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DI Abuse
- Thread starter Papapaint
- Start date
shadydentist
Smash Lord
This is not DI. Its just aerial movement. DI refers specifically to the directional influence of trajectory after getting hit.
What's up with idiots using terms for homosexuality as slurs?
Anyway, it's annoying because it happens every single day (often multiple times a day). People who were too lazy to even scan the first page of this very forum section throw up threads where they claim to have found a new tech and want to name it (thankfully, only DLX has demanded the tech be named after him insofar).
I mean, why do so many people assume they were the first to discover something? Too often, people create a thread about something for which a thread already exists and it's actually on the 1st page of this forum section! That's just being lazy.
Also, a lot of people make up new techniques and strategies and claim they're really, really good when they aren't. People pointing out they aren't is hardly something bad.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
Where the hell do I say that this "technique" is important? I say the new... AERIAL CONTROL... system is important, and it's not "common knowledge," not even amongst competitive players.
To everyone saying "This is Air Control, not DI":
I apologize. I didn't realize that it mattered. If you like, I can change every single time I say "DI" to "Aerial Control."
It still won't change the importance of this at all.
Nemirick, I apologize that you're incapable of reading. I didn't say a **** thing about "Play Anyone," rather, I've been playing most of the top players on WiFi wars, most of whom were also competitive melee players.
And mugwhump, if you want to get the most distance from the attack and the most retreat distance, this is the way to do it.
Sorry, since the poster I quoted claimed people had been saying it's not very useful, I thought I was in one of the inane threads about airdodge-approach or something else equally "not-very-useful". My mistake.
I don't remember saying or seeing someone say "This isn't very useful" in this thread, though.
Also, this is well known among the Competitive community. We've all known about this ever since the 1st week of Dairantou's release when Marth-players worked out ways to abuse it for fair-spamming.
Yes, please do. It's confusing the heck out of everyone who doesn't know. And it's further spreading the misinformation that any time you move in the air, it's DI.
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
I agree that this is known in one sense, but the fact that all of the videos I've seen show Marths trying to Aerial control after they perform an attack, then getting punished because they're still in range leads me to believe that this really isn't as extensive knowledge as I'm been flamed to think, and that many people--including competitive melee players--can benefit from this.
Later today, when I don't have class, I will.
Are you super-duper sure?
It really seems like pressing back the frame after you attack vs. the frame before you attack will give you exactly the same distance (minus whatever DI one frame gets you).
I believe this to be true. Holding back earlier gives you more distance, and that's all there is to it. The attack has nothing to do with it.Are you super-duper sure?
It really seems like pressing back the frame after you attack vs. the frame before you attack will give you exactly the same distance (minus whatever DI one frame gets you).
-Aether
Smash Journeyman
I think this thread suffers from the problem of every other thread in tactics.
1. The technique is common knowledge. I'm sure everyone who played jigglypuff even once in melee understood this. It was vital - this technique was described in the FAQ with double F-airs in the melee 'puff boards.
2. This technique isn't nearly as useful as you're making it out to be. Obviously, you should D.I. backwards when you can avoid being punished. You dont tell people to shield or roll after a wiffed smash attack, do you? Obviously, any attempt to avoid being punished should be common sense.
To expand even more on my last two statements, I'd like to say that D.I. IS a lot better in this game. Wario, Squirtle, Toon Link, 'Puff..they all have insane D.I. A ton more characters can actually preform this effectively. Only marth/puff in the last game could preform spacing like this with aerial D.I. effectively in the last game.
So, yes. It's better in this game.
No, it didn't change anything. Sorry, but that's the facts. Competative smashers in the MD area started doing this at pound 3. That was like, a month ago.
Oh yeah, and I'd like to add it doesn't really matter WHEN you D.I. This should be based on the situation. You shouldnt always start D.I.ing before the aerial.
That is all,
-Aether
1. The technique is common knowledge. I'm sure everyone who played jigglypuff even once in melee understood this. It was vital - this technique was described in the FAQ with double F-airs in the melee 'puff boards.
2. This technique isn't nearly as useful as you're making it out to be. Obviously, you should D.I. backwards when you can avoid being punished. You dont tell people to shield or roll after a wiffed smash attack, do you? Obviously, any attempt to avoid being punished should be common sense.
To expand even more on my last two statements, I'd like to say that D.I. IS a lot better in this game. Wario, Squirtle, Toon Link, 'Puff..they all have insane D.I. A ton more characters can actually preform this effectively. Only marth/puff in the last game could preform spacing like this with aerial D.I. effectively in the last game.
So, yes. It's better in this game.
No, it didn't change anything. Sorry, but that's the facts. Competative smashers in the MD area started doing this at pound 3. That was like, a month ago.
Oh yeah, and I'd like to add it doesn't really matter WHEN you D.I. This should be based on the situation. You shouldnt always start D.I.ing before the aerial.
That is all,
-Aether
Glix
Smash Cadet
Everyone chill.
He is just informing everyone that it is more important to start your DI before you attack as supposed to after. I didn't know this and I'm glad he pointed it out.
He is just informing everyone that it is more important to start your DI before you attack as supposed to after. I didn't know this and I'm glad he pointed it out.
pockyD
Smash Legend
so you realized that by starting your movement earlier, and therefore keeping it going longer, you move further
apparently this isn't as common sense to everyone as i thought... so i guess this thread is necessary =\
apparently this isn't as common sense to everyone as i thought... so i guess this thread is necessary =\
Glix
Smash Cadet
slikvik
Smash Master
Why don't you brawl forum noobs stop posting useless crap and clogging up the serversWhy don't you just go and become a more non-traditional mother?
YOU BLOWHARD!
OP: most people who dont suck figured this out the first time they played...
Of course. I thought the OP was saying that AC started during an attack would be less effective than AC when not attacking....which I haven't noticed.
Glix
Smash Cadet
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
Okay, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here.
Let me ask a question:
Why does RAR work? It works because of the entity momentum in the havok engine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think RAR would have worked in Melee because their "physics engine" wasn't computing forces on an entity, it was forcing meshes from place to place procedurally.
Now, this aerial control move relies on the exact same momentum. If you're saying it's in melee, go boot it up, dash, start a jump and the second you start a jump, slam the stick backwards.
Report back.
Now, because of the momentum, when you do this in Brawl, it allows you to end up almost farther back than where your jump originated, though still able to poke a shielder.
I understand this is an aspect of spacing. No one is claiming it isn't. However, the OP is simply using this extreme spacing tool as an example of how to punish camping.
Remember, the whole point of this revolved around the eventual destination of the Scar thread: Defensive players have the absolute advantage.
This is one more chink in their armor. Again, we know it's spacing. However, in Brawl, the Havok engine allows for extreme spacing in a way likely not done in Melee.
If all this was common knowledge, then I'm happy there are intelligent people here.
However, I hope this maybe helps someone or two.
Let me ask a question:
Why does RAR work? It works because of the entity momentum in the havok engine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think RAR would have worked in Melee because their "physics engine" wasn't computing forces on an entity, it was forcing meshes from place to place procedurally.
Now, this aerial control move relies on the exact same momentum. If you're saying it's in melee, go boot it up, dash, start a jump and the second you start a jump, slam the stick backwards.
Report back.
Now, because of the momentum, when you do this in Brawl, it allows you to end up almost farther back than where your jump originated, though still able to poke a shielder.
I understand this is an aspect of spacing. No one is claiming it isn't. However, the OP is simply using this extreme spacing tool as an example of how to punish camping.
Remember, the whole point of this revolved around the eventual destination of the Scar thread: Defensive players have the absolute advantage.
This is one more chink in their armor. Again, we know it's spacing. However, in Brawl, the Havok engine allows for extreme spacing in a way likely not done in Melee.
If all this was common knowledge, then I'm happy there are intelligent people here.
However, I hope this maybe helps someone or two.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i'm still not convinced "rar" actually preserves your momentum - from what i can tell, it's just a side effect of air DI almost being as fast as ground dashing and people being confused by it
Papapaint
Just your average kind of Luigi.
No--do perform RAR, then intententionally start it a second later. You'll notice that if you start it after you've entered the "turnaround" animation, you won't go even 1/4 the distance.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
Well, it is a function of both. Yes aerial control has something to do with it, but it is boosted by the forces on the entity at the time of the jump.
That's the difference between melee and brawl. In brawl, the characters aren't moved procedurally no matter their current speed, they are instead moved by the calculated effect of force on them.
Mama
Smash Ace
Well I'm not sure what the first post looked like but it looked like a lot of people misunderstood what the OP was saying. Also from what I see he never posted that he discovered a revolutionary groundbreaking technique so I don't see why people are reacting that way. And Yuna what do you think DI stands for? If you want to call it air control then have at it. If you want to call influencing your trajectory when you take a hit DI and get upset when someone uses directional influence to talk about someone influencing their direction then you should start calling the former TI. Or shut up.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if a few people THINK they knew about this or not. It doesn't matter what a Jigglypuff in Melee did since this particular effect wasn't even in Melee. Again, we have people who's minds are trapped in a box. Trying to do everything like they used to. I commend Almightypancake for thinking outside the box. And this technique will likely be really useful against camping and defensive play. It doesn't matter how people react to the initial discussion of a technique. What matters is its use. And helping to make something like this better known. Rather than have a bunch of people sitting around THINKING they're doing it because they knew how in Melee.
Anyway, it doesn't matter if a few people THINK they knew about this or not. It doesn't matter what a Jigglypuff in Melee did since this particular effect wasn't even in Melee. Again, we have people who's minds are trapped in a box. Trying to do everything like they used to. I commend Almightypancake for thinking outside the box. And this technique will likely be really useful against camping and defensive play. It doesn't matter how people react to the initial discussion of a technique. What matters is its use. And helping to make something like this better known. Rather than have a bunch of people sitting around THINKING they're doing it because they knew how in Melee.
infernovia
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2008
- Messages
- 675
That Marth looked like he was spacing better than the others I have seen. Kinda reminds me of retreating B air with lucas(not bair).
Did I insult the OP at any time? No, I didn't. What gave you the right to insult me simply because I pointed out that the OP's discovery isn't new and that he had misused the word "DI"?
Since when is correcting someone a crime?
Yes it was. It's just much easier to do now.
The majority of competitive players have been using this all along. He's just watching the wrong people play.
Or more specifically: To WoP everyone.
Or how about those of us who have already done this and are actively doing it in Brawl?
pockyD
Smash Legend
once again, this isn't outside the box, it's pretty much right in the middle of the box
look guys i found a new technique where if you press a while you have someone grabbed, you can hit them and get free damage!
in all seriousness, some people haven't noticed that a lot of the new grab attacks tend to go much faster (jab speed) and are still grab-attacking at the old rate -_-...
look guys i found a new technique where if you press a while you have someone grabbed, you can hit them and get free damage!
in all seriousness, some people haven't noticed that a lot of the new grab attacks tend to go much faster (jab speed) and are still grab-attacking at the old rate -_-...
Mama
Smash Ace
Oh sorry if I told you to shut up honey bunny. The manner in which you do it in Melee is different. It yields a much greater result than it did in Melee. On top of that in Melee it was just as easy if not easier to perform. Theres a small tweak in the manner of which it is done and likewise theres a small tweak in the result. I stand by what I said though. This can help against the campers and projectile spammers. If you were indeed doing this in this exact way before then it means nothing if you didn't utilize it in a good way right? If this turns into one good way of approach then Allmightypancake still wins for making the thread and the people who were doing it before actually fail since they had this way to approach but under used it.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
Yuna, out of curiosity, you assert that the pros were holding back on the joystick immediately after jumping?
If so, I'm glad, because that's exactly the kind of abuse of the Havok engine that will allow for a counter to turtles.
If not, I hope the information was helpful to at least a few people.
Just so y'all know, the OP and I aren't offended by anyone coming in here and discussing their current uses for this, or how they use this in regards to spacing. Only ad hominem attacks will be responded to with derision.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Happy Smashing
If so, I'm glad, because that's exactly the kind of abuse of the Havok engine that will allow for a counter to turtles.
If not, I hope the information was helpful to at least a few people.
Just so y'all know, the OP and I aren't offended by anyone coming in here and discussing their current uses for this, or how they use this in regards to spacing. Only ad hominem attacks will be responded to with derision.
Thanks for everyone's input.
Happy Smashing
Mama
Smash Ace
The box I'm talking about is the Melee box. Viewing everything Melee style. I think you should look at the term and understand it. Simply because something is easy, simple or common sense doesn't mean it will be used correctly or efficiently. Using more grab attacks, whether you like it or not, is actually thinking outside the box no matter how small or obvious it may seem. Because I'm referring to the Melee box. And doing things differently than in Melee. Thats all. Thinking outside the box means thinking inside another box.
Those of us who discovered how it can be used now, yeah.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
urgh...
double, my bad.
If people knew about this, then why are there so many people saying that turtles have an immense advantage, a broken advantage (as per the Scar thread) when there are spacing and baiting options like this, which are more effective than in Melee (as far as distance retreated)?
double, my bad.
If people knew about this, then why are there so many people saying that turtles have an immense advantage, a broken advantage (as per the Scar thread) when there are spacing and baiting options like this, which are more effective than in Melee (as far as distance retreated)?
pockyD
Smash Legend
what the heck
this technique is innately a "turtling" technique
this technique is innately a "turtling" technique
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
how is an approach a turtling technique?
The eventual conclusion reached by the Scar thread was that completely defensive playstyles have a nearly insurmountable advantage in Brawl. Because there are few to no approach options.
It is in response to this that this thread was created, in the hopes of showing a nice approach to a shielding/spamming turtle.
Of particular use is this approach's dismissal of shield grabbing as a deterrent for approach.
The eventual conclusion reached by the Scar thread was that completely defensive playstyles have a nearly insurmountable advantage in Brawl. Because there are few to no approach options.
It is in response to this that this thread was created, in the hopes of showing a nice approach to a shielding/spamming turtle.
Of particular use is this approach's dismissal of shield grabbing as a deterrent for approach.
Because it's a camping tactic.
Also, not everyone can do it well, so turtling is still a viable tactic.
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
You know, I guess this could be construed as just another camping tactic.
I'm a completely offensive player, so I don't think too much in terms of camping, I just saw this as an approach.
Also, between effective use of aerial control and b-sticking, the list of characters who can benefit in no way from this is small indeed.
And most of those who are on the list are either natural camp-counters or can spam themselves.
You know, I'm starting to get jaded arguing from this side of the fence. I love this game, and have so much hope for it, but I'm starting to get a sinking feeling.
I'm a completely offensive player, so I don't think too much in terms of camping, I just saw this as an approach.
Also, between effective use of aerial control and b-sticking, the list of characters who can benefit in no way from this is small indeed.
And most of those who are on the list are either natural camp-counters or can spam themselves.
You know, I'm starting to get jaded arguing from this side of the fence. I love this game, and have so much hope for it, but I'm starting to get a sinking feeling.
pockyD
Smash Legend
i'm sorry but if you use this repeatedly to pressure a shield, they will roll and **** you
behemoth
Smash Journeyman
Not true. I started doing that last night against this, but if you see them start to react by rolling, you fast fall instead of floating and smash or grab them. I know this is poking, but my Sheik was able to string out of it. Argh I miss my combos.
Once you have them out of their stationary shield/spam, there are options.
Yeah, like so many people were able to roll and **** Jiggz in Melee.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
seriously nice guys good stuff. i needed this hopefully il twin my tourny friday. *starts pract. this lol
Mama
Smash Ace
10$ if you can guess what this game is not...
Well some people are just hell bent on being pessimistic. It can't be helped. To be honest it sounds like a lot of these people who claim to know it or use it probably didn't and don't. They just seem determined to stay confined to one manner of thinking and one conclusion that can not be shaken. We'll simply have to accept that and have to wait for people like Yuna and PokcyD to get better.
@PockyD, if you use anything too much it becomes predictable. Thats when you change up things. Ever heard of mind games? Of course you have. Rather than sit there and complain on the possibilities of things you should be trying to explore them. Not sit there and poke imaginary holes in a tactic you have yet to utilize.
Bottom line, the conclusion reached in Scar's (excellent) thread was that Brawl's current meta game favors the defensive player. The task for everybody thats not Melee challenged is to find a way around that defensive tactic. You can't do this if you're PockyD or Yuna. People who have laid down and accepted things as impossible. Can't do it if you compare every maneuver to Melee because things just work differently now.
And rolling has been magically augmented in such a way that it can now **** WoP:ing (which many more characters can do now) how?
Because the claim is that you can **** this with rolling. Which you really can't.
Wanna play over WiFi?
I don't play Brawl the way I play Melee. In fact, my mains are Marth (played kinda the same but still different), Toon Link and Pit. Toon Link and Pit are completely new characters with new Metagames so I don't even have old habits to fall back on.
Brawl is not Melee 2.0 but it's also not a completely new game. Stop saying "Brawl is not Melee" as if everything's been changed in such a drastic way nothing works the same way anymore.