Deconfirmation Thoughts

[TheKingOfEvil2014]

Assist Trophies are now seen as rejected playable fighters. It's a bit sad because Sakurai probably didn't mean ATs to be just that.
I decided to draft this post to share my thoughts on character deconfirmation.

Back in the Brawl days, it was safe to assume a character being an AT meant they weren't playable in the base game. Why would they be implemented as a playable fighter and as an Assist Trophy? It didn't make sense. Thus, ATs were scrapped.

In the Smash 4 days, it was the same for ATs. Background elements were shown to be meaningless when it was revealed that Toon Link in Spirit Tracks is replaced by Alfonzo when Toon Link is fighting. This was probably the first time a supposed deconfirmation was nullified in the base game. When DLC came around, no ATs were promoted. However, trophies were. Mewtwo and Lucas had trophies in the base game and were later added as playable characters with fighter trophies. This is probably why several people think spirits don't deconfirm fighters.

For Ultimate, some things changed. For one, trophies were replaced by spirits, which incited discussion about whether or not they deconfirm DLC fighters. More significantly, though, it was shown that Chrom was part of Robin's Final Smash; Robin's victory animation; he was a Mii Costume; and he was playable. This isn't an Alfonzo situation either. From what I understand, Chrom is still present in the FS when Chrom is part of the battle.

I could've still considered ATs to be completely impossible if there had been confirmation that the development team goes out of its way to remove fighters from other relevant appearances in the base game, but Chrom still appearing in Robin's FS proves that this isn't the case.

I'm not saying Assist Trophies will be promoted or that you have to agree with me; I'm just asking the community to consider them as possibilities.
Thank you for reading.

 

[Isaac: Venus Adept]

I think another interesting possibility is for a character that looks similar or can perform similar moves to be a possible replacement if they ever decide to upgrade an assist trophy like Matthew for Isaac or Spring-Tron for Spring Man

 

[Cetus]

I believe assists are death in Smash. DLC is likely going to be completely new characters and if any assist were to be upgraded, I think we'd see them before their assist. It just wouldn't make sense to unceremoniously present the assist trophy and then. Unfortunately for Isaac... I don't think Ultimate will be his time.

 

[Sabertooth]

I do believe at this point Assist Trophies are the only true deconfirmations. Mii costumes, Spirits, and stage elements are fine. The biggest Assist Trophy death this time around was probably Isaac, and I feel strongly for his fans. It bewilders me that he isn't a fighter because I assumed he'd be a shoe-in based on Sakurai's taste for characters like him. So strange.

To be perfectly frank though, on an objective level, there's no such thing as a deconfirmation. Sakurai could be designing Isaac as a character as we speak, and then we'd get the DLC and think "well, that's weird that Isaac is both a fighter and an AT" just like we thought "well, that's weird that Chrom is both a fighter and a final smash". It could happen because this is a video game, not reality, and Sakurai can do whatever the heck he darn well pleases!

That being said I don't think we'll see Waluigi, Shovel Knight, Bomberman, Ashley, Shadow, or Isaac. But at the end of the day anything is possible with games.

 

[SvartWolf]

I think another interesting possibility is for a character that looks similar or can perform similar moves to be a possible replacement if they ever decide to upgrade an assist trophy like Matthew for Isaac or Spring-Tron for Spring Man

look at chrom...

please, look at him....

if an AT is made playable, i don't think they would even delete nor change the old assist trophy.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Assist Trophies right now are the only solid 100% deconfirmations, since we don't have enough details on Spirits yet.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

Yeah, with all the info we have now AT's are a hard deconfirmation. Characters can be upgraded between games, but it's never happened in the same game before. Not to say it's 100% impossible, but as far as we know there's no evidence for it.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Yeah, with all the info we have now AT's are a hard deconfirmation. Characters can be upgraded between games, but it's never happened in the same game before. Not to say it's 100% impossible, but as far as we know there's no evidence for it.

I still don't understand why some people hold on to the notion that AT's can still be playable.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I still don't understand why some people hold on to the notion that AT's can still be playable.

I still don't understand why some people hold on to the notion that characters in Final Smashes can still be playable.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I still don't understand why some people hold on to the notion that characters in Final Smashes can still be playable.

Oh good one. That actually made me laugh.

For the record, I have no clue why Chrom is still in Robin's final smash. They could have chosen a million different things for her. Maybe it's because since this game is focused more on the competitive audience than Smash 4 and Brawl, they decided that people would care less about the final smashes in the long run and it won't be a big issue.

 

[Guynamednelson]

For the record, I have no clue why Chrom is still in Robin's final smash. They could have chosen a million different things for her. Maybe it's because since this game is focused more on the competitive audience than Smash 4 and Brawl, they decided that people would care less about the final smashes in the long run and it won't be a big issue.

Chrom's inclusion is rushed, as you can see with things like that and his victory theme not matching Robin and Lucina.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Chrom's inclusion is rushed, as you can see with things like that and his victory theme not matching Robin and Lucina.

Wait, what? his victory theme is the normal one? Shoot.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

While I'm sad that Waluigi, Krystal, Black Knight, and Spring-Man are assists. I had an idea awhile ago where even if they aren't playable I'd love to own amiibo for assist trophy characters as well. One of my ideas is make amiibo of assist trophies and if you tap them they appear more often on the battlefield or something.

I really want amiibo figures for Krystal, Black Knight, Isaac, Spring-Man, Ashley, Skull Kid, Ghirahim, Klaptrap.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

While I'm sad that Waluigi, Krystal, Black Knight, and Spring-Man are assists. I had an idea awhile ago where even if they aren't playable I'd love to own amiibo for assist trophy characters as well. One of my ideas is make amiibo of assist trophies and if you tap them they appear more often on the battlefield or something.

I really want amiibo figures for Krystal, Black Knight, Isaac, Spring-Man, Ashley, Skull Kid, Ghirahim, Klaptrap.

That's an extra 59 amiibo, but OK.

 

[PK-remling Fire]

While I'm sad that Waluigi, Krystal, Black Knight, and Spring-Man are assists. I had an idea awhile ago where even if they aren't playable I'd love to own amiibo for assist trophy characters as well. One of my ideas is make amiibo of assist trophies and if you tap them they appear more often on the battlefield or something.

When they revealed that there were assist trophies that could be damaged, I thought they might put in a mode where you could pick out and summon certain ATs like how you can summon assists in other fighting games. Ah well, it just wasn't meant to be.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

That's an extra 59 amiibo, but OK.

Oh I don't mean make amiibo for EVERY assist trophy. I just want ones for the ones I listed honestly. I said it before but make like a poll and ask people what characters they would buy amiibo for and then make a limited production on like the top 10 choices. You could probably sell them to Nintendo Switch Online members. Nintendo says they will have more exclusive physical rewards (similar to the NES Switch controllers) for Nintendo Switch Online members in the future to entice people to join the service. I think that would be a cool idea.

 

[Kulty]

AT may be hard deconfirmation, but I still think being a fighter and AT could also make sense. The one I'm thinking of the most is Shadow The Hedgehog. Him being playable (being a semi-clone of Sonic) and being AT does also make sense in the context of his home series. If you have played Sonic Heroes and Shadow The Hedgehog, you may know what I'm talking about.

Regardless, I will still assume that AT deconfirm characters, but not for Spirits.

 

[Guynamednelson]

One thing that should be considered is that echoes are supposed to be deluxe alt costumes, and Smash 4 had a Dark Samus alt for Samus alongside several Mii costumes based on AT and Final Smash characters. I don't know if this would help anyone besides Shadow, Black Knight, and Proto Man, but maybe that's why Chrom is still part of Robin's FS.

 

[Sabertooth]

I think like others have been saying, Robin still has Pair Up because Chrom was an extremely late addition compared to everyone else including the other echoes. Look at his character model--it looks pretty much exactly like the Final Smash one, like they didn't even touch it up or anything. Very below Smash's usual standards, especially when you compare to the immaculate beauty of Ridley and K Rool.

 

[kaithehedgefox]

I think another interesting possibility is for a character that looks similar or can perform similar moves to be a possible replacement if they ever decide to upgrade an assist trophy like Matthew for Isaac or Spring-Tron for Spring Man

To bump up this thread. Since brawl, you can actually do something similar to that via modding. I made a thread about assist trophy replacement mods.

You can simply replace the assist trophy model with a character that has a similar build, such as Goku for Akira or Papyrus for Waluigi.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Assist Trophies may seem like a deconfirmation for now, but maybe in the next game they could start having characters who are both playable fighters and Assist Trophies so that we wouldn't lose all hope when our favorite characters are seen as Assist Trophies? Like maybe the Little Mac Assist Trophy can return along with the playable Little Mac?

 

[TheKingOfEvil2014]

I feel I could've done a better job with this post looking back, but my position has changed a bit anyway.
I'll first comment on my initial point in the context of the post.

My point was that Chrom showed our notion of disconfirmation by already having a different important role in the game is erroneous. Some have given explanations as to why Chrom is an outlier, like his Echo status, his apparent rushed inclusion, and other things surrounding him.
Every time a Smash inclusion rule is challenged, you see people making that rule more broad to fit the new standard. Snake is announced? Alright, so third-parties can join, but only if they've had a game on a Nintendo system. Cloud is announced? Alright, so the only requirement is for their series to have a history with Nintendo. Joker is announced? Well, the games of the series on Nintendo platforms don't have to be mainline; spin-offs count too! And, well, so do 'spin-ons'... Perhaps good counterarguments showed that Chrom was 'the exception that proves the rule', though it's more like it made the rule more specific. And as a separate note, just to get it out there, would it really be difficult to remove Chrom from his place in the FS and get someone else for it? Or change the FS some other way? I'm not exactly a game developer but I do wonder.
I eventually concluded that spirits and ATs probably wouldn't get promoted for the Pass because Piranha Plant didn't have a spirit; considering its importance in the Mario universe even as a little critter, they must've surely removed that from the game, right? Well, that's what I believed, and still do. Those in the Pass were decided before the game was out, so if they had the chance to get them out of their other positions, they would've certainly done so. Why? Because they probably have before. Trophies and spirits are different because spirits have actual gameplay value. It is true that they decided on Mewtwo before Smash Wii U's release and possibly before 3DS', but I clung to the idea that it'd be different with spirits for a variety of reasons.

With more fighters coming now, I believe both ATs and spirits have a chance, but the team may prioritize characters entirely new to Smash, only because of what Sakurai said in the Banjo Presentation. This may be the last time they'll have all these iconic characters together; why not get more?

So that is that.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

With the announcement of more DLC characters coming after Terry's announcement, maybe they should start putting some deconfirmed characters in. All those Assist Trophies and spirits don't leave much room for first-party characters. If there's ten more DLC characters after the Fighter Pass, Smash Ultimate's roster would be 21.7% third-party. But maybe there can be some characters from the more recent Nintendo games that didn't make it to the Spirits collection like Edelgard from Fire Emblem: Three Houses. And that would be if they are single bonus characters like Piranha Plant that don't bring a stage, music collection or spirits for their series. But if they were to bring a new Nintendo series, maybe they could do Astral Chain. Otherwise, they could make certain Assist Trophies like Spring Man playable and put an ARMS stage in. Maybe? Nah, that would force a lot of Spirits in the Other category change into ARMS spirits and mess with the order. Looks like the chances of Spirits from unrepped series being playable would be when Sakurai starts development on Smash 6. And if all the third-party characters end up being cut from the next game and it becomes a strictly Nintendo-based game, then all the potential third-party characters like Tails, Shantae, Shovel Knight, Bomberman, etc would have lost their chances.