Derf's thoughts on kirby

[DerfMidWest]

I've been playing a lot of kirby in smash4. I think he's a pretty solid character, and he's straight pimpin.

Obviously his major weaknesses are his movement and more limited kill power (the second isn't too big a deal because everyone in smash4 has limited kill power anyway)

he struggles a bit with punishing rolls, which seems to be a theme in this game, so you kind of have to play rock paper scissors when baiting them. Dash attack is decent at catching roll away though. you can also utilt to punish roll in, or fsmash behind.
I've been getting a lot of people with the shiz. I assume because most people online are pretty new to smash and aren't familiar with that bait.

he also seems to have a bit of trouble dealing with characters directly above him, since his uair has pretty bad range and ends up trading a lot, which is ok sometimes. UpB seems to work reasonably well if you can drift back a bit.

But he has some pretty solid options.
In neutral you can still crouch under most projectiles, like in other smash games, and it seems like very few characters can grab you while crouching also, even more so than in other smash games, I assume because a lot of characters, especially the popular ones, have a bigger frame now.
This is really useful for baiting things out.

His edgeguarding isn't as strong as in melee or 64, but having his dair spike again is really awesome for low percent gimps.
Bair is definitely not as good as it was though.

Fair is really cool in this game. If they don't DI (or vector or whatever you kids call it these days), fair grab is a pretty legit option. you can also low fair into ftilt or fsmash.

Fsmash is definitely kirby's best kill move. But dsmash sets up stuff and puts your opponent in a bad position, usmash also can kill pretty well at high percent.

I think FD (or omega stages) is his best stage because it lets him really abuse final cutter in neutral, which works oddly well since everyone has terrible mobility in this game.
Having platforms is alright too since you can poke with uair. Because of that, I think yoshi's is probably second best, since it's just the one low platform. (I'm playing 3ds right now, I'd think smashville would be even better for him in wiiu).
Battlefield has the problem with the top platform. It's kinda hard for kirby to reach. you can upB up there, but people could shielddrop->aerial punish, or just drop their shield and punish since that's a thing in this game.
You can also try to float under it and poke with uair, but it takes kirby a minute to get down from there, so I don't like it.

Oh his throws, I love bthrow the most. At low percent on a lot of characters, it'll combo into bair, which is really cool.
Dthrow is pretty good at mid-percent since it keeps people in a bad position.
Fthrow also has pretty low knockback, so you can use it at mid and low percents to follow up into other stuff.
Uthrow seems to be a kill move at high percent, which is really funny to me.

Swallow seems to have less range than in other games, or at least the hitbox is weird and just straight in front of kirby. It doesn't have a lot of vertical height. It's still pretty good for grabbing people out of the air, it's just a bit harder to do than in melee or something.
When people break out, they seem to fall a lot further than you before they can act. this might be linked to weight, but I'm not sure. I've had a couple people break out, then I jumped up and daired their recovery. Not sure how reliable that is, but it's worth testing.
Haven't worked out how low I have to go to kill every character yet. I'm assuming there are a fair number of characters you need to take all the way to the killzone. Off the top of my head, I would think they are as follows (possible forgetting some): Kirby, puff, lucario, greninja, pika, villager. maybe zelda on some stages. Not sure if I'm forgetting anyone.

but yeah, those are my thoughts/observations so far.
I'll probably post more once I start understanding his individual matchups better.

 

[DerfMidWest]

My thoughts on a few matchups I've played so far:

Lil mac is annoying, I don't think it's the worst matchup, but I think kirby definitely has to work harder.
Fortunately, most lil mac players seem to be really dumb and will just kinda run in with the same two approaches, so you can really take advantage of that.
I think he's very good at locking kirby down at the ledge because his rollback->fsmash covers like 3 options, so you have to mix your stuff up a lot to get back. You can also swallow his fsmash sometimes.
It's a lot easier once you get stage control, but he can take it back more quickly than I'd like.
His roll->dsmash also makes it a little difficult to punish him for rolling, still doable though.
Obv, once he's offstage, it's free. Watch out for his counter though, because it sends him surprisingly far forward, so you can't be lazy with your edgeguards.
I think the KO punch is a bad mechanic. But he has it, so you have to make sure you don't whiff moves. I had my bair OoS baited once or twice and was pleasantly reminded how dumb that thing is.
Lil mac also sucks at getting off the ledge, so keep that in mind. Stay back enough so he can't aerial, and look for sideB or roll. Watch out for counter from the ledge as a mixup, so react rather than predict.

Sonic seems like he could be kinda difficult, because his movement can be really hard to handle.
I stopped trying to challenge his like spin thing (I'm not sure if it's his downB or his SideB... or neutralB...). What I found works consistently, is to bait it, then just shield it. If he jumps out of it and uairs as a generic response, just bair OoS. If he tries to come back behind you, just keep shield up. Usually they get discouraged if they can't hit you with it and the matchup becomes 100x easier.
Challenging it is a bad idea and makes it really hard though.

I think greninja is kirbys worst matchup. Really haven't been able to find an answer to it yet.

I think DDD is pretty difficult too. His little traps with sideB can be hard to deal with.
But you have the speed advantage going on for you.

Villager is a little troublesome, but it's not that bad.

I think kirby bodies these characters (from my own experience):

Marth, Lucina, robin, falcon, bowser, sheik (it's pretty even actually), peach, and a few others.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

May I ask what your MU experiences are from? Like, are they from For Glory?

 

[XStarWarriorX]

I think greninja is kirbys worst matchup. Really haven't been able to find an answer to it yet.



.

He's a FF'er. Up-tilt. he will not be able to get out and you get a free 50%+ even amazing gren's get abused by this. anyway DDD and Yoshi are his hardest matchups.

With any else... with all my smash exp. and 1000+ FG matches and ladder matches.... Theres really no trouble for kirby other than these two. Some may be "annoying" but doable. The two i mentioned can be impossible depending on the spacing.

DDD can wall you out despite his slowness, he beats everything you can throw at him. Yoshi egg spam and aerial speed and strength can really do you in.

Like i said in the MU thread (and in the hard MU thread somewhere else), any other character isnt really difficult and I can back it up if you dont believe me. Gren's not a big deal unless you keep getting caught in his up-smash's and grabs. Kirby is so underrated here, he can beat any character he faces most likely.

Just DDD and yoshi imo is what would give him trouble. Not gren.

 

[DerfMidWest]

May I ask what your MU experiences are from? Like, are they from For Glory?

yes they are general impressions from just playing online, then just theory crafting. The way I think is a little different though since I still look at smash from a melee-esque perspective, so I wouldn't recommend reading into them too hard.

He's a FF'er. Up-tilt. he will not be able to get out and you get a free 50%+ even amazing gren's get abused by this. anyway DDD and Yoshi are his hardest matchups.

With any else... with all my smash exp. and 1000+ FG matches and ladder matches.... Theres really no trouble for kirby other than these two. Some may be "annoying" but doable. The two i mentioned can be impossible depending on the spacing.

DDD can wall you out despite his slowness, he beats everything you can throw at him. Yoshi egg spam and aerial speed and strength can really do you in.

Like i said in the MU thread (and in the hard MU thread somewhere else), any other character isnt really difficult and I can back it up if you dont believe me. Gren's not a big deal unless you keep getting caught in his up-smash's and grabs. Kirby is so underrated here, he can beat any character he faces most likely.

Just DDD and yoshi imo is what would give him trouble. Not gren.

ROFL you don't need to list your credentials, I'm ****ing DerfMW.

I get the impression that kirby has relatively decent matchups against the majority of the cast. I would like more experience against smash4 yoshi, as he's really different from his other incarnations, so I don't quite understand him yet. I would assume the general concept is the same of basically looking for the dj and baiting out an aerial, then just hitting him off stage. But I could see how that would be harder in smash4 since movement is garbo.

I've noticed the issue with DDD walling.

The issue I was finding with greninja was more the very small window you have to punish his rolls and the inability to get low percent gimps.
I also feel like he strongly outplays kirby in the neutral game.
But the game is still really young, and this is a matchup I see getting worse as it develops.

Another matchup that has been annoying me, personally, is ROB, but I think this is mostly attributed to the fact that I wasn't a brawl player and I'm not used to that kind of gimmicky character.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

yes they are general impressions from just playing online, then just theory crafting. The way I think is a little different though since I still look at smash from a melee-esque perspective, so I wouldn't recommend reading into them too hard.




ROFL you don't need to list your credentials, I'm ****ing DerfMW.

I get the impression that kirby has relatively decent matchups against the majority of the cast. I would like more experience against smash4 yoshi, as he's really different from his other incarnations, so I don't quite understand him yet. I would assume the general concept is the same of basically looking for the dj and baiting out an aerial, then just hitting him off stage. But I could see how that would be harder in smash4 since movement is garbo.

I've noticed the issue with DDD walling.

The issue I was finding with greninja was more the very small window you have to punish his rolls and the inability to get low percent gimps.
I also feel like he strongly outplays kirby in the neutral game.
But the game is still really young, and this is a matchup I see getting worse as it develops.

Another matchup that has been annoying me, personally, is ROB, but I think this is mostly attributed to the fact that I wasn't a brawl player and I'm not used to that kind of gimmicky character.

Sorry I dont recognize you as I do some others around here, I just listed in case you'd pass me off.

Anyway yes you are correct. That's kind of hard to do since, yoshi's aerials are quick, baiting it out will be difficult to do because you will most likely trade badly and even if you do get him offstage his super armor will protect him from any gimps. its really hard to get in because you will most likely get jabbed for free, so I hope that myself and other kirby mains gather some info on this MU since it is the hardest to win after all the matches i've done. My point is, yoshi is super safe, like... the safest of safe.

Noted.

Well, you could bait out a ground move and punish, his multi jab can be floated out of, and if you manage to get a hit, all you gotta do is up-tilt for free damage and then punish again with a smash attack, he should be off-stage at this point, then its all about predicting a out spacing him for KO's. (yes its possible even with his crazy movement, esp when he does DA or SS) For me, I have no trouble with this MU as of yet, but I can see where your coming from though.

Oh rob? well in the brawl MU it can be quite annoying if the Rob player handles the gyro well. In smash 4 though since kirby can combo a bit, this MU is a little better, since in brawl one hit from kirby and rob can just air dodge away and camp. But its the same playstyle against a rob here, duck and shield, inch closer, bait out a grab, then you can heavily punish with a jab>grab/dair,u-tilt and so on, most will try to neutral air out of the combo but kirby's u-air's are fast enough to keep it going. and since shield is so good in this game you should have no problem against his projectiles, and that's when most will try to grab you and thats when you can strike.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Sorry I dont recognize you as I do some others around here, I just listed in case you'd pass me off.

Anyway yes you are correct. That's kind of hard to do since, yoshi's aerials are quick, baiting it out will be difficult to do because you will most likely trade badly and even if you do get him offstage his super armor will protect him from any gimps. its really hard to get in because you will most likely get jabbed for free, so I hope that myself and other kirby mains gather some info on this MU since it is the hardest to win after all the matches i've done. My point is, yoshi is super safe, like... the safest of safe.

Noted.

Well, you could bait out a ground move and punish, his multi jab can be floated out of, and if you manage to get a hit, all you gotta do is up-tilt for free damage and then punish again with a smash attack, he should be off-stage at this point, then its all about predicting a out spacing him for KO's. (yes its possible even with his crazy movement, esp when he does DA or SS) For me, I have no trouble with this MU as of yet, but I can see where your coming from though.

Oh rob? well in the brawl MU it can be quite annoying if the Rob player handles the gyro well. In smash 4 though since kirby can combo a bit, this MU is a little better, since in brawl one hit from kirby and rob can just air dodge away and camp. But its the same playstyle against a rob here, duck and shield, inch closer, bait out a grab, then you can heavily punish with a jab>grab/dair,u-tilt and so on, most will try to neutral air out of the combo but kirby's u-air's are fast enough to keep it going. and since shield is so good in this game you should have no problem against his projectiles, and that's when most will try to grab you and thats when you can strike.

baiting aerials for yoshi isn't too hard. you jump like right outside his range, then fade back. kirby has pretty decent aerial mobility, so you can just fade back, then bair him or something.
he is pretty safe, which is why you have to force him to make a mistake, which isn't too hard at all.
what's weird to me is yoshi's dj mechanics, since (melee/64) djc isn't a thing, but once he has the momentum, he has to keep going unless he uses downb, which is punishable if you're in position.

I've been starting to figure the rob mu out a little more, its still just pretty foreign feeling.

 

[DerfMidWest]

An observation of mario:
I think mario's fireballs got buffed super hard in smash4.
because of how low they are to the ground, kirby can't crouch under them, and going over them doesn't seem like such a good idea, because above mario (or most characters) is not the best place to be.
I noticed also if you come down on top of one with upB, the fireball wins the trade.
So really in that matchup, if mario is just throwing out a lot of fireballs (which is really lame, but what he should be doing) you have to just inch your way forward in shield then try to punish him for giving up stage control.
But, If he isn't fireballing a bunch, I don't think he's terribly good against kirby.
his fsmash and dsmash can punish spaced aerials on shield, but they don't really kill exceptionally well, especially since mario gets backed against the ledge so easily.

he combos really well, but it doesn't actually matter because if he hits me with like 10 moves I'm still only at like 40%, and he can't kill anything.
Mario seems to really rely on gimps, which are not too easy on kirby (or... a lot of characters in this game)
Kirby doesn't have the greatest kill power either, but it's better than mario's.

he also gets gimped pretty easily, although his upB has a kinda odd hitbox (like in every smash game).

I don't feel like mario wins the MU, but it's definitely annoying. Mostly just because of the neutral game.

 

[C.O.M.M]

An observation of mario:
I think mario's fireballs got buffed super hard in smash4.
because of how low they are to the ground, kirby can't crouch under them, and going over them doesn't seem like such a good idea, because above mario (or most characters) is not the best place to be.
I noticed also if you come down on top of one with upB, the fireball wins the trade.
So really in that matchup, if mario is just throwing out a lot of fireballs (which is really lame, but what he should be doing) you have to just inch your way forward in shield then try to punish him for giving up stage control.
But, If he isn't fireballing a bunch, I don't think he's terribly good against kirby.
his fsmash and dsmash can punish spaced aerials on shield, but they don't really kill exceptionally well, especially since mario gets backed against the ledge so easily.

he combos really well, but it doesn't actually matter because if he hits me with like 10 moves I'm still only at like 40%, and he can't kill anything.
Mario seems to really rely on gimps, which are not too easy on kirby (or... a lot of characters in this game)
Kirby doesn't have the greatest kill power either, but it's better than mario's.

he also gets gimped pretty easily, although his upB has a kinda odd hitbox (like in every smash game).

I don't feel like mario wins the MU, but it's definitely annoying. Mostly just because of the neutral game.

Plus making Kirby get fireballs is a great strategy as well, Kirby's high jumps work really well with the gravity effects of the fireballs, they just drop like meteors and hit from above as well as acts as a good counter against Mario's fireball spam. I've really dominated some good Mario's with some good fireball play.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Plus making Kirby get fireballs is a great strategy as well, Kirby's high jumps work really well with the gravity effects of the fireballs, they just drop like meteors and hit from above as well as acts as a good counter against Mario's fireball spam. I've really dominated some good Mario's with some good fireball play.

good to know. In general, I try to avoid stealing powers, because in other smash games, a lot of times it limits your options (not always), so I haven't played around with many stolen powers with kirby in this game.
when you release someone from swallow in this game, do they enter hitstun? because in melee if you steal a power, they can hit you before the animation is over.

 

[Asdioh]

when you release someone from swallow in this game, do they enter hitstun? because in melee if you steal a power, they can hit you before the animation is over.

This was seriously in Melee? Ugh.

Well bad news, it was in Brawl, and now Smash4 too!

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbys-epic-guide-ssb4-3ds.367840/page-7#post-18074328

 

[DerfMidWest]

This was seriously in Melee? Ugh.

Well bad news, it was in Brawl, and now Smash4 too!

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbys-epic-guide-ssb4-3ds.367840/page-7#post-18074328

yeah swallow was like... really bad in melee. Most people don't realize they can just hit kirby out of it though.
But for a lot of characters, it opened kirby up to basically getting at least like 50% (which is a lot more in melee than it is in brawl or smash4, since kirby basically dies at 70% in NTSC)

Anyway, playing this game more, I'm realizing just how much of a killing problem kirby has on most characters.
Which has historically been a problem of his in smash (iunno anything about brawl kirby tho).
This really puts emphasis on gimping, which isn't new for kirby.

Fortunately, his dair is crazy broken. But for some characters, you need to follow them basically down to the killzone with it. But it's great since you can just dair someone, then rising dair their double jump then rising dair most upBs

At low-mid percent, on a lot of characters, when you dair offstage, if you just jump right after it, it will footstool people who try to double jump right away, which is really good and makes me laugh.