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Different Lucas combo and a side note on edgeguarding

Tyr_03

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Down Throw to PK Thunder. Works exceptionally well at low percentages, does more damage than Dthrow to Utilt or Dthrow to Uair does and if you use it correctly won't leave you open for punishment.

As an extension to this, Dthrow followed by PK Thunder, loop the thunder down and behind you so that the point where the head and tail meet hits the opponent. If you place it correctly the opponent will be sent in front of you. You can follow this up with a PKT2 directly into the opponent causing up to 50 some odd percent depending on how you place it. Works most reliably with the heavies. Does not work at higher percentages. Make sure you don't kill yourself by PKT2 off a ledge. You can also catch heavies in the tail of PKT1 trapping them and hitting them with the first knockback hit of PKT2 but it's harder to do. Depending on how they DI you will have to adjust your trajectory or leave out the PKT2 if they DI in in the direction you're facing. It doesn't work very well for lighter characters so I'd suggest just PKT1 them.

While I'm on the subject of PKT I'd like mention the most effective ways to use it as an edgeguarding technique. I mention in my thread on PK Thunder properties that hitting with the head of PKT1 sends the opponent parallel to the direction of PK Thunder while hitting with the point where the tail meets the head sends them perpindicular to the direction of the PK Thunder. It's also good to note that hitting with JUST the tail, stops all horizontal momentum but has no effect on vertical momentum. PKT1 also has 3 different priorities at different points. The tail has the highest priority (I have yet to find an attack with anything that beats it), the point where the tail meets the head has the next highest and the head itself has the lowest.

What this adds up to is that when edgeguarding it is without a doubt better to loop PK Thunder to hit with the side of the head where it meets the tail rather than sending it straight through. When an opponent is a good bit above you it is generally better to send it up and loop downward because most Up B moves attack upward first and can cancel the thunder if they hit the head. The sending it downward as it approaches the opponent reduces the risk most and sends them in a diagonally upward trajectory which is best for killing. Using an upward loop works too if you don't have time to get above first though.

When edgeguarding a character at your level or below it is generally better to loop upward as you approach the opponent for similar reasons. There is less likelyhood of it being canceled and sends the opponent in a diagonally down trajectory most effectively. If the opponent is close to the stage it may be better to loop downward though in an effort at getting a possible stage spike if they dodge.

Using the tail to gimp recoveries is near impossible. Although it does stop their horizontal momentum, characters fall too slowly for it to cause them to die. However, for characters with predictable recoveries such as Ness, Lucas, Fox, Falco etc. you can use the tail to stop their Up B (which would not be possible with the head due to the lesser priority) and then proceed to hit them. This can be useful if you don't have enough time to hit them before they can use their Up B. It takes some practice to be able to place it right but once you get it it can be amazing for edgeguarding.

Please post any questions and I'll answer them when I have a chance.
 

Levitas

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Tyr, does the PKT have a hurtbox like Rob's top and Lucas/Ness's pk fire? The quick way to test this would be to try to hit the pk thunder with sheik's needles. They only interact with hurtboxes, and pass through most attacks and projectiles.

If it does have a hurtbox, that would explain why the priority is higher at the tail of the PKT.
 

Trozz

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Is PKT really the best option for edgeguarding? I used to use b-air, but PKT is just easier to land. It usually doesn't gimp their recoveries (it might actually assist them), but at least they'll take more damage.
 

Levitas

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Trozz, it's the best option against certain characters for sure (Marth, Ike, and characters with recoveries similar to those two.

Against other characters, it's a good idea to go and edgeguard them in person. And don't use that japanese "tier" thing, it's really misleading what those results actually mean. (they aren't tiers).

That said, the bair edgeguard is the most sexy edgeguard by far.
 

Tyr_03

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For me it mostly depends on where they are and where I am. Sometimes there simply isn't time to safely get out a PK Thunder to edgeguard. Sometimes the opponent is too far out to reach with a bair at the moment and you might as well PK Thunder them. And to Trozz if you're using PK Thunder correctly to edgeguard you will not assist them at all and it can be an extremely deadly edgeguard. Another reason to use PK Thunder over aerials is that nothing that I've found has higher priority than the tail of your PK Thunder which you can use to stop there recoveries and then hit them. So it's altogether much safer if you know how to use it. To answer Levitas's question from earlier, Sheik's needles go right through the tail of PK Thunder.
 

Levitas

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Tyr, not the tail, the bolt. I'm aware that the tail doesn't have a hurtbox (which is NOT a hitbox, it has one of those, characters and blocks have hurboxes whereas most attacks, lasers, and those things have hitboxes), but am wondering if the bolt will cancel a needle like pk fire will. I'll check it in like a minute.

EDIT:
Needles ignore PK Thunder entirely. This means that the pkt doesn't have a hurtbox. So when an attack is used to negate PKT, that means that it clanked or beat the pk thunder, as opposed to hitting a hurtbox that triggers the pkt to fizzle (like hitting pk fire with IC's blizzard).

It also means that Needles can't gimp lucas by hitting his pk thunder, only by hitting him, and then he can just up b again.
 

chubb-o-wub

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This is for edgeguarding: Couldn't you just short-hop PK Fire? I don't have Brawl yet, but does anyone know if Lucas' PK Fire goes in a downward trajectory when used in the air?
 

Trozz

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This is for edgeguarding: Couldn't you just short-hop PK Fire? I don't have Brawl yet, but does anyone know if Lucas' PK Fire goes in a downward trajectory when used in the air?
PK Fire is only useful for edgeguarding if the opponent is approaching the ledge from very high (which most good players won't do; approaching a ledge from below is safer).

It does not go in a downward trajectory.
 

eSilverh

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I find that PKT works well when players are coming from below, because a direct hit with the head often bounces them towards the wall and quickly to their death.
 

pklucas

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i'm not sure i understand how to send them downwards with the pk thunder. do you have a better explanation or video? also do you know the exact timing of his b air i couldn't find it
 

eSilverh

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Sometimes I have been able to hit a recovering opponent as they are coming up from below the ledge. The PKT hits them into the wall and tumbling down.

I guess I meant to add that this mainly works on stages with sides like final D in which there's a curve.
 

Tyr_03

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Yeah PK Thunder is actually incapable of sending opponents downward so stage spike is the only option.
 

slickmasterizzy

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dont forget like ZSS lucas's downsmash will hit slightly below the edge

meaning anyone who uses something to grab it (like a sexy kirby or a marth using up+B) will get hurled away instead.
 

pklucas

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his d air isn't useful for spiking is it? i know it can but around what percentage
 

Tyr_03

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It has to be at pretty high percentages to be good for a spike since there's so little hitstun in Brawl. However, if you do a double jump dair while standing next to an opponent you can DI to drag them off the stage and spike with the 4th hit. Still has to be at a pretty high percentage though. I don't use it for spiking very often.
 

pklucas

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thanks for all the help. you don't know the exact timing of his b air do you? i tried to find out in training but all i figured out was you have to hit when his feet are moving downwards and you have to hit with his feet, not his body
 

Trozz

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The hexagon has a pretty predictable punch to it. You just need to play it enough to get the feel for it. Recently though, I've decided to either go god mode on people worse than me (PKT spam guarding) or use f-air for mad aggression spikes.
 

mNag

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For opponents with 2 jumps or an instant final jump left coming to the edge I: pkfire guard; fair; pkt...

For opponents with a charging final jump I: short-jump pk-magnet float to them and release when they enter my sphere of death.

For opponents who are out of jumps, or can only just make the edge with their final jump, they get D-smashed everytime. Never fails.
 

eSilverh

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I realized that since Lucas has such amazing recovery, I should chase more. So I've been getting myself as far off of the ledge as possible chasing players and I can always make it back. I generally use PKT, though, if I'm not close enough to jump out there in time.
 

Tyr_03

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When opponents are high above the stage you can often even get up close and PKT2 into them for a surprise attack. You'll pretty much always be able to DI back onto the stage. If you do it just right the PKT will hit them away as it comes out of Lucas right into your trajectory for PKT2. It's pretty sweet if you can pull it off without getting hit.
 
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