Detailed Roy vs Chrom Thread

[Bobert]

They should have changed chrom's side b to Ike's quick draw. Be a true Roy and ike hybrid than deal with the awful recovery

He's pretty much just Roy with a blatantly superior recovery and no sourspots at that point.

 

[The DanMan051]

He's pretty much just Roy with a blatantly superior recovery and no sourspots at that point.

Roy himself has been buffed; sweetspots on attacks seem to be a lot bigger now, with sourspots not being as weak as they were.

When there's gameplay videos of people sweetspotting Roy's attacks 95% of the time, Chrom's damage output starts looking a lot more inferior (especially since it's kinda lackluster in general; the most common comparison I've seen is Pit nailing about as much damage per hit while simultaneously having far more tools).

 

[Rocketjay8]

Blatantly inferior recovery. Blazer allows for actual diagonal movement.

And Roy himself has been buffed; sweetspots on attacks seem to be a lot bigger now, with sourspots not being as weak as they were.

When there's gameplay videos of people sweetspotting Roy's attacks 95% of the time, Chrom's damage output starts looking a lot more inferior (especially since it's kinda lackluster in general; the most common comparison I've seen is Pit nailing about as much damage per hit while while simultaneously having far more tools).

I don't think he is saying that Chrom with just ether has a better recovery, he's saying that Chrom with quick draw and ether will have a blatantly superior recovery.

 

[The DanMan051]

I don't think he is saying that Chrom with just ether has a better recovery, he's saying that Chrom with quick draw and ether will have a blatantly superior recovery.

Ah, my mistake.

 

[Blue Rose]

I think Chrom having a poor recovery is a fair trade for his sword not having to deal with sourspots, clones should have trade offs not just one being outright better

 

[Arthur97]

I think Chrom having a poor recovery is a fair trade for his sword not having to deal with sourspots, clones should have trade offs not just one being outright better

They shouldn't be outright worse though, which its looking like Chrom is.

 

[Blue Rose]

They shouldn't be outright worse though, which its looking like Chrom is.

I think people are overblowing just how bad Chrom's recovery is and how good Roy is. Roy might have better frame data this time around but he will still struggle to approach compared to Chrom. A poor recovery doesn't make a character bad, just look at Cloud.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I think people are overblowing just how bad Chrom's recovery is and how good Roy is. Roy might have better frame data this time around but he will still struggle to approach compared to Chrom. A poor recovery doesn't make a character bad, just look at Cloud.

Except Limit Break turns that exploitable recovery into a good one, Chrom doesn't have something like that.

 

[Blue Rose]

Except Limit Break turns that exploitable recovery into a good one, Chrom doesn't have something like that.

Cloud doesn't always have his Limit Break, it's not reliable and Cloud players try to avoid spending their limit on recovering unless necessary. I'm not saying Chrom is going to be Cloud either but even if Cloud didn't have Limit Break he would most likely be a strong character. Not to mention Cloud's recovery without Limit Break has less range than Chrom's recovery.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Cloud doesn't always have his Limit Break, it's not reliable and Cloud players try to avoid spending their limit on recovering unless necessary. I'm not saying Chrom is going to be Cloud either but even if Cloud didn't have Limit Break he would most likely be a strong character. Not to mention Cloud's recovery without Limit Break has less range than Chrom's recovery.

Cloud's double jump covers more distance, it also helps that he naturally doesn't fall like a rock, he can also stall a little with neutral or side b, neither Roy or Chrom can stall offstage.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Cloud's double jump covers more distance, it also helps that he naturally doesn't fall like a rock, he can also stall a little with neutral or side b, neither Roy or Chrom can stall offstage.

Yes, Cloud has a better recovery than Chrom and Roy's, but that's not saying much. That's like saying "Well at least Captain Falcon has a better recovery than Little Mac" it doesn't change the fact that his recovery is ****. It's extremely predictable, has very little vertical distance (good luck spiking near the bottom), and the limit recovery is so situational, that when you do use it, a regular one will still do the same thing. His point still stands. A character like Cloud can be high tier even if they have a terrible recovery.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Yes, Cloud has a better recovery than Chrom and Roy's, but that's not saying much. That's like saying "Well at least Captain Falcon has a better recovery than Little Mac" it doesn't change the fact that his recovery is ****. It's extremely predictable, has very little vertical distance (good luck spiking near the bottom), and the limit recovery is so situational, that when you do use it, a regular one will still do the same thing. His point still stands. A character like Cloud can be high tier even if they have a terrible recovery.

Outside of non-limit Climhazzard, no other high/top tier has a recovery as exploitable as Aether, some are acting like the recovery isn't a big issue, but what good is your onstage presence if a light breeze offstage is enough to put you out of commission?

 

[Arthur97]

Mario's is pretty exploitable and he lacks a mainly horizontal move.

 

[Bobert]

Roy himself has been buffed; sweetspots on attacks seem to be a lot bigger now, with sourspots not being as weak as they were.

When there's gameplay videos of people sweetspotting Roy's attacks 95% of the time, Chrom's damage output starts looking a lot more inferior (especially since it's kinda lackluster in general; the most common comparison I've seen is Pit nailing about as much damage per hit while simultaneously having far more tools).

I don't think he's going to be hitting the sweetspot as often once we actually get our hands on the game. It doesn't seem that buffed to me either. Most of the players aren't very good at the game yet and in a lot of the videos, Roy is hitting his opponent while basically being right in their face. B-airs sourspot specifically still looks very large. He hit Pichu with it in one video while fairly close and it was still the weak hit.

 

[Fell God]

Mario's is pretty exploitable and he lacks a mainly horizontal move.

Moreso now than ever since he lost his ledge magnets.

I do have good news for all Chrom players and Roy players, and it's that we will all have safe on shield aerials and (from what I've been told) nair hit 1 into side smash. Sounds fun.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Mario's is pretty exploitable and he lacks a mainly horizontal move.

Double jump covers good distance, side b nicely stalls, up b snaps to the ledge(no longer does in Ultimate, we'll see how it turns out in the long run). I don't think Chrom will be one of the worst characters(far from it), but you'd have to be blind if you think his recovery isn't bottom tier.

 

[Arthur97]

Double jump covers good distance, side b nicely stalls, up b snaps to the ledge(no longer does in Ultimate, we'll see how it turns out in the long run). I don't think Chrom will be one of the worst characters(far from it), but you'd have to be blind if you think his recovery isn't bottom tier.

Just saying you don't need a great one to be good. Besides, Roy's is still bad as well. Not as bad, yes, but still bad. If it will bring Chrom down, it's probably bringing Roy down too.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Just saying you don't need a great one to be good. Besides, Roy's is still bad as well. Not as bad, yes, but still bad. If it will bring Chrom down, it's probably bringing Roy down too.

It does. All the way since Melee Roy has had a slew of flaws dragging him down, recovery included. And even though you know this is wrong, there are already some people calling Chrom "Hard mode Roy" instead of "Easy mode Roy"(for how some call Lucina "Easy mode Marth"), because of his recovery.

 

[Izanagi97]

It does. All the way since Melee Roy has had a slew of flaws dragging him down, recovery included. And even though you know this is wrong, there are already some people calling Chrom "Hard mode Roy" instead of "Easy mode Roy"(for how some call Lucina "Easy mode Marth"), because of his recovery.

Better than people calling him "Little Mac with a Sword" due to his recovery even though Little Mac was dragged down by a lot more than just bad recovery. Still, something tells me Chrom is gonna be pretty fun to play (unlike some of those folks on reddit who think "really bad recover = literally the worst character")

 

[godogod]

He's pretty much just Roy with a blatantly superior recovery and no sourspots at that point.

I I don't mind that as that would make him slightly more unique and usable, and not trash for having a crap recovery, and an inferior roy clone as a result. This is coming from someone who mains Roy. Roy would dish out more damage with sweet spots, and double edge dance has its benefits. I'm really hoping ded slows his fall speed down(the initial one) like it did with Marth, and in melee.. Can anyone test that? Maybe have chrom's side b cover less distance than Ike's and have some other minor unique difference?

I think Chrom having a poor recovery is a fair trade for his sword not having to deal with sourspots, clones should have trade offs not just one being outright better

he's gonna get ****ed off stage.. lie little mac, I don't like it.

 

[Jak8]

I'm really hoping ded slows his fall speed down(the initial one) like it did with Marth, and in melee.

Unfortunately, I don't think it does. Watch this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyWPqW_5vBY
It at least doesn't do it like it does in Melee. MAYBE if used at the top of a jump, it could help, but I doubt it would do that, since it didn't do that in Smash 4 I don't think. And it doesn't look like it really slows down his fall anyways, so doing that is pretty much pointless again. I'm with you, though, I DO wish that Roy had that (and I guess by extension, Chrom; in fact, it would be a huge benefit if Chrom could stall Melee-style with DED).

 

[Rocketjay8]

I I don't mind that as that would make him slightly more unique and usable, and not trash for having a crap recovery, and an inferior roy clone as a result. This is coming from someone who mains Roy. Roy would dish out more damage with sweet spots, and double edge dance has its benefits. I'm really hoping ded slows his fall speed down(the initial one) like it did with Marth, and in melee.. Can anyone test that? Maybe have chrom's side b cover less distance than Ike's and have some other minor unique difference?


he's gonna get ****ed off stage.. lie little mac, I don't like it.

Well unlike mac he has good air attacks.

 

[Izanagi97]

Well unlike mac he has good air attacks.

I guess the reason people use Little Mac (who is literally the worst character in the air in terms of offense, defense, and mobility) for comparison is because they think Cloud having Limit means he can't be used for the comparison despite them having pretty similar stats once you remove Limit from the equation.

 

[J0eyboi]

I like how this thread titled "Detailed Roy vs. Chrom Thread" features virtually no discussion of anything outside of recovering.

Anyway, it appears that Roy's jab has had its sweetspot angle adjusted to send more vertically, allowing for easier followups, whereas Chrom's has the angle Roy's sweetspot did in 4. Maybe. It's really hard to tell, but it definitely looks like Roy's sends more vertically than it used to, and I'm 90% sure Chrom's has a more horizontal angle than Roy's.

Edit: I'm pretty sure Roy's jab has a steeper angle now. In this clip, Roy jabs a soccer ball, which as far as I know get launched at the angle of the attack that hit them, and it flies off at an angle that looks a lot steeper than 62. Why is it 62, anyway? That's always seemed a bit odd to me.

Also, there should be a Roy changelist thread.

 

[Izanagi97]

I like how this thread titled "Detailed Roy vs. Chrom Thread" features virtually no discussion of anything outside of recovering.

Anyway, it appears that Roy's jab has had its sweetspot angle adjusted to send more vertically, allowing for easier followups, whereas Chrom's has the angle Roy's sweetspot did in 4. Maybe. It's really hard to tell, but it definitely looks like Roy's sends more vertically than it used to, and I'm 90% sure Chrom's has a more horizontal angle than Roy's.

Edit: I'm pretty sure Roy's jab has a steeper angle now. In this clip, Roy jabs a soccer ball, which as far as I know get launched at the angle of the attack that hit them, and it flies off at an angle that looks a lot steeper than 62. Why is it 62, anyway? That's always seemed a bit odd to me.

Also, there should be a Roy changelist thread.

Yeah, whenever I see discussion on Chrom in other places, they already bring up the recovery and say that it will drop him several tiers. All I know is to stay away from Gamefaqs regarding echoes.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, whenever I see discussion on Chrom in other places, they already bring up the recovery and say that it will drop him several tiers. All I know is to stay away from Gamefaqs regarding echoes.

Shouldn't that be the rule of thumb for most things?

 

[Jak8]

I like how this thread titled "Detailed Roy vs. Chrom Thread" features virtually no discussion of anything outside of recovering.

Anyway, it appears that Roy's jab has had its sweetspot angle adjusted to send more vertically, allowing for easier followups, whereas Chrom's has the angle Roy's sweetspot did in 4. Maybe. It's really hard to tell, but it definitely looks like Roy's sends more vertically than it used to, and I'm 90% sure Chrom's has a more horizontal angle than Roy's.

Edit: I'm pretty sure Roy's jab has a steeper angle now. In this clip, Roy jabs a soccer ball, which as far as I know get launched at the angle of the attack that hit them, and it flies off at an angle that looks a lot steeper than 62. Why is it 62, anyway? That's always seemed a bit odd to me.

Also, there should be a Roy changelist thread.

I'd be willing to bet that's because it's just such a point of contention for most people (myself included). But with that said, I'm sure it doesn't have to just be about his recovery. If there are any changes to Roy that you want to talk about, at the least I will talk with you about it (even if I have NEVER gone to a tournament before, I main Roy and try to get better at him)

 

[Ark of Silence101]

I like how this thread titled "Detailed Roy vs. Chrom Thread" features virtually no discussion of anything outside of recovering.

Anyway, it appears that Roy's jab has had its sweetspot angle adjusted to send more vertically, allowing for easier followups, whereas Chrom's has the angle Roy's sweetspot did in 4. Maybe. It's really hard to tell, but it definitely looks like Roy's sends more vertically than it used to, and I'm 90% sure Chrom's has a more horizontal angle than Roy's.

Edit: I'm pretty sure Roy's jab has a steeper angle now. In this clip, Roy jabs a soccer ball, which as far as I know get launched at the angle of the attack that hit them, and it flies off at an angle that looks a lot steeper than 62. Why is it 62, anyway? That's always seemed a bit odd to me.

Also, there should be a Roy changelist thread.

In the neutral Chrom is gonna have a better time than Roy against certain characters because of his better spacing, but offstage it's gonna be the same tired old song you've heard since his reveal.

 

[smashingDoug]

You all got to Remember though...

Roy has


TEH PHIR3!!

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

I think Roy is going to do quite well in this game, and I don't see enough reasons why Chrom will be a whole lot worse than somewhere in mid-tier. The game as a whole looks like it could be pretty OK as far as balance goes, but sword characters in particular are looking mighty strong in early gameplay from the demo and from pirated/leaked copies. Regardless, Chrom looks fun and will definitely make a lot of fans happy regardless of his competitive viability, because at least he isn't hot garbage like some other characters have been in past games.

 

[FE_SLaDe]

The more footage I see, the more it looks like Chrom's recovery has been a completely overblown issue. Yes it'll be an issue against characters that can competently edge-guard and it might still be the worst in the game, but to be honest a lot of characters are going to get destroyed off stage with the new ledge-snap mechanics and the air-dodge mechanics. (N-Air dodging still seems really good though so we'll see)

I'll have to update this list to include that Chrom's N-Air 1 looks to be a helluva lot more potent than Roy's is (especially when spaced with how good it is at confirming into F-Smash) and the hit-box on F-Smash is also gonna be much more usable in situations involving platforms and N-Air confirms. Also he seems to have a lot more he can get more off of his F-Airs than Roy will, especially when spaced. Another thing to note is Chrom is gonna be able to juggle like a god with his Up-Air and I've heard it kills like Roy's (though probably later but that's actually irrelevant when considering all his other ways of killing) and his Jab and F-Tilt I believe hit characters at the ledge.

When I made comparisons to limit-less Cloud before, I was only half serious because I was only theorycrafting he'd be capable of doing things like this. I'm completely serious now though having seen Shoyo James play the character. He's like a faster limit-less Cloud with Sheik-like combo potential and has terrifying braindead confirms in Jab into RAR B-Air or and N-Air 1 into either Up-Smash or F-Smash.

While I won't say about where I think they'll be specifically on a Tier List, with the kits both Roy and Chrom have shown to have now, there's far more than just tournament viable. They could actually win Regionals and Majors with the right players playing them and I think that's a lot more than you could say about Smash 4 Roy. Man I just want this game to come out so badly.

 

[Rocketjay8]

What the hitbox?! If this is true than gimping characters with Chrom will be really good.

In the neutral Chrom is gonna have a better time than Roy against certain characters because of his better spacing, but offstage it's gonna be the same tired old song you've heard since his reveal.

this man can recover that low from the blastzone and still have some height over the stage with up b

airdodge broke pic.twitter.com/RqTz5lXBhP

— james (@Rivers3k) November 28, 2018

His recovery isn't as bad as you think.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Double post. Sorry.

 

[FE_SLaDe]

this man can recover that low from the blastzone and still have some height over the stage with up b

airdodge broke pic.twitter.com/RqTz5lXBhP

— james (@Rivers3k) November 28, 2018

He has a better recovery than you think.

To be completely fair, if Pichu hadn't have Skull Bashed there, he would have been in great condition to punish the Directional Air-Dodge Chrom used early.

Regardless of that your point still stands, it's better than people give it credit for.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

What the hitbox?! If this is true than gimping characters with Chrom will be really good.

this man can recover that low from the blastzone and still have some height over the stage with up b

airdodge broke pic.twitter.com/RqTz5lXBhP

— james (@Rivers3k) November 28, 2018

His recovery isn't as bad as you think.

Yet it's still happens to be fairly exploitable. Until the game comes out, we won't know who is better or if Chrom's recovery will be his undoing against the top tiers(do also bear in mind that even top players's opinions are subjective, Shojo James and ESAM think Chrom is better while Mr. R and ZeRo think he's garbage because of his recovery, see where I'm going?).

 

[J0eyboi]

What the hitbox?! If this is true than gimping characters with Chrom will be really good.

That's just what getting hit off the ledge as K.Rool looks like. However, that does mean that Roy and Chrom's dtilts can hit people hanging on the ledge now, which is great for their ledge pressure.

His recovery isn't as bad as you think.

I've thought that Chrom's recovery issues were being overblown since the day public opinion on him shifted from "objectively better Roy" to "bottom tier," but Roy's is still significantly better. He has all the airdodge mixups Chrom has, but the better horizontal distance of Blazer means he won't have to use his jump nearly as much. Roy will also be way better at recovering without his jump, which is important too.

(do also bear in mind that even top players's opinions are subjective, Shojo James and ESAM think Chrom is better while Mr. R and ZeRo think he's garbage because of his recovery, see where I'm going?).

ESAM doesn't think Chrom is better. He did a stream where he made an Ultimate tier list the other day, and he put Roy in low high tier and Chrom in mid mid tier (his names for the tiers, not mine).

 

[Izanagi97]

I wonder if the shift in opinions happened before or after ShoyoJames posted all that Chrom gameplay on twitter

 

[Ark of Silence101]

That's just what getting hit off the ledge as K.Rool looks like. However, that does mean that Roy and Chrom's dtilts can hit people hanging on the ledge now, which is great for their ledge pressure.



I've thought that Chrom's recovery issues were being overblown since the day public opinion on him shifted from "objectively better Roy" to "bottom tier," but Roy's is still significantly better. He has all the airdodge mixups Chrom has, but the better horizontal distance of Blazer means he won't have to use his jump nearly as much. Roy will also be way better at recovering without his jump, which is important too.



ESAM doesn't think Chrom is better. He did a stream where he made an Ultimate tier list the other day, and he put Roy in low high tier and Chrom in mid mid tier (his names for the tiers, not mine).

I see. To be honest I don't think Roy is high tier, he's in a better position than Smash 4 but people should not make these kind of assumptions until the game comes out and the competitive meta starts to develop. I'll give credit where credit is due, at least Chrom's recovery is still better than Simon/Richter's without the tether, now THAT is garbage recovery.

 

[Arthur97]

That's just what getting hit off the ledge as K.Rool looks like. However, that does mean that Roy and Chrom's dtilts can hit people hanging on the ledge now, which is great for their ledge pressure.



I've thought that Chrom's recovery issues were being overblown since the day public opinion on him shifted from "objectively better Roy" to "bottom tier," but Roy's is still significantly better. He has all the airdodge mixups Chrom has, but the better horizontal distance of Blazer means he won't have to use his jump nearly as much. Roy will also be way better at recovering without his jump, which is important too.



ESAM doesn't think Chrom is better. He did a stream where he made an Ultimate tier list the other day, and he put Roy in low high tier and Chrom in mid mid tier (his names for the tiers, not mine).

Way better is relative. Still pretty bad for Roy too. I really don't like how people seem to act like Roy's is fine now.

 

[Izanagi97]

I see. To be honest I don't think Roy is high tier, he's in a better position than Smash 4 but people should not make these kind of assumptions until the game comes out and the competitive meta starts to develop. I'll give credit where credit is due, at least Chrom's recovery is still better than Simon/Richter's without the tether, now THAT is garbage recovery.

Doesn't help that the Belmonts are bottom 15 in air speed (0.94). Then again, one has to get through their zoning first.