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Differences between Simon and Richter

Noventiaa

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I think the idea of having an echo fighter of a newcomer is quite interesting, since they act pretty much as equals instead of one being the original. I was wondering what differences Simon and Richter would, gameplay wise, would actually have, since we know literally nothing about that right now - only aesthetic differences. What do you think?

I'm not at all familiar with the Castlevania series, so if anyone who is could say how the characters would probably differ based on their personalities and the like, that'd be neat.
 

Game And Guy

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I came in here for serious answers but yes Richter is definitely the sexier of the two Embarrass
 

Uffe

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Echo fighter is just a nicer word for clone. The only differences between the two, other than the obvious appearance, and different colored Holy Water, is that one will probably be stronger than the other, and one faster than the other. They have the same movesets, just different properties. Think Melee Fox and Melee Falco.
 

Mr Gentleman

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Richter is more sexy
False. we should focus on actual real differences because this is blatantly untrue ;)

actually he mentioned in the direct that their strengths are the same. so their moveset might actually be the same. only just alternate animations for the sake of personality
 
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Banjodorf

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Echo fighter is just a nicer word for clone. The only differences between the two, other than the obvious appearance, and different colored Holy Water, is that one will probably be stronger than the other, and one faster than the other. They have the same movesets, just different properties. Think Melee Fox and Melee Falco.
I think that's all implied to be understood by the thread. I think what's trying to be figured out is if any properties are different, and if so, in what way.
 

MERPIS

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Richter is a fair bit smaller than Simon is, other than that and the different water colors idk.
Also, how do you pronounce Richter correctly? I've been saying it as Rik-ter
 
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SvartWolf

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entioned in the direct that their strengths are the same. so their moveset might actually be the same. only just alternate animations for the sake of personality
i also think that this is the case... i though that it may have different moves when ritcher started pulling ritcher stuns, but then it was confirmed that simon also got them...

I'm also guessing that daisy will be the same to peach too.

Now chrom differences are obvious, but it seems dark samus will have some small differences to its missiles too, since the video kinda hinted it.

And no, echo is not the same than clone... the reason why we have echoes with the very same moveset AND stats when aplicable is becuase balancing 67 character is already a hell. but in melee, clones due to different stats ended being completely differently balanced beasts.

Clone implies that there will be enough differences in stats that the team will need to treat it like a different character. Prime example, marth and roy on melee, and their tiers placements, and marth and lucina on smash4, and their tier placements...

Richter is a fair bit smaller than Simon is, other than that and the different water colors idk.
Also, how do you pronounce Richter correctly? I've been saying it as Rik-ter
i've always pronounced more towards "Rij-ter" frankly...
 
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MERPIS

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i also think that this is the case... i though that it may have different moves when ritcher started pulling ritcher stuns, but then it was confirmed that simon also got them...

I'm also guessing that daisy will be the same to peach too.

Now chrom differences are obvious, but it seems dark samus will have some small differences to its missiles too, since the video kinda hinted it.

And no, echo is not the same than clone... the reason why we have echoes with the very same moveset AND stats when aplicable is becuase balancing 67 character is already a hell. but in melee, clones due to different stats ended being completely differently balanced beasts.

Clone implies that there will be enough differences in stats that the team will need to treat it like a different character. Prime example, marth and roy on melee, and their tiers placements, and marth and lucina on smash4, and their tier placements...



i've always pronounced more towards "Rij-ter" frankly...
According to google and the amazing world of science, it's rik-ter, take the richter scale for example
 

Baddies are back

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Richter is a fair bit smaller than Simon is, other than that and the different water colors idk.
Also, how do you pronounce Richter correctly? I've been saying it as Rik-ter
You're pronouncing it correctly. It's rik-ter.
 

tskidless

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If I had to guess their projectiles will probably function a bit differently, and if I had to guess I'd say that Simon will have better projectiles but Richter will be better at close range with attacks like dash attack, and the slide kick (which I'm assuming is D-Tilt), and the Uppercut since those were his moves.

Simon might be heavier and slower than Richter as well, but watch Simon be able to arc the whip like in Castlevania 4 but Richter can't, Not that will stop me from playing as him.
 

Uffe

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Richter is a fair bit smaller than Simon is, other than that and the different water colors idk.
Also, how do you pronounce Richter correctly? I've been saying it as Rik-ter
It's German, so pronounced riKHter. I have a feeling the US version is going to pronounce it Rickter. You can hear the pronunciation of his name here.
 

Noventiaa

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From what people have said i think they're going to be a pit/dark pit kind of situation, where they're so incredibly similar that it doesn't matter that much. They will still likely have a good one or two things that make me pick one over the other, though.
 

Fell God

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Considering neither is playable in any demo and their differences (aside from aesthetics) weren't discussed, there really isn't anything to say right now. We'll just have to wait.
 

Erimir

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Echo fighter is just a nicer word for clone. The only differences between the two, other than the obvious appearance, and different colored Holy Water, is that one will probably be stronger than the other, and one faster than the other. They have the same movesets, just different properties. Think Melee Fox and Melee Falco.
The only Echo fighters we have significant information about... do not have different speed or strength. Their weight and movement speed are identical.

Dark Pit has a unique Final Smash, and no differences on damage on any moves except Electroshock and his arrows.
Lucina has no tipper mechanic, and damage changes are only meant to compensate for that (they didn't do boost her damage enough to truly compensate though, which is why she's slightly lower on the tier list)

While I'm sure there will be something more consequential than different taunts and idle animation differences, it seems unlikely that they will change movement speed significantly.

We'll just have to wait, since the differences will probably only involve two to four moves.
 
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Jeck

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I've seen the Direct like twice and a half now and the K. Rool trailer about seven times (sue me) and I didn't see anything that separated the two other than what they said about voiceovers and alternate taunts.

But then there's Chrom, who so far is pushing the boundaries of how different we thought an echo was allowed to be. Exciting stuff... you'll notice two on my wishlist have been echoes for a while now. I predict echoes are going to be Sakurai's secret weapons.
 

Oddball

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And no, echo is not the same than clone... the reason why we have echoes with the very same moveset AND stats when aplicable is becuase balancing 67 character is already a hell. but in melee, clones due to different stats ended being completely differently balanced beasts.

Clone implies that there will be enough differences in stats that the team will need to treat it like a different character. Prime example, marth and roy on melee, and their tiers placements, and marth and lucina on smash4, and their tier placements...
Clones and echos are the same thing. Echo is just the new official word for it. Some echos or clones are just more alike than others.

More importantly, when somebody says one, you know what they mean. Don't be one of those people that sits there and nitpicks every little difference.
 

Fenriraga

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Jeez, imagine if Simon had a tipper of some sort and Richter didn't.

I don't want this to be another Marth/Roy/Lucina problem with Marth just objectively being the best. I'd honestly prefer it be more Pit to Dark Pit, even if the differences are minimal.

Mostly, I just don't want Richter to be a worse Simon.
 

Noventiaa

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Jeez, imagine if Simon had a tipper of some sort and Richter didn't.

I don't want this to be another Marth/Roy/Lucina problem with Marth just objectively being the best. I'd honestly prefer it be more Pit to Dark Pit, even if the differences are minimal.

Mostly, I just don't want Richter to be a worse Simon.
The only way i'd be okay with this is if they actually give richter more range than simon, rather than shorter like it is with lucina. (I know lucina's range difference is negligible, but still)
 

Erimir

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Clones and echos are the same thing. Echo is just the new official word for it. Some echos or clones are just more alike than others.
Clone was in the past used for characters with very different base attributes.

For example, Link and Young Link, Pikachu and Pichu, Falcon and Ganondorf. The first two pairs are very different sizes and weights, Ganondorf is much slower (and somewhat heavier) than Falcon. Young Link's range is a lot less, Pichu has the self-damage mechanic. Aside from Young Link and Pichu whose hitboxes vary a lot from their source due to their size, all of the Melee clones have variations in damage/knockback/range/frame data on almost every move.

Echoes by contrast have all been shown as identical or nearly so in size (Lucina being slightly shorter), weight, speed, and most of their moves are completely identical (excluding adjustments for no tipper on Lucina). They can certainly have some differences and some unique moves, but Echoes are more similar to their source than any Melee clones (and clones after Melee tend to be more distinct than that).

So I'd say that an Echo probably has to have these elements:
Nearly identical size, weight and speed (so far we've only seen slight variation in size)
Most, but not all, moves and animations identical including damage/knockback/frame data (excluding taunts, idle animations, entrance and victory poses, etc.). Animations can vary more than hitbox placement... It's not important that Dark Samus doesn't hold her right arm during Charge Shot, for example, since it doesn't affect the move (I suppose it could affect her hurtbox during the move slightly).
 
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S_B

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It's hard to say because, after looking at Chrom who is an amalgam of Roy and Ike, it's clear that Sakurai is willing to take moves from multiple characters and give them to one character (which is fine by me).

Remember, all Simon and Ricky truly need to differentiate them is for their moves to have different knockback directions and there's enough there to have to approach playing as or against them differently.
 

Fell God

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It's hard to say because, after looking at Chrom who is an amalgam of Roy and Ike, it's clear that Sakurai is willing to take moves from multiple characters and give them to one character (which is fine by me).

Remember, all Simon and Ricky truly need to differentiate them is for their moves to have different knockback directions and there's enough there to have to approach playing as or against them differently.
It's a bit of a misconception that Chrom is a chrombination of Roy and Ike, really only his up special is like Ike's (though hopefully he does have more Ike moves like down smash)

But yes, even minor changes can drastically change a playstyle
 
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Uffe

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Jeez, imagine if Simon had a tipper of some sort and Richter didn't.

I don't want this to be another Marth/Roy/Lucina problem with Marth just objectively being the best. I'd honestly prefer it be more Pit to Dark Pit, even if the differences are minimal.

Mostly, I just don't want Richter to be a worse Simon.
Naturally, the tip of the whip for both characters should have a tipper, but I won't be surprised if they don't. In Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance, Juste Belmont got whip upgrades, and they were mostly for the tip of his whip. I think it would be nice if they gave Simon Belmont the Flame Whip that he receives in Castlevania II: Simon's Quest. At least with an RNG when he did any of his smash attacks, sort of like Melee Young Link's dair, or Luigi's side B. Richter is considered one of the strongest Belmont's, so it would make sense for him to be stronger than Simon. Still, hopefully both characters aren't bad, or at least viable.
 

Istry555

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So, the blog post today said Richter's "basic attacks are the same as Simon's, but with subtle variations." If it was a tipper situation, I feel he would have just said so. So, what do you think he means by subtle variations?
 
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Morbi

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So, the blog post today said Richter's "basic attacks are the same as Simon's, but with subtle variations." If it was a tipper situation, I feel he would have just said so. So, what do you think he means by subtle variations?
Probably just different properties, most likely knock-back. The way he phrased it, I have a feeling it is going to be more Dark Pit/Pit and less of Melee Fox/Falco. A bit of a shame as I was more or less planning on one-tricking them and I would hate for their differences to be entirely negligible.
 

Next Door Dog

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So, the blog post today said Richter's "basic attacks are the same as Simon's, but with subtle variations." If it was a tipper situation, I feel he would have just said so. So, what do you think he means by subtle variations?
I'm really curious about dair, have we seen Richter use it? I see a shot in the direct where he uses it, but he doesn't hit anybody with it. It would be incredibly unfortunate if he didn't bounce like Simon does, and it ends up being like Sheik's.

Maybe Richter's signature moves are stronger, but his whip is a bit weaker? I wish one of them had holy water that traveled the ground after it's thrown, since customs don't seem to be coming back. Speaking of specials, the cross distances could vary. Axes look like the same distance, but it's hard to tell (I know I'm gonna have to get used to how far axes travel horizontally in this game).
 

SimonBarSinister

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I'm really curious about dair, have we seen Richter use it? I see a shot in the direct where he uses it, but he doesn't hit anybody with it. It would be incredibly unfortunate if he didn't bounce like Simon does, and it ends up being like Sheik's.

Maybe Richter's signature moves are stronger, but his whip is a bit weaker? I wish one of them had holy water that traveled the ground after it's thrown, since customs don't seem to be coming back. Speaking of specials, the cross distances could vary. Axes look like the same distance, but it's hard to tell (I know I'm gonna have to get used to how far axes travel horizontally in this game).
I'm surprised that didn't happen for :ultrichter: because that's what he did in his game, along with the cross staying suspended in midair for a moment before returning to him. However, the game is not done yet so who knows?
 

nuclearneo577

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I'm sort of expecting the differences to be like Pit and Dark Pit in 4, where the damage and knockback of some attacks is different for both of them, but nothing too major. I hope it's close enough for them to be tied in the tier list, because I'd hate to be forced to use one over the other just because of the properties of one attack that changes things a lot.

If things do end up being this way, it would be kind of fitting for Richter to do slightly more damage with the attacks that are originally from Symphony of the Night (the dash attack, down tilt and up special), and Simon to do more damage with the abilities from Super Castlevania IV (the multi directional whip attacks and the whip twirl).
 
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Noventiaa

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1534207868559.png

Is it just me, or is Richter actually a little bit shorter than Simon here, like Lucina is to Marth?
 

RonNewcomb

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I'm really curious about dair, have we seen Richter use it? I see a shot in the direct where he uses it, but he doesn't hit anybody with it. It would be incredibly unfortunate if he didn't bounce like Simon does, and it ends up being like Sheik's.
.
He'll bounce. Shanoa, Alucard, Soma, Juste, they all bounce. It's a CV staple.
 

Diem

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I'm sort of expecting the differences to be like Pit and Dark Pit in 4, where the damage and knockback of some attacks is different for both of them, but nothing too major. I hope it's close enough for them to be tied in the tier list, because I'd hate to be forced to use one over the other just because of the properties of one attack that changes things a lot.

If things do end up being this way, it would be kind of fitting for Richter to do slightly more damage with the attacks that are originally from Symphony of the Night (the dash attack, down tilt and up special), and Simon to do more damage with the abilities from Super Castlevania IV (the multi directional whip attacks and the whip twirl).
That's where expectations for Echo Fighters generally should be. The whole point is that they are not drastically different, which means they're easier to make and thus they're able to be in the game at all. Clones like Roy, Falco, and Dr. Mario have some more fundamental differences that take more time to implement and balance. Lucina and Dark Pit were essentially alternate costumes given some slight tweaks.

However, unlike Lucina and Dark Pit, these characters are more planned from the beginning, so their differences are a bit more pronounced. Daisy and Dark Samus have totally unique animations to distinguish them from their counterparts. Chrom has Ike's up-b instead of Roy's, also. That's about as major as the differences get. Chrom might've gotten special treatment because Fire Emblem. Richter might get special treatment because he's such a high-profile character compared to the others.

But again, we shouldn't expect anything major.
 
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Bobert

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There aren't any noticeable differences between the two at the moment gameplay wise. I imagine Richter's Final Smash would be Hydro Storm instead of Grand Cross though since it's his best item crash in Rondo, and he outright states it to be his "best attack" in
Symphony of the Night when fighting him as Alucard.
 
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Turnips and Daisies.

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I think the pair are identical in everything but taunts, victory poses, the idle, and the holy water colour.


The attacks are the same as Simon, but the slightest gestures are different.

For someone like Daisy, they said that her "body technique" is the same as Peach's.
 
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Terradrius

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Until they explicitly say "there are no mechanical differences between the two" I'm going to assume that there's at least something, even if it's something like tilts or aerials knock you back at slightly different angles. Otherwise why make them an echo? Why not just handle it like the koopalings or olimar/alph? I don't think it makes sense to give a character that literally plays exactly the same the same their own slot, even if they have a few unique animations.

For that matter, do any of the existing model swaps (corrin, robin, olimar, koopalings, wii fit trainer) have their own animations? I honestly don't know. I suppose that could be evidence one way or the other, though not definitive.
 

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For that matter, do any of the existing model swaps (corrin, robin, olimar, koopalings, wii fit trainer) have their own animations? I honestly don't know. I suppose that could be evidence one way or the other, though not definitive.
No, they do not.

The fact that, according to Sakurai, the first things Echoes get are their unique taunts and victory poses doesn't help any matters.
 
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