Detailed Roy vs Chrom Thread

[FE_SLaDe]

After having played the game, this list is outdated and is irrelevant so I deleted all of the old info. If you want more information on Roy and Chrom, join the Roy/Chrom discord from Smashcords. Great community and there's a lot of people always willing to help out. I'll get around to actually fixing this whenever I get time that I'm not spending playing the game.

However for now this is what I generally understand, Roy gets more from Jabs (Jab to RAR Bair, Fair, and DED which all kill reliably and early), Roy still has good sourspot utilization, Chrom gets more from F-Tilts and Fairs (Fair is practically Smash 4 prepatch Sheik Fair but disjointed, it's incredible), Chrom's Nair 1 is better and is one of the best kill confirms in the whole game, Chrom is amazing and is very oppressive for some characters in neutral, Roy's pressure up close is insane, and Roy can sour Up-Air into imagination.

Chrom's suicide Up-B strats are everything I thought they would be though with DI the opponent can land on stage or hit a wall and tech. It confirms off of Jab, Nair, Fair, falling Up Air, and Nair 1. It can also kill normally on stage, and is particularly good on stages with platforms. Also it's a pretty strong OOS option buffed by the fact that you don't even need to jump to use Up B OOS. All in all "Soaring Slash" (Should be called Aether but whatever) is a decent move that doesn't hold back Chrom in the slightest. Speaking of that.

They both are susceptible to getting gimped and not recovering without their double jumps, don't fall for the "Chrom recovery is so much more trash than Roy's" circlejerk. I have tested it and you can't just stand at the ledge and counter it (in fact at certain spaces he punishes the counters because the counter-swings whiff but regardless sweetspotting your recovery is safer). Also Chrom has the Air Speed to make it back from all the way near the blast zone to the stage on every potentially legal stage and still sweetspot the ledge. His recovery is a massively overblown issue. There really isn't a super huge issue if you can sweetspot the ledge it unless the enemy has a powerful meteor spike. Before you say "well, why not just go out there and hit Chrom" hilariously enough you can do that to Roy too, Blazer doesn't beat out the majority of characters' disjointed options and actually MORE susceptible to having his recovery countered than Chrom is (run off counter in particular), that's not to say there aren't ways around the counter, but the concept still stands. Roy's recovery is better, but not so much so that it actually makes a difference between the two characters.

It is my opinion that you should dual-main the characters for the best success unless you're just a fan of one or the other (which is fine too). Roy is better against the other swordsmen as well as the characters that try to keep their opponents at bay with his higher damage and kill power. He's also better against characters who have strong meteor spikes. Chrom is better against characters that want to be up close or characters with really good OOS options with his superior spacing. Chrom is also better against some heavies (but I wouldn't say heavies like K Rool or characters with strong projectile games, but it's honestly too soon to really know). Either way, both require discipline and skill... Also don't lose your double jump. Seriously.

 

[Arthur97]

Hmm, saying Roy won't have an issue with recovery seems incorrect as his still isn't great.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Hmm, saying Roy won't have an issue with recovery seems incorrect as his still isn't great.

True, but at least his is manageable, Aether without Quick Draw is just awful.

 

[Arthur97]

True, but at least his is manageable, Aether without Quick Draw is just awful.

It just kind of seems that in overblowing how bad Chrom's is, they seem to think Roy is Kirby now.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

It just kind of seems that in overblowing how bad Chrom's is, they seem to think Roy is Kirby now.

The only option Chrom has outside of double jump is directional airdodge, which if he gets sent far enough afterwards it's curtains, same goes for Roy but at least Blazer is capable of being angled. Kirby has multiple jumps so at least he isn't a total sitting duck offstage.

 

[Artic223]

Chrom's recovery is one of the worst.

 

[Arthur97]

The only option Chrom has outside of double jump is directional airdodge, which if he gets sent far enough afterwards it's curtains, same goes for Roy but at least Blazer is capable of being angled. Kirby has multiple jumps so at least he isn't a total sitting duck offstage.

...that was the point of the Kirby analogy. People just seem to act like Roy's isn't an issue because Chrom's is worse by saying stuff like Roy won't have an issue recovering.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

...that was the point of the Kirby analogy. People just seem to act like Roy's isn't an issue because Chrom's is worse by saying stuff like Roy won't have an issue recovering.

I have never ignored the fact that Roy has a bad recovery but since Chrom's is even worse, it gives the illusion Roy's good by comparison.

 

[Jedisupersonic]

...that was the point of the Kirby analogy. People just seem to act like Roy's isn't an issue because Chrom's is worse by saying stuff like Roy won't have an issue recovering.

Roy's can be angled and therefore it's better by default, it's by no means a good recovery, but it's more akin to say Mario's which has a nice angle it can go at.

 

[FE_SLaDe]

I did mention that Roy also had less than stellar recovery but I digress. The purpose of this list was to point out Chrom has a lot of good (if not great) things going for him and just calling him trash because of his recovery is knee-jerky and incredibly dumb. I also wanted to attack the issue of people saying outright at the start that Chrom would be infinitely better than Roy because of his balanced blade like having sour-spots = trash.

 

[Arthur97]

Admittedly, I'm no expert on these things, but it seems like the stuff people should be focusing on more is how they play on stage since neither should be off stage (where, yes, Roy has an advantage for what its worth) if they can help it.

 

[Reiks]

Admittedly, I'm no expert on these things, but it seems like the stuff people should be focusing on more is how they play on stage since neither should be off stage (where, yes, Roy has an advantage for what its worth) if they can help it.

I understand clearly on what you are saying but it is hard not to talk about both of those characters offstage survivability due to the fact that they are fastfallers. Regardless of how amazing they both are on stage they will get combo'd hard and they will get knocked offstage. So chrom having a less manageable recovery is a greater weakness than you may think.

For example little mac has so much potential on stage but he rarely can show it off consistently because he gets gimped hard offstage.

 

[Arthur97]

I understand clearly on what you are saying but it is hard not to talk about both of those characters offstage survivability due to the fact that they are fastfallers. Regardless of how amazing they both are on stage they will get combo'd hard and they will get knocked offstage. So chrom having a less manageable recovery is a greater weakness than you may think.

For example little mac has so much potential on stage but he rarely can show it off consistently because he gets gimped hard offstage.

While this is greater for Chrom, it's still pretty bad for Roy. Guess I'm going with the argument that when they're that bad, how much of a difference does it make if one is better?

 

[Reiks]

Guess I'm going with the argument that when they're that bad, how much of a difference does it make if one is better?

Yes this is a great argument. Also a character can be still be amazing if their strengths out weight their weaknesses which is evident of the top tier character Cloud(so Chrom can't be count out). The problem here is while Roy has a poor recovery, aether is potentially too great of a weakness as it is way worse.

Against a rosalina dair at least Roy can try to mix up his recovery by: Angling it more horizontal from a distance away from the stage(either instantly or staled via jumping), up b early above stage level to mix up drift forward and back like captain falcon players tend to do, going underneath the stage and snap ledge. All chrom has is the universal airdodge which he will be too far to do after being hit starting around 80% and aether.

Theres a reason ike players use side b way more. Charge shots, simon's range, pikachu jolts, counters, windboxes and many more all body aether.

Tl;dr: Chrom and Roy's home is onstage. Roy at least has some chance of coming back home since there are some options, Chrom straight up dies more often attempting to come back onstage.

 

[Izanagi97]

I did mention that Roy also had less than stellar recovery but I digress. The purpose of this list was to point out Chrom has a lot of good (if not great) things going for him and just calling him trash because of his recovery is knee-jerky and incredibly dumb. I also wanted to attack the issue of people saying outright at the start that Chrom would be infinitely better than Roy because of his balanced blade like having sour-spots = trash.

It reminds me of people calling some of the veterans trash because they can't spam the same **** they did in 4.

 

[AmateurKnight23]

Roy’s got the better face and hair.

Chrom looks ugly. Especially compared to every FE character in Ultimate, who got great upgrades from Smash 4.

 

[Jak8]

DED will need to be spaced closer and unsafely in order to kill. While it’s still a massive improvement from Smash 4, it still has an increased 3 frames of start-up

I thought that was only for Marth & Lucina's DB starting on frame 9 as opposed to 6, and that Roy and Chrom both start on the same frame? Am I wrong on that? Or did they give Roy the three extra frames and make it a frame 12 move as opposed to frame 9?

Also, I feel that Chrom's recovery is just going to hinder him too much to be better than Roy (even if Roy has all the issues stated up there).

 

[Jak8]

Chrom and Roy's home is onstage. Roy at least has some chance of coming back home since there are some options, Chrom straight up dies more often attempting to come back onstage.

I also wanted to say that: Roy has a TON of potential actually when edgeguarding. He can go pretty far out and still make it back when edgeguarding due to his decent horizontal recovery. Chrom cannot go offstage AT ALL or else he has a chance of getting gimped. At least with Roy if he gets hit he still has a chance of making it back. As such, Roy can work decently well offstage in addition to working really well on-stage. Granted, if Chrom can stay onstage, then Chrom will more than likely be better than Roy, but if he keeps getting gimped easily, then he will be worse than Roy. Even if Chrom has a lot of positives to his character, the up-b is just way too easy to gimp, not to mention the other negatives you mention, that, in my opinion actually outweigh Roy's negatives.

 

[FE_SLaDe]

I thought that was only for Marth & Lucina's DB starting on frame 9 as opposed to 6, and that Roy and Chrom both start on the same frame? Am I wrong on that? Or did they give Roy the three extra frames and make it a frame 12 move as opposed to frame 9?

Also, I feel that Chrom's recovery is just going to hinder him too much to be better than Roy (even if Roy has all the issues stated up there).

Roy's DED started at Frame 6 in Smash 4. Like Marcina DB changes, Roy and Chrom's DED was adjusted to be active starting frame 9. The changes to DED is still a significant buff for Roy when compared to Smash 4 even with the 3 frame start-up because it will link reliably and actually kill wheras in Smash 4 the move was all but useless at medium to higher percents. However the 3 frames of added startup will be a relatively minor issue (particularly against faster characters and ones with good OOS options) but still one worth noting.

Overall we're in agreement that Chrom's recovery is a issue that not only outweighs every issue Roy has, but it's such an issue that it'll hinder Chrom's performances in bracket. People need to understand recovery makes or breaks a character's viability. Chrom can be completely amazing on stage all he wants (and he will be, his frame data and his kit is too good to think otherwise) but that all flies out the window when he gets hit off stage and his double jump is snatched.

It's actually kind of funny, I'm almost beginning think Aether was added with the idea of keeping Chrom from being too out of control.

 

[Izanagi97]

Roy's DED started at Frame 6 in Smash 4. Like Marcina DB changes, Roy and Chrom's DED was adjusted to be active starting frame 9. The changes to DED is still a significant buff for Roy when compared to Smash 4 even with the 3 frame start-up because it will link reliably and actually kill wheras in Smash 4 the move was all but useless at medium to higher percents. However the 3 frames of added startup will be a relatively minor issue (particularly against faster characters and ones with good OOS options) but still one worth noting.

Overall we're in agreement that Chrom's recovery is a issue that not only outweighs every issue Roy has, but it's such an issue that it'll hinder Chrom's performances in bracket. People need to understand recovery makes or breaks a character's viability. Chrom can be completely amazing on stage all he wants (and he will be, his frame data and his kit is too good to think otherwise) but that all flies out the window when he gets hit off stage and his double jump is snatched.

It's actually kind of funny, I'm almost beginning think Aether was added with the idea of keeping Chrom from being too out of control.

Frankly, I just hope that the recovery issue doesn't outright cripple him (hyperbole, I know, but still). Then again, balance patches are a thing.

 

[Arthur97]

Roy's DED started at Frame 6 in Smash 4. Like Marcina DB changes, Roy and Chrom's DED was adjusted to be active starting frame 9. The changes to DED is still a significant buff for Roy when compared to Smash 4 even with the 3 frame start-up because it will link reliably and actually kill wheras in Smash 4 the move was all but useless at medium to higher percents. However the 3 frames of added startup will be a relatively minor issue (particularly against faster characters and ones with good OOS options) but still one worth noting.

Overall we're in agreement that Chrom's recovery is a issue that not only outweighs every issue Roy has, but it's such an issue that it'll hinder Chrom's performances in bracket. People need to understand recovery makes or breaks a character's viability. Chrom can be completely amazing on stage all he wants (and he will be, his frame data and his kit is too good to think otherwise) but that all flies out the window when he gets hit off stage and his double jump is snatched.

It's actually kind of funny, I'm almost beginning think Aether was added with the idea of keeping Chrom from being too out of control.

Sure you're maybe not a little bit biased?

 

[FE_SLaDe]

Sure you're maybe not a little bit biased?

Not particularly, just calling it how I see it. If you believe that Chrom won't suffer from inconsistency issues with that recovery then you're free to have that opinion.

 

[Arthur97]

Not particularly, just calling it how I see it. If you believe that Chrom won't suffer from inconsistency issues with that recovery then you're free to have that opinion.

He'll suffer, but I'm not convinced it's going to doom him.

 

[Izanagi97]

He'll suffer, but I'm not convinced it's going to doom him.

I mean at worst, he'd probably end up around mid tier. Honestly, I kinda see him either being lower high tier or upper mid (then again, that's based on me playing things in my head rather than taking into account preliminary tier lists since those things are speculation and some are going off a Smash 4 perspective.)

 

[Arthur97]

I mean at worst, he'd probably end up around mid tier. Honestly, I kinda see him either being lower high tier or upper mid (then again, that's based on me playing things in my head rather than taking into account preliminary tier lists since those things are speculation and some are going off a Smash 4 perspective.)

Also, what about other fighters who have less than stellar recoveries? Mario's is linear and predictable, but he's still good (in 4). Yes, it's not the same thing, but it's something.

 

[Jak8]

I should also mention that with Chrom's new up-b, he also can't do combos such as down throw to up-b or jab to up-b or even f-air to up-b. Not to mention that Chrom's up-b will have a harder time killing than Roy's will (at least vertically) due to the way it works.

 

[Izanagi97]

I should also mention that with Chrom's new up-b, he also can't do combos such as down throw to up-b or jab to up-b or even f-air to up-b. Not to mention that Chrom's up-b will have a harder time killing than Roy's will (at least vertically) due to the way it works.

Does make me wonder how it could be used to score kills near the ledge via spike (even though it would probably be hard to do)

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Also, what about other fighters who have less than stellar recoveries? Mario's is linear and predictable, but he's still good (in 4). Yes, it's not the same thing, but it's something.

Mario's in 4 was incredibly safe and had invul frames. He also could propell himself with cape, and wasn't a fast faller.

 

[FE_SLaDe]

I should also mention that with Chrom's new up-b, he also can't do combos such as down throw to up-b or jab to up-b or even f-air to up-b. Not to mention that Chrom's up-b will have a harder time killing than Roy's will (at least vertically) due to the way it works.

Aether (Chrom's Up B) has Chrom swinging in front of him at frame 9 (same frame that F-air becomes active) and he doesn't toss his sword like Ike. In theory this means that Aether will most likely combo off of jabs and F-airs at lower-medium percentages. It definitely would in Smash 4 but there is decreased hit-stun in Ultimate so we'll know for sure when the game comes out.

 

[Izanagi97]

Aether (Chrom's Up B) has Chrom swinging in front of him at frame 9 (same frame that F-air becomes active) and he doesn't toss his sword like Ike. In theory this means that Aether will most likely combo off of jabs and F-airs at lower-medium percentages. It definitely would in Smash 4 but there is decreased hit-stun in Ultimate so we'll know for sure when the game comes out.

The real question is if Aether will always true combo into the spike mostly because I want to see some combos that end with an aether spike at the ledge just to see if it would work.

 

[FE_SLaDe]

The real question is if Aether will always true combo into the spike mostly because I want to see some combos that end with an aether spike at the ledge just to see if it would work.

That's a really good question I've been wondering about as well. The footage I've seen of it so far consistently spiked so I dunno. Then again, the footage I saw always had Chrom hitting with the initial swing.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Aether (Chrom's Up B) has Chrom swinging in front of him at frame 9 (same frame that F-air becomes active) and he doesn't toss his sword like Ike. In theory this means that Aether will most likely combo off of jabs and F-airs at lower-medium percentages. It definitely would in Smash 4 but there is decreased hit-stun in Ultimate so we'll know for sure when the game comes out.

Don't forget to mention the fact that Up-Special change alone makes Chrom's out of shield game far less scary at high % since he can't threaten to take stocks with Aether like Roy with Blazer can.

 

[Jak8]

Aether (Chrom's Up B) has Chrom swinging in front of him at frame 9 (same frame that F-air becomes active) and he doesn't toss his sword like Ike. In theory this means that Aether will most likely combo off of jabs and F-airs at lower-medium percentages. It definitely would in Smash 4 but there is decreased hit-stun in Ultimate so we'll know for sure when the game comes out.

Sure, it can combo at 0 percent (maybe at a little higher percents well), but it definitely won't work as a kill confirm.

Don't forget to mention the fact that Up-Special change alone makes Chrom's out of shield game far less scary at high % since he can't threaten to take stocks with Blazer like Roy can.

I also agree with this claim. Chrom can only really KO with his Aether either close to the ledge or offstage.

 

[Fell God]

I think that many people are underestimating just how similar echo fighters are. I know the average YouTube commenter isn't exactly the epitome of knowledge, or even indicative of Smashboard's general consensus, but there is a widespread...disregard of Chrom. This is interesting because another widely held opinion is that Roy will be high or top tier. After studying the holy texts of YT comment sections, I have discovered the singular reasoning for both of these seemingly contradictory ideas.

On the topic of Roy, it's because Zero said it and top players are always right about everything and are never wrong ever. As for Chrom it's because his recovery is not good, this was made evident by Bill Trinen and his amazing Smash Bros skills.

However! It is important to note that Roy's recovery is also quite poor, owing to his still pathetic midair jump, high falling speed, far below average air acceleration hampering his amazing air speed, all compounded by the low distance traveled by his up special. Yes, its speed and good hitboxes improve its safety, but undeniably, his vertical recovery is very low, comparable to Donkey Kong's. Chrom's up special, however, has very good vertical distance and super armor as well, though it is quite slow and exploitable. You might say that Blazer's speed makes it strictly better than "Aether" but that simply isn't the case, as Chrom has the added protection of super armor. Also, one small note is that Chrom is actually better able to go for down airs offstage since his recovery goes much higher than Roy's, the endlag of the move often causing our boy to fall a bit too low to make to make it back, even with his jump available.

Obviously, Roy and Chrom also are differentiated by their blades, but it is a trade-off, their positive and negatives giving neither a strict advantage over the other. And...that's it. They don't differ in any other notable aspect. Regardless of who ends up being better, this perception that Chrom is bottom tier and Roy is on the opposite end is self-contradictory at best. Not that anyone here is guilty of that, but I just thought I'd state that, again, regardless of who ends up being better, their tier positions won't differ by more than a few spots. They both have terrible recoveries.

 

[Izanagi97]

I think that many people are underestimating just how similar echo fighters are. I know the average YouTube commenter isn't exactly the epitome of knowledge, or even indicative of Smashboard's general consensus, but there is a widespread...disregard of Chrom. This is interesting because another widely held opinion is that Roy will be high or top tier. After studying the holy texts of YT comment sections, I have discovered the singular reasoning for both of these seemingly contradictory ideas.

On the topic of Roy, it's because Zero said it and top players are always right about everything and are never wrong ever. As for Chrom it's because his recovery is not good, this was made evident by Bill Trinen and his amazing Smash Bros skills.

However! It is important to note that Roy's recovery is also quite poor, owing to his still pathetic midair jump, high falling speed, far below average air acceleration hampering his amazing air speed, all compounded by the low distance traveled by his up special. Yes, its speed and good hitboxes improve its safety, but undeniably, his vertical recovery is very low, comparable to Donkey Kong's. Chrom's up special, however, has very good vertical distance and super armor as well, though it is quite slow and exploitable. You might say that Blazer's speed makes it strictly better than "Aether" but that simply isn't the case, as Chrom has the added protection of super armor. Also, one small note is that Chrom is actually better able to go for down airs offstage since his recovery goes much higher than Roy's, the endlag of the move often causing our boy to fall a bit too low to make to make it back, even with his jump available.

Obviously, Roy and Chrom also are differentiated by their blades, but it is a trade-off, their positive and negatives giving neither a strict advantage over the other. And...that's it. They don't differ in any other notable aspect. Regardless of who ends up being better, this perception that Chrom is bottom tier and Roy is on the opposite end is self-contradictory at best. Not that anyone here is guilty of that, but I just thought I'd state that, again, regardless of who ends up being bette, their over positions won't differ by more than a few spots. They both have terrible recoveries.

Yeah, I find it really hard to believe that a difference in recovery (Chrom trading horizontal recovery for vertical recovery) would result in the echo and the base being separated by multiple tiers.

 

[san.]

One thing to note is that Chrom has aether, but it's 50% faster than Ike's, and nearly twice as fast as the smash 4 version. This should aid against dropzone aerials and allow the move to be used a bit more reactively.

For Ike, his aether retains the spike hitbox all the way down this time around (It was removed from brawl->smash 4 and returns in ultimate) I imagine Chrom's will as well. This means that it may be tricky to combat if Chrom recovers medium-height to high without a counter.

I don't like the comparison to Little Mac since he struggled due to the combination of poor aerials making him juggle food, as well as a poor recovery (which isn't going to get much better with this update unless the cooldown on sideB is significantly small). Chrom should get much better use out of his aerials and specials.

 

[Jak8]

another widely held opinion is that Roy will be high or top tier.

It is important to note that Roy's recovery is also quite poor, owing to his still pathetic midair jump, high falling speed, far below average air acceleration hampering his amazing air speed, all compounded by the low distance traveled by his up special.

I honestly only think Roy will be high tier at best. ZeRo only used Roy a little bit during tournaments, so I highly doubt that he would be able to determine Roy's position on the tier list as top tier.
As for his recovery also being bad, I think the general idea is that Roy will just have more options for recovery than Chrom because his horizontal recovery is even just slightly better. Plus, in terms of edgeguarding, Chrom can't go out very far since he doesn't have as good of a horizontal recovery while Roy can go out pretty far due to his better recovery. Chrom's recovery works better in tandom with Quick Draw in my opinion since more often than not, recovery will be done horizontally in this new game, and since Chrom doesn't have that, he has to pretty much hope that his opponent doesn't know how to edgeguard well or just doesn't opt to edgeguard, and considering how potent edgeguarding offstage is in this game, I honestly can't see that as being a bad play at all, especially against Chrom (and even if Chrom CAN up-b to KO both him and his opponent, the opponent can also bait it so that he doesn't get hit by it).

Admittedly, I'm no Roy expert. In fact, I might get proven wrong entirely when the game comes out and we can purposely set time to test this stuff out. But this is all based on things we've noticed from gameplay either we've already played (I wish I could have played it, but I won't get the chance until the game comes out) or just from watching videos.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

I honestly think the whole recovery thing will come down to how good Chrom and Roy's respective neutrals are. If they are as good on stage as people seem to think, they might not get thrown off that often. I do think Roy will have more kill confirms, since aether kills (do we know that it still does, actually? a lot of recovery kill moves have been nerfed). Chrom might do slightly better with reads, though, since he doesn't have to space quite as precisely.

There's also the chance that good Chrom play will look more like Lucina's than Roy's, or even a hybrid of the two with more emphasis on spacing until it's safe to do otherwise.

 

[godogod]

They should have changed chrom's side b to Ike's quick draw. Be a true Roy and ike hybrid than deal with the awful recovery

 

[The DanMan051]

They should have changed chrom's side b to Ike's quick draw. Be a true Roy and ike hybrid than deal with the awful recovery

Or just given him the diagonal variation that was one of Ike's customs in 4.