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Difficulties in facing fast and evasive opponents

MateS

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
1
Hello everyone!

This thread is going to be about the difficulties in facing opponents that are playing characters with high mobility and evasiveness. I've always enjoyed playing more aggressive as Zelda; I usually was the type that recklessly went for up-b attempts and dash attacking without second thought. However, I've grown to be more patient and this has rewarded me very much in terms of a increased win-rate overall.

Moving higher up in the rankings I've found that opponents are quick to adapt to the more defensive nature of my play nowadays. I feel that this results in games almost always reaching the time-limit. I've identified one major trend I've been seeing from players with quick characters:

They begin playing extremely defensive themselves. Examples of this behavior includes running away and evading my every move or camping at the other side of the map. I've had several fights where they seriously just dodge and jump/run fast away from every attack I make. I simply cannot keep up with the speed as Zelda is very slow.

I do not intend this post to be a whiny rant, but I have to say that it feels awful to play against this.

Does anyone else share this experience? How do you cope with fast characters that play very defensive and evasive?!
 

StoicPhantom

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 11, 2018
Messages
618
Hi!

They begin playing extremely defensive themselves. Examples of this behavior includes running away and evading my every move or camping at the other side of the map. I've had several fights where they seriously just dodge and jump/run fast away from every attack I make. I simply cannot keep up with the speed as Zelda is very slow.
This sounds very much like you're trying to chase them. Never chase these characters because they are looking to make you overextend and whiff punish you, something that is very easy for Zelda to do. As you've found out, she is too slow and her burst options aren't safe. I find Zelda's speed sits in a particular niche where you are tempted to do things you would with fast characters, but she should probably be considered more along the lines of a traditional heavy character.

What you need to do in these situations is severely limit their movement options and slow them down to Zelda's pace. The easiest and best way to achieve this is through Phantom Knight. I know people tend to write it off as a gimmick and say good opponents are too smart for that, but it is very powerful with the proper spacing.


Consider that the final charge's hitbox swings up roughly 4 big squares vertically in the Training Mode stage. That's enough to catch every full hop I can think of right now. The hitbox is a bit janky in that it doesn't seem to be active throughout the full back swing, but if you space at five big squares horizontally from your opponent, you'll be able to catch a neutral short hop or full hop. On Battlefield that would be roughly in the center of the stage.

That means that the opponent would either have to commit to a defensive option like shield or roll or they would have to jump forward or backward or burn their double jump. If they are ledge camping they can't jump backwards. The final charge detethering from Zelda means she is free to cover every other option, such as roll or shield.

Consider Fsmash's range is roughly 2 big squares horizontally. If you walk a couple steps after fully charging Phantom then you can catch everything from roll to a forward jump or directional airdodge. If your opponent tries to go over you entirely, Up-Tilt, Up-Smash, and Up-air are all available to catch airdodges, double jumps, and aerials. Should he try to directional airdodge down through Phantom, dash attack, grab, and running Up-Smash is available with the right timing.


Learning how to zone with Phantom is tricky and probably the hardest thing about her, but it is essential. Maybe not for all or even most MUs, but these ones for sure. It's an extension of her neutral, so the ability to read and react to your opponent is essential. You need to understand the options your opponent has at each distance and out of each counter option they do against Phantom. That ups the learning curve quite a bit, but your reward is arguably the best projectile in the game that borders on overpowered.

Learn optimal Phantom positions to be in on every stage and focus on taking those positions. Center stage is powerful on Battlefield and will cover almost every option your opponent takes.


As far as the general idea of dealing with defensive play goes, you need to be even more patient than your opponent. I don't know what ruleset you regularly play on that leads to frequent near timeouts, but if they are that frequent, you are either not playing a competitive ruleset (3 stocks, 7 minutes) or you're not optimizing your advantage enough. Or you're playing online, which is another beast entirely. Timeouts are fine so long as you have the lead, so I wouldn't worry too much about things going near the limit.

Why I advocate for Phantom is that it allows you to safely poke outside of your opponent's whiff punish range. Being able to safely fish for a setup is huge on camping opponents, because it is only a matter of time until you get lucky or they screw up. That signals to them that they probably shouldn't let you freely spam it for long.


But in the case that you can't use for Phantom for whatever reason, you need to think smaller on this. Don't think of things in broad terms like he airdodges so you have to chase and punish or be faster than him or whatever. Instead, think of smaller victories like gaining more space and stage control or being able to safely encroach into his space and be in position to punish his mistakes. Those little victories are ultimately what setup big plays.

If you are fighting for center stage and he jumps over you, don't chase him and try to punish. Turn to face him instead and take advantage of the fact that he just gave you center stage, where you now have the ability to Phantom zone. I see a lot of Zelda players blindly chase their opponent in this situation and not only give up the advantage they just got, but get whiffed punished as the icing on the cake.

If your opponent is camping on a bottom platform and is repeatedly jumping, don't chase with an aerial and don't try to pressure him with Up-Tilt (-15 on shield means he can escape easily). Move as close to the platform while still being roughly at center stage instead and watch him closely. If he's alternating between short hop and double jump, watch for patterns and pounce when he's going to use his double jump. Zelda's Up-air is big enough she can get away with only a short hop or full hop Up-air in most cases. He can't really do much else safely there and has to chose between dropping through the platform right in front of you or going on the attack.


I know that it is difficult to see this with the illusion of freedom Smash gives, but it's not that much more free than a traditional fighting game. What might seem like complete movement freedom for these quick characters is really just them giving up space. You need to be the choke point and cut off that movement after they've given up space. Be it with Phantom or with Zelda herself.

And that's what you ultimately need to do. You need to tyrannize your opponent with space. Even if you aren't actually doing anything, just making them think you could pounce at any moment is already putting pressure on them. Find where you can halt them for maximum stage control and keep them there. Think of a large bubble around the stage with the focal point being center stage. If you can put a wall around there, your opponent will always in some form of space deficit. And the more he pulls back, the more you can push that wall towards him and the less space he has to work with.


What you are describing sounds like kiting, which is something that isn't easy to deal with for even other fast characters. It's not a Zelda exclusive issue. And the way to break kiting is what I've laid out above. You just need to be patient and aware of the overall state of battle.
 

Oz o:

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 11, 2019
Messages
214
I think I know what you mean. VoiD covered a similiar topic, in one of his videos. It's a lot easier to hit lower level opponents because they'll do very linear things, such as rolling or jumping, while better players will likely do more things like dashing back, jumping while trying to bait a reaction out of you, and things like that. If you see them roll away from you, just Dash attack. If they roll behind you, you can either Dash Attack or Ftilt (slower, might not hit if they shield). If they jump back or towards you, you anticipate it with a Nair or an Utilt.

I never felt Zelda was nearly as slow as people make her out to be, and I think it has to do more with the player. People say she's slow, but then never really utilize her fast moves or movement options as much as I do. This doesn't mean you'll be aggressive and reckless as I am, it just means you'll be a lot faster with your reactions and punishes. Just because Zelda is supposed to play defensive doesn't mean she can't be fast, and let alone with your own reactions. I'm very used to playing fast and aggressive characters, and even more so than other campy or defensive characters. I prefer it, even. It simplifies having to complicate neutral, since they just bring the fight over to me.

If she's moving slow for you, incorporate more foxthots and fastfalls and autocancels into your game.
 

Lacrimosa

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 31, 2019
Messages
1,255
Location
Germany
I think I know what you mean. VoiD covered a similiar topic, in one of his videos. It's a lot easier to hit lower level opponents because they'll do very linear things, such as rolling or jumping, while better players will likely do more things like dashing back, jumping while trying to bait a reaction out of you, and things like that. If you see them roll away from you, just Dash attack. If they roll behind you, you can either Dash Attack or Ftilt (slower, might not hit if they shield). If they jump back or towards you, you anticipate it with a Nair or an Utilt.

I never felt Zelda was nearly as slow as people make her out to be, and I think it has to do more with the player. People say she's slow, but then never really utilize her fast moves or movement options as much as I do. This doesn't mean you'll be aggressive and reckless as I am, it just means you'll be a lot faster with your reactions and punishes. Just because Zelda is supposed to play defensive doesn't mean she can't be fast, and let alone with your own reactions. I'm very used to playing fast and aggressive characters, and even more so than other campy or defensive characters. I prefer it, even. It simplifies having to complicate neutral, since they just bring the fight over to me.

If she's moving slow for you, incorporate more foxthots and fastfalls and autocancels into your game.
One thing that also compensates her speed is the Phantom because it has range and moves kinda fast on its own when released.

That very's useful for ledgetrapping as I think it'a top-tier move in this regard.
It's also difficult to properly avoid phantom when it'S positioned correctly but as said by the others, don't overextend because you feel Zelda herself can't cover the space in time. That makes you set up the Phantom to close at the ledge, which is easier for the opponent to avoid in my experience.
If the opponent is on stage then it's the same thing but you get punished hard if you get to close to the opponent when using Phantom.

It is actually a lot trial and error where and when to set it up specifically and what of the 5 Phantom stages you want to use.
Just don't set it up from the other side of the stage and spam Din's Fire. Zelda can'T force approaches if Phantom is set up too far away.
I know it sounds obvious but just be aware of that.

I mean, we all have made the experience to get timed out. I only play Wi-Fi, can't go to tournaments (and I don't talk about the Covid-Times) but the thing that beats Zelda are opponents that just don't really engage with you and play a hit-and-run kind of gameplan. Inkling is incredibly good at this but also ZSS or Greninja for example.
First you have to be aware what makes these characters so good against her and that's a good dash speed and good air speed+acceleration, so they have both a good ground and air game, unlike a characters like Wario, who "struggles" on the ground. As you've said, they try to make them get chased by Zelda. It's easier said than done but stay patient and try looking up what beats these characters and go with this, so you have to ask yourself how she does win these exchanges. One thing to do is slowong down the game's pace. Don't get confused by their fast movements of dashing back and forth.
Zelda has a good enough OoS game for that, so she won't be stuck into shielding even when pressured and of course a Phantom.

i feel like repeating the points that are made by S StoicPhantom but these are really important ones and you have to train this mentality (I think not even a single player can keep their cool for the entirety of a set, not even ven, against really good opponents) or you just get blown up. We all are nowhere close to trash on the character in the way of "She can't do X and Y, so I lost" when losing. Zelda is hard to play and she needs a patient mentality to be played well and one thing to start is: Not getting made confused by fast moving characters which requires time of course.
 
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