to get it right.


Surprise mother****ers. Now none of your stupid opinions matter and we're stuck with a bland version. Nice going.


If we could establish a universal use of the bug fixes that would be the optimal solution to this mess imo. I just want my character to work /selfinterest
Would much rather be stuck with what we have now than 3.02 where links boomerang was it's own character.
 

IronChar

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3.02 was ****ed yet fun in a crazy way....

ultimately the new releases are better for competitive play, that's what the game is about.

build the metta
 

EmptySky00

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Would much rather be stuck with what we have now than 3.02 where links boomerang was it's own character.
Completely irrelevant to my argument.

And I'd rather 3.02 where the game was still actually fun. Idk why everyone has to incessantly forge the opportunity to bemoan a character in a version that's 2 years past. There were better characters in that game need I remind you, why don't we ***** about them for a change? Or better yet drop talk of 3.02 altogether because it doesn't actually matter anymore.


Edit: I meant to come back to this but didn't feel like digging for this thread again. If we could have a way to universalize the leaked 3.61 without putting the PMDT in the path of the legal **** train, then I think that would be the optimal solution. The changes are generally so minor that it isn't going to alter the metagame so I don't see why anyone would be opposed to it. It just fixes a few things and makes the game feel *slightly* more complete.


It's still just as boring as 3.6 though.
 
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zpxociv

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Project Meltdown is still a Fox circlejerk, just like Melee. Also f*** Bowser, for some reason. Why did PMDT need to poopa on king koopa?
 

Narpas_sword

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Completely irrelevant to my argument.

And I'd rather 3.02 where the game was still actually fun. Idk why everyone has to incessantly forge the opportunity to bemoan a character in a version that's 2 years past. There were better characters in that game need I remind you, why don't we ***** about them for a change? Or better yet drop talk of 3.02 altogether because it doesn't actually matter anymore.


Edit: I meant to come back to this but didn't feel like digging for this thread again. If we could have a way to universalize the leaked 3.61 without putting the PMDT in the path of the legal **** train, then I think that would be the optimal solution. The changes are generally so minor that it isn't going to alter the metagame so I don't see why anyone would be opposed to it. It just fixes a few things and makes the game feel *slightly* more complete.


It's still just as boring as 3.6 though.
I actually can't take the opinion of someone who thinks 3.02 as more fun than 3.6 seriously.

Just a shortcoming of my own.
 

EmptySky00

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I actually can't take the opinion of someone who thinks 3.02 as more fun than 3.6 seriously.

Just a shortcoming of my own.
A lot of people think that actually. It's more fun to play with explosives than it is to play with cardboard boxes. Get real.


I didn't say it was a better or more balanced game, but that it was more fun. Ad hominem harder m8.
 
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Rawkobo

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A lot of people think that actually. It's more fun to play with explosives than it is to play with cardboard boxes. Get real.


I didn't say it was a better or more balanced game, but that it was more fun. Ad hominem harder m8.
it's overwhelmingly the current opinion of top players in md/va outside of junebug

of course, the same players also believe that somehow if md/va goes back to playing 3.02 they'll still be relevant in 3.6 against other regions, outside of junebug

tiny problem there.
 

EmptySky00

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it's overwhelmingly the current opinion of top players in md/va outside of junebug

of course, the same players also believe that somehow if md/va goes back to playing 3.02 they'll still be relevant in 3.6 against other regions, outside of junebug

tiny problem there.
I certainly don't think going back to 3.02 outside of for drunken parties is a good idea. I personally prefer 3.5 out of all of them because it was still a fun game. The direction 3.6 took was a poor one. The criticism has already been made that it just had no direction (presumably because the Dev Team preferred to bicker over irrelevant ideological **** like SDI modifiers vs contrived angles and hitboxes to make multi-hits work) but the understanding or assumption until The Catastrophe was that they'd have time to fix it and make it so half the cast didn't feel like underpowered garbage, and the entirety of my patience with the game was based on that hope. I've stated before that my continuing to play is out of a hollow sense of duty to try and keep the game alive when we need to most, not because I particularly enjoy it. And honestly, it's a really ****ty reason to play if not for the enjoyment of the game. It's just tragic to me.


I still wish we could implement 3.61 as the main version. But not at the expense of the dev team getting hammered. Except the anti-SDI mod idiots. They can get sued for their minds and souls for all I care.

'Twas not to be I'm afraid.
 
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zpxociv

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The only "fun" game is stamina with no blast zones, 2.0 damage, fixed camera, 990 HP, all items, mega-size, turbo, 4-players, auto l-cancel, all stages allowed random picked. Tourney pro-wannabes know nothing of fun.
 
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