DI Abuse

[Papapaint]

SOME PEOPLE ARE UNDER THE IMPRESSION THAT I'M PARADING THIS AS SOME UBER-REVOLUTIONARY TECHNIQUE. I AM NOT. THE ONLY THING OF IMPORTANCE IN THIS POST IS THE CHANGE IN ATTACK DI--NOTABLY, THE FACT THAT YOU MUST DI BEFORE AN ATTACK IN BRAWL, WHEREAS MELEE ALLOWED YOU TO DI AFTER. TRYING TO DI THE SAME WAY IN BRAWL AS YOU DID IN MELEE MORE THAN HALVES YOUR DISTANCE AND WILL GENERALLY GET YOU PUNISHED.

So MOST BASICALLY:

In MELEE, you could DI DURING or AFTER an attack and get the desired result.

In BRAWL, you must DI BEFORE you attack to get the same result.

Behemoth and I spent the better part of 3 hours online with one another, talking over AIM while trying out different strategies. During this time, we found an absurdly useful technique that took a great deal of advantage away from the defensive player.

Here's what we did. The technique is both simple and difficult at the same time; useful, but not game breaking. It's basically an abuse of the DI system in the same way B-sticking is. Take a character with a fast, long-range fAir, like Marth. Approach your opponent, then short hop. About halfway through the jump, you'll DI backwards and do your fAir at the same time. Here's where it gets tricky... you need to be DIing backwards BEFORE you start your fAir. The result is an approaching, nearly ground-level attack with enough DI to allow you to actually retreat far out of grab/OOS attack range.

The easiest way to perform this action is to short hop towards your opponent, slam the control stick back, and at almost the same time, slam your c-stick forward. It is, as Behemoth pointed out, a very noisy technique. You'll know you're doing it right if the following 3 conditions occur:

1. You attack at the peak of your jump.
2. As you attack, you have 0 momentum.
3. After the attack, you move backwards, and land very near the spot from which you originally short hopped.

Now, to be honest, this technique, if it proves to be as effective as we found it to be, will absolutely create divisions between characters. Some characters do better with this. Also, some characters can RAR with this, and some can't. But it does add to the game itself.

I know this doesn't sound amazing, but think of it this way... as melee players, how many people were trying to find ways to fastfall their aerials, or otherwise cancel lag in a similar manner to melee? I know that until today, I would SHFF and try to get out another move as quickly as possible. Each time I was soundly punished, as I'd always be within range.

Our responses after another hour of playtesting:
(2:23:54 AM) Me: that was crazy though
(2:24:02 AM) Behemoth: also, mixing it up with overshot ff'd bairs works
(2:24:12 AM) Behemoth: and it WILL train the opponent to jump and intercept
(2:24:12 AM) Me: this is definitely going to put some characters wayyyy above others though
(2:24:16 AM) Behemoth: yeah
(2:24:19 AM) Behemoth: MARTH MUCH?

Now then, we know this technique isn't particularly difficult. We also know it's not super game-breaking. But we do know that this is a significant first step in stepping outside of our current frame of reference, and working on developing this new game. This discovery has effectively added a whole new method of approach to the game--a much more difficult to punish approach, too. Most characters have fast enough Fairs--again, Marth--that even if the opponent perfect shields, they still aren't in a good position to retaliate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2MYzzegp90
This video shows us trading off offensive/defensive. I start on the offensive. Note how difficult it is for diddy to truly punish my approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnJEDa0uqLw
Here it is in an actual game situation.

 

[Santana]

I got a good picture of what you're talking about, this retreating fair (or bair, if you're going with the RAR). I'll wait for the video before passing judgment.

 

[behemoth]

Just a quick button description:

dashing forward, jump and slam the joystick in the opposite direction than the dash, and use the c-stick to fair.

I will be testing this tomorrow with RaR and bairs - I'm looking at you, Sheik.

this technique makes necessary ff'd bairs that you shorthop past the opponent. This is a mixup for after you've trained them to react to the above move.

Another mixup is once they are attempting to punish your aerial retreat, throw out another attack.

for instance, Diddy can do two bairs in one sh. So, once they're trained to chase your retreating bair, throw out another.

 

[Doomgaze]

This has been done by marth players since nearly day 1. Nothing new.

 

[Papapaint]

And apparently was still not common knowledge, because I've played plenty of Marths who didn't use this.

This applies to many, many more characters than Marth. It may be nothing new to you, but it's new to many other people. I see far more people trying to FF their aerials than I see people doing this, which is harder to punish and more effective.

The videos are now up.

To be honest, this is simply a practical application of the Craqwalk technique. It really is very effective.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

This is called spacing.

It's in almost every fighting game that exists. And some real life sports like fencing.

This has literally existed as a concept for centuries if not millennia. Not exaggerating.

EDIT: I'm also extremely disappointed to hear people referring to "craqwalking" by name (which is a misnomer to begin with). It's a natural aspect of game mechanics that is unremarkable and intuitive...like spacing. Thankfully you're not a tool that names something as fundamental as this after yourself.

 

[pockyD]

it's hard to believe it took you over a week to discover that you can control your character while they're in the air

 

[Woodman]

This is the very first thing I noticed about Marth when I played him over a month ago. You can even do short hop double fairs retreating and it is very hard for people to get to you with normal A attacks.

If you are fighting a character with projectiles on the other hand, this strategy really isn't that fantastic. Projectile spam in this game simply adds to the beefed up defensive system.

Even though this is an interesting use of DI and gives you an additional option for offense, the defensive game is still much stronger.

 

[Papapaint]

Right, I'm fully aware of it. But I really do have yet to see people using their extreme aerial DI (which does not exist in real life, sadly) to fully retreat well out of shield grabbing range. I'm not claiming to have discovered some unbelievable technique. I have definitely seen people controlling their character in the air. But I have not seen people do it to this extent, nor do I think people realize just how many characters benefit from this.

A majority of the people I've played on wifi wars and these forums have not used this tactic. Most of them keep trying to FastFall their aerials. Ergo, it is not common knowledge.

 

[Qinopio]

There's a gap between knowing you can do something and realizing that you can do it. This is useful.

 

[pockyD]

don't say you've "seen people do it"

your first post claims that you played/talked for 3 hours to figure this out

your topic line states "finally", which implies that you hadn't known about this before

 

[Papapaint]

There's a gap between knowing you can do something and realizing that you can do it. This is useful.

Thanks.

To those of you saying "Lulz, we know all about this and so does everyone ever," head over to general discussion and check out Scar's massive thread, and take a look at all the people complaining about being shield-grabbed after aerials.

This prevents that. Unless they're playing olimar. Or your f*cking trip.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

This is so old it's not funny. Sup Melee?

 

[Papapaint]

don't say you've "seen people do it"

your first post claims that you played/talked for 3 hours to figure this out

your topic line states "finally", which implies that you hadn't known about this before

There's a big f*cking difference between playing a Wario who does it ever so slightly and realizing that you can do it to get all the way out of shield grabbing range. After we worked it out, I'd noticed that some people HAD been doing it, but not to this extent. Most of them seemed to be trying to DI backwards AFTER attacking, which prevented them from getting the full distance.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Right, I'm fully aware of it. But I really do have yet to see people using their extreme aerial DI (which does not exist in real life, sadly) to fully retreat well out of shield grabbing range. I'm not claiming to have discovered some unbelievable technique. I have definitely seen people controlling their character in the air. But I have not seen people do it to this extent, nor do I think people realize just how many characters benefit from this.

A majority of the people I've played on wifi wars and these forums have not used this tactic. Most of them keep trying to FastFall their aerials. Ergo, it is not common knowledge.

So in that case your thread just amounts to a personal realization of what "spacing" means, and you telling us about how it changed your life. This doesn't mean it's a new technique.

It's one of the oldest tricks in the book really. Bait the shieldgrab and punish. Jiggly's nair in Melee was really good to use with this strat.

 

[Doomgaze]

Sorry to burst bubbles but it's not a "new" technique, as the op with the massive amount of text and title was implying.

I'm pretty sure this has been talked about over a MONTH ago and it was refered to as retreating fairs. Although it works decently for several characters, it favours marth more than most because of his sword being a disjointed hitbox and auto canceled fair.

 

[Papapaint]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_23SkLNsBIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA1i21eUAls&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3fWWvn2V0

There are some examples from the past month of decent marths, and none of them perform this technique. Instead, most of the time they're starting their attack AFTER reaching the peak of their jump, and then trying to fast-fall it, just like in melee. Most of the time, they're punished for it.

 

[Papapaint]

Sorry to burst bubbles but it's not a "new" technique, as the op with the massive amount of text and title was implying.

I'm pretty sure this has been talked about over a MONTH ago and it was refered to as retreating fairs. Although it works decently for several characters, it favours marth more than most because of his sword being a disjointed hitbox and auto canceled fair.

Then why are people trying to FF his aerials, which usually leads to them being reamed by the godliness of Brawl's defense, instead of safely doing this? And why, when I see these retreating fairs, are they at best half as short as the ones I demonstrate in those videos?

 

[pockyD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_23SkLNsBIo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA1i21eUAls&feature=user
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w3fWWvn2V0

There are some examples from the past month of decent marths, and none of them perform this technique. Instead, most of the time they're starting their attack AFTER reaching the peak of their jump, and then trying to fast-fall it, just like in melee. Most of the time, they're punished for it.

i only watched the last video (i figured i'd have to watch less of it to pick out your error since it was a ditto and therefore 2x the chance) and both marths use it within the first minute

that's where i stopped watching, but this is a staple for any melee player and never talked about because it's COMMON SENSE

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

Then why are people trying to FF his aerials, which usually leads to them being reamed by the godliness of Brawl's defense, instead of safely doing this? And why, when I see these retreating fairs, are they at best half as short as the ones I demonstrate in those videos?

Because they aren't good players or just made mistakes like any human being? Should I make a thread for EVERY single simple technique or aspect of fighting games that random people on Wifi don't use? I'd flood the forum! Why can't you just admit you made a false conjecture based on a few matches agaist random people on Wifi (of all things), which is clearly not a representative sample of the community. You'll probably get more respect from owning up to it than you will trying to propagate this further.

 

[Papapaint]

i only watched the last video (i figured i'd have to watch less of it to pick out your error since it was a ditto and therefore 2x the chance) and both marths use it within the first minute

that's where i stopped watching, but this is a staple for any melee player and never talked about because it's COMMON SENSE

Wrong. In melee, you could DI after starting an attack and go the same distance.

Both the Marths try to do it, but as I said, they're DIing AFTER attacking. Compare their retreating distance to mine--they go, at most, half as far. Leaving them still in punishment range.

I don't--and didn't--claim to have some revolutionary technique. But the fact is that in melee, you would DI by starting an attack and THEN shifting the control stick. If a significant change in attack DI system change isn't significant to you guys, then I'm not sure what would be.

 

[Doomgaze]

Since when did posting vids of people who DON'T use a specific technique, prove that it's something new?

Anyways both Hylian and Kal does it in the third video so.. guess what, it's exactly one month old.

You know there are plenty of videos back in melee where it was possible (puff vs marth ones especially), it just appears to be more so with this floatyness, which I assume everyone is clever enough to "discover" within the first day(s) of playing.

 

[everlasting yayuhzz]

Lmfao. He's so sure baiting shield grabs is new. Stop arguing, this is old man.

 

[Papapaint]

Because they aren't good players or just made mistakes like any human being? Should I make a thread for EVERY single simple technique or aspect of fighting games that random people on Wifi don't use? I'd flood the forum! Why can't you just admit you made a false conjecture based on a few matches agaist random people on Wifi (of all things), which is clearly not a representative sample of the community. You'll probably get more respect from owning up to it than you will trying to propagate this further.

"Random people" apparently being the top players on wifi wars...

I played melee competitively for years. I know how the DI works in that, and I know that this is a significant change. If you can't understand the significance of an altered attack DI system, then i'd prefer you not to post in this thread. I don't need your respect, nor anyone's, but I'll consider this thread a success if people can learn anything from it.

 

[pockyD]

41 seconds in, red does it

can you concede the point yet?

realize that there's almost NEVER any reason to retreat the full distance when you're marth becuase no one's outranging you, and your fair tip is the distance you want to stay at

 

[kangaroo]

i need a new tactic against campers, i'm gonna try using this more with yoshi's fair and see if it works

 

[Papapaint]

41 seconds in, red does it

can you concede the point yet?

realize that there's almost NEVER any reason to retreat the full distance when you're marth becuase no one's outranging you, and your fair tip is the distance you want to stay at

... which is where this DI lands you. Back where you started. Which is SH tipper range.

Look guys, I understand spacing. I understand baiting. If I wanted to post about those, then I would've called the thread "Lawl, Making them think your comin but ur not!"

What's significant here is the change in DI. Brawl's physics force you to DI and stop your momentum before attacking. Melee's allowed you to do it afterwards, and all the melee players are still trying to do it afterwards. That's why they're not moving as far, or spacing as well. That's why they're still being sheildgrabbed or downsmashed. It's not just marths, its warios and olimars and lucases. It's nesses and sheiks and zeldas.

The DI of attacks has changed, and significantly so. I haven't seen a topic discussing this yet, and I've seen people trying to DI the way they did in melee. The discovery here is the change.

As I said, if you don't see that as significant, fine. You're probably not as good at smash as your internet shield allows you to pretend. Maybe you've known about this since before smash was even a game. But there are people who will use this new DI knowledge, and advance it to something else. If you're just here in this thread to flame, piss off. Go to general brawl.

But if you can see that the new DI matters greatly for some characters--not just marth, but characters WITHOUT disjointed hitboxes even more so, like diddy or sheik... then please contribute.

 

[Wobbles]

Seriously man, just give it up. You haven't "finally" found "a new approach option."

Nobody here is denying its usefulness or importance. The problem is, you're assuming that because some players don't do it, it must be new.

You can say, "people who complain about shieldgrabbing should do this instead," or "I've been seeing a lot of people fail to use this, so I'm throwing it out as an alternative." How you present your stuff drastically changes how it's received, and you came across as arrogant.

You found some way that would change the way people view Brawl? You found a technique that "adds a new method of approach to the game? It doesn't solve world hunger too, does it?

I mean, good job on discovering it, seriously. Most people never quite grasp the importance of spacing, and you will probably develop a more solid game if you base your play around it. Congratulations. But it's not new, and it's not revolutionary, and trying to pretend it is will only make you look sillier and sillier.

Edit: You posted while I was replying. If you think you've found a major difference between Melee DI and Brawl DI, then emphasize it. As it is, you confused the hell out of everybody.

 

[pockyD]

i'm NOT particularly good at smash, but i was good enough to realize this very basic thing when i was still playing 4player ffas timed matches 5 years ago though

 

[Papapaint]

deleted, saw wobbles' edit.

 

[Papapaint]

Edit: You posted while I was replying. If you think you've found a major difference between Melee DI and Brawl DI, then emphasize it. As it is, you confused the hell out of everybody.

I edited the first post. Does it read more clearly now?

 

[pockyD]

look, the information is ok - good to know but most people already know it and it's pretty common sense

however, you have an awful tone in your initial post, detailing the 4 hours you took to figure this out, implying that you thought it WAS "new and revolutionary", which we felt obliged to let you know it wasn't

following that, you got defensive, first saying no one did it the exact same way you did, giving "proof", and when your "proof" contradicted you, then you ignored that and backtracked to alter the very base of what you were saying

people post 'already known' things all the time - there's nothing wrong with that; as long as you accept it when people tell you it's known instead of getting defensive about it and nitpicking little differences that don't even actually exist, which is just a waste of everybody's time

 

[Papapaint]

look, the information is ok - good to know but most people already know it and it's pretty common sense

however, you have an awful tone in your initial post, detailing the 4 hours you took to figure this out, implying that you thought it WAS "new and revolutionary", which we felt obliged to let you know it wasn't

following that, you got defensive, first saying no one did it the exact same way you did, giving "proof", and when your "proof" contradicted you, then you ignored that and backtracked to alter the very base of what you were saying

people post 'already known' things all the time - there's nothing wrong with that; as long as you accept it when people tell you it's known instead of getting defensive about it and nitpicking little differences that don't even actually exist, which is just a waste of everybody's time

?

My first post explicitly says that I didn't discover a revolutionary technique. The whole post talks about the new DI system. This has not been discussed, and I used those videos to show that the people who have supposedly been "doing it" have been trying to do it the melee way, and are not doing it correctly. I have not backtracked on anything, unless you consider me clarifying my first post "backtracking". I never claimed this was anything beyond an exploration of the DI system... which has not been discussed and is clearly not "already known," seeing as how most people aren't doing it.

 

[Syde7]

I've done this a ton of time while trying to learn/slightly alter the RAR. By mis-timing my backwards pull of the joystick I pulled this off.

That being said, it is still useful. And, as you said there are a lot of people who still try to FF the aerials in order to eliminate the chance of getting punished. With this, you don't have to worry about the complex buttom schema to cancel the crouching animation by up-tilting on the joystick and C-sticking. Though, this does seem to vary by character as to its usefulness.

 

[Yuna]

It's not called DI in those instances. It's called "Air Controlling".

 

[Finch]

Why are you calling this DI? You should really know better, and it makes your post confusing and misleading.

 

[Ryven]

So, yeah. This was totally news to me. I'm thankful. I had no idea that it was now more effective to DI before attacking, because it had never occurred to me to try.

So everyone who was like, "This is obvious!" It wasn't, at least not to me.

Thanks Pancake! ^^

 

[usea]

This is not DI. DI is affecting your trajectory when you're hit. Moving yourself in the air is called air control. This is not nitpicking, it's important that you not confuse people further.

 

[Nemireck]

It's been possible to do this in some form or another since SSB64, it's called spacing and air-control. DI is a reference to your trajectory after being HIT. I can't think of how I ACTUALLY do this right now, but I know that it's something picked up by any regular smash player within a few hours of game-time. We really need a smash-noobs forum to discuss the basic mechanics of the game such as simple air-control. Your experiences online via play-anyone are moot points, most people are NOT serious Smash gamers, they like to Spam F-Smash over and over and hope to get kills and laugh when they do and laugh when they die, it's all just fun for them. Your smashboards experience was similar to my first day, apparently there are just as many bad players on these forums as there are in the basic online play. But there ARE experienced players on the forums, and anyone who cares enough to be decent at the game will learn how to do this within a few matches.

 

[usea]

So is your new whole point "holding back earlier results in a farther movement in the air than if you hold back later." ?