Decloning Echoes

[MattVRox0525]

If we could make echo fighters unique, how would you do so?
Note: Animation differences will not be noted, as every echo has visual changes.
I’ll start:

Already has: Faster rolls, slight damage differences, shorter/wider hurtbox
What I would do: Probably give her a new move, relating to Phazon energy. She has potential for a full moveset.

Already has: Shorter/wider hurtbox
What I would do: Who said it was ok to remove the only viable difference in the turnip knockback? Now they’re basically glorified skins like we initially thought

Already has: No tipper
What I would do: Maybe give Lucina a new move. Being one of the only veteran echoes from SSB4, alongside Dark Pit, who has a couple of unique moves, it could make sense. Maybe give Lucina a move that’s actually based on a skill from FE. Maybe they can give her a sort of Aether that actually heals her.

Already has: No... baser? Hinger? Reverse-tipper? Eh, you get the point. No fire, different Up B
What I would do: Maybe change Chrom’s tilts. Idk I got nothing else

Already has: Different Neutral B, different Side B
What I would do: Make Dark Pit use his staff more. Seriously, he has a staff but never uses it (except for his Final Smash, but nobody cares about that). Why?

Already has: Different command input moves, slightly faster, multi-hit moves, different FSmash, fire Shoryu, less kill power for more combo power, etc.
What I would do: Many people say Ken is unique already, but we can do more. Maybe we can change Ken’s USmash and DSmash. I dunno.

Already has: Holy water differences
What I would do: Probably change some more of their specials. Maybe make Axe, Cross and Uppercut send at different angles (although this would probably be a hard nerf, depending on how they pulled it off). Ehhhh I got nothing else.

What would you guys do to declone the echo fighters?

 

[Xelrog]

Lucina, Chrom, and Ken are fine. They're what other echoes should strive to be: not totally unique, but different enough that there's a reason to pick one or the other.



: Got nothing. I don't follow Metroid or know anything about the characters. I'd be fine if she was just an alt, personally.

: Harder hitting, but no floating. She's more athletic than Peach but has never been associated with floating. Also replace the turnips with something aesthetically different (carrots?) and if we want to go all out, I would replace Toad with a Dayzee that retaliates with sleep bubbles like the custom Toad move in Smash 4.

: Don't know the character, no opinion.

: I also don't know Castlevania but I do have one idea. I'd like if either Simon or Richter didn't have the stomp dair, and instead had a downward whip strike like all the other aerials. I know a downward whip strike was a thing in at least some Castlevania games. Maybe a different up special of some kind, too. Let one of the two keep the brawler combo hits and make the other one more weapons-based.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Her AT moves:

• Smash side-B is her arm cannon spray
• Down smash is her tentacles
• Charge shot is replaced with her homing energy blasts. How many she sends out actually depends on how long you charge the move

• Simon can angle his forward tilt
• Simon has an easier time tether recovering
• Simon's up air and up smash are stronger
• Simon's down air is a downward whip strike
• Richter's uppercut goes higher
• The first part of Richter's sliding kick goes further, and the second deals more damage
• Richter's dash attack deals more damage
• Richter's final smash is Hydro Storm

 

[Quillion]

You know what Dark Samus should have gotten? A variant of the ink system that spreads Phazon on the opponent. It does a bit of damage over time as well as strengthening Phazon-based attacks on the opponent.

I agree that Dark Pit needs to use his staff for his normals, but other than that, I'd say the echoes are fine.

 

[Izanagi97]

Best idea I have is to give Chrom a somewhat unique moveset (incorporating some of his moves in FE:W, mainly the lightning effects) and make Lucina something of a semi-echo of Chrom (since Chrom did train Lucina).

Another idea I have is for Dark Pit to use his staff more and to incorporate the Ogre Club into his smash attacks (I mean 3 weapons associated with him in Uprising are the Silver Bow, the Dark Pit Staff, and the Ogre Club)

 

[Crystanium]

Dark Samus

Ground
Phazon Punch (A, A)
Behaves as a one-two punch with a bit of electrical effect.

Radioactive Rush
Dark Samus becomes invincible when using this attack. Capable of killing at high damage and useful combo set-up.

Aú sem Mão (Up+A)

This attack brings Dark Samus' left or right leg to an arc depending on the direction she's facing, following up with her other leg to bring a full swing against her opponent. Unlike the animation as seen in the .gif, Dark Samus won't move left or right, nor will she split in two. This tilt has two hits to it and can be used for juggling or even spiking with the first hit if Dark Samus is standing next to the ledge and edge-guards at the right time.
(At least this made its way into the result screen.)

Side Kick (Side+A)
Dark Samus' side tilt is a kick like Samus', except Dark Samus delivers a kick sideways relative to her. In doing so, she leans toward her opponent before returning to her original position. This allows for her to maintain a safe distance from her opponent.

Phazon Tentacles (Down+A)

Phazon Tentacles is an ability Dark Samus had in MP2:E, but it appeared as a clear, cylindrical barrier with Phazon energy in MP2:E . In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (MP3:C), this attack ended up appearing as seen in the .gif. This attack is a reflector/counter.

Aerial
Radioactive Explosion (A)
A burst of radioactive energy bursts from Dark Samus' body, knocking her opponent away from her. When Dark Samus performs this attack, if she has any momentum in the air, she will suddenly stop in place to release this energy, and then continue with the momentum she originally had. This attack is good at knocking her opponent's barrage of attacks, giving her time to breathe. Like some of Dark Samus' other attacks, this is a useful attack at KO'ing her opponent off the stage in a horizontal direction.

Arcing Kick (Up+A)
This attack is much like Zero Suit Samus' up aerial. Excellent combo starter and ladder combo option.

Helicopter Kick (Forward+A)
Dark Samus will perform a rotation of upward kicks, catching her opponent in consecutive hits. Helicopter Kick causes her opponent to fly nigh vertically, allowing a KO depending on the height of the ceiling or the percentage.

Back Kick (Back+A)
This is one of Dark Samus' effective methods to KO'ing her opponent due to the high knock-back. Because Dark Samus' leg is extended just like Samus' and Zero Suit Samus' back air, this gives Dark Samus a safe option, should she connect to her kick to her opponent's shield, rather than to her opponent.

Phazon Burst (Down+A)
Somewhat similar to Samus' down air, except when Dark Samus uses this attack, she'll use her left palm and a burst of Phazon energy will propel her upward while spiking her opponent with a meteor smash.

Smashes

Phazon Sphere (Up+A)
This attack may seem familiar to those who have seen the Dark Samus assist trophy, and that's probably because the attack seen from the assist trophy is based on this particular attack in MP3:C. Samus will position her arm similar to that of Samus' when she uses Cover Fire. Instead of releasing three spheres, however, Dark Samus will release four, each dealing 6% damage. The size of these spheres will be smaller than what the assist trophy uses, although the lock-on will be a little more accurate.

Plasma Beam (Forward+A)
A short-ranged smash attack that generates continuous flame damage upon contact. Because the plasma beam is known for bypassing stronger defenses, this attack is effective on shields.

Phrygisian Pillar (Down+A)
Unlike the numerous ice pillars that Dark Samus generates in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, she can only generate one at a time. It can be destroyed, but if this attack fails to come into contact with the ground, it will fall below, making it a useful edge-guarding attack against those who try to recover low. It has a spiking property. If used on stage, it will create a breakable wall.

Specials
Scatter Shot (B)

This special is called Scatter Shot because Dark Samus uses the "scattershot version of the Power Beam", according to the MP2:E scan. This attack fires three Phazon bullets uncharged and twenty-one when fully charged. Twenty-one is the amount of bullets actually fired by the Dark Samus assist trophy, so I wanted to maintain that. The variegated pattern of Scatter Shot makes it impossible to SDI out of, even though it's linear. Point-blank Scatter Shot will produce greater knock-back.

Kinetic Phazon Cannon (Up+B)

There are three things present in this .gif that can be applied to Kinetic Phazon Cannon in Super Smash Bros. Samus' beams and missiles are deflected when Dark Samus has that Phazon shield around her. The second is that nothing harms Dark Samus as a result. The third is that Dark Samus bounces off a wall, although if she landed on the ground, she'd have a lot of latency, even though she'd still have her shield present. There would be a brief moment where Samus could injure Dark Samus before she leaps away.

Based on these three things, the first property is that any projectile will be reflected. The second property I'd have added to this special is super armor. Once Dark Samus launches herself, the super armor won't be present anymore. The third property is that if Dark Samus hits the side of a stage, she'll bounce off of it like Ness and Lucas with their PK Thunder 2, or like Bayonetta's After Burner Kick. If Dark Samus hits the ground in a downward angle, there will be latency and she won't have the Phazon shield. However, if she launches directly toward the ground, she will generate a quake.

Dark Samus' animation works in two different ways. As seen in the .gif, if she's on the ground and uses Kinetic Phazon Cannon, she'll spring upward. During this time, anyone near her will take damage and actually be picked up along with her. When she begins to form the Phazon shield, the opponent will be pulled inward and receive damage. If Dark Samus performs this attack in the air, she won't spring upward, but will perform her attack in the position she's in. She can launch herself in any direction.

Super Missile (Side+B)

Phazon Missile (Side+B)

Dark Samus displays the ability to fire normal and super missiles in MP2:E. However, she also has another type of missile I dubbed "Phazon Missile". Although Dark Samus can do what Samus can do, I wasn't certain as to how she would be able to use three types of missiles, so I decided to make her side special fire Super Missile and strong side special fire Phazon Missile. Super Missile causes 10%, while Phazon Missile will produces 15% damage. Although Super Missile can kill, Phazon Missile cannot. Its purpose is to prevent the opponent from moving, allowing for Dark Samus to deal additional damage.

Down B - Hyper Ball
Although Samus is the one who acquires the ability called Hyper Ball in MP3:C, I figured I'd give it to Dark Samus. This attack generates an electrical discharge that has a paralyzing effect. This special can be used to slow Dark Samus' descent, but it's not as effective as Bomb in terms of recovery.

 

[ZagarTulip]

I always found it kinda strange that has a staff in his artwork... yet he only uses it in one move: the final smash. So I would probably change him to have a staff in more moves. I liked the idea of giving him 's moves like the Side B, Up B and Down B.


I don't really have any ideas for the other echoes

 

[MattVRox0525]

Dark Samus

Ground
Phazon Punch (A, A)
Behaves as a one-two punch with a bit of electrical effect.

Radioactive Rush
Dark Samus becomes invincible when using this attack. Capable of killing at high damage and useful combo set-up.

Aú sem Mão (Up+A)

This attack brings Dark Samus' left or right leg to an arc depending on the direction she's facing, following up with her other leg to bring a full swing against her opponent. Unlike the animation as seen in the .gif, Dark Samus won't move left or right, nor will she split in two. This tilt has two hits to it and can be used for juggling or even spiking with the first hit if Dark Samus is standing next to the ledge and edge-guards at the right time.
(At least this made its way into the result screen.)

Side Kick (Side+A)
Dark Samus' side tilt is a kick like Samus', except Dark Samus delivers a kick sideways relative to her. In doing so, she leans toward her opponent before returning to her original position. This allows for her to maintain a safe distance from her opponent.

Phazon Tentacles (Down+A)

Phazon Tentacles is an ability Dark Samus had in MP2:E, but it appeared as a clear, cylindrical barrier with Phazon energy in MP2:E . In Metroid Prime 3: Corruption (MP3:C), this attack ended up appearing as seen in the .gif. This attack is a reflector/counter.

Aerial
Radioactive Explosion (A)
A burst of radioactive energy bursts from Dark Samus' body, knocking her opponent away from her. When Dark Samus performs this attack, if she has any momentum in the air, she will suddenly stop in place to release this energy, and then continue with the momentum she originally had. This attack is good at knocking her opponent's barrage of attacks, giving her time to breathe. Like some of Dark Samus' other attacks, this is a useful attack at KO'ing her opponent off the stage in a horizontal direction.

Arcing Kick (Up+A)
This attack is much like Zero Suit Samus' up aerial. Excellent combo starter and ladder combo option.

Helicopter Kick (Forward+A)
Dark Samus will perform a rotation of upward kicks, catching her opponent in consecutive hits. Helicopter Kick causes her opponent to fly nigh vertically, allowing a KO depending on the height of the ceiling or the percentage.

Back Kick (Back+A)
This is one of Dark Samus' effective methods to KO'ing her opponent due to the high knock-back. Because Dark Samus' leg is extended just like Samus' and Zero Suit Samus' back air, this gives Dark Samus a safe option, should she connect to her kick to her opponent's shield, rather than to her opponent.

Phazon Burst (Down+A)
Somewhat similar to Samus' down air, except when Dark Samus uses this attack, she'll use her left palm and a burst of Phazon energy will propel her upward while spiking her opponent with a meteor smash.

Smashes

Phazon Sphere (Up+A)
This attack may seem familiar to those who have seen the Dark Samus assist trophy, and that's probably because the attack seen from the assist trophy is based on this particular attack in MP3:C. Samus will position her arm similar to that of Samus' when she uses Cover Fire. Instead of releasing three spheres, however, Dark Samus will release four, each dealing 6% damage. The size of these spheres will be smaller than what the assist trophy uses, although the lock-on will be a little more accurate.

Plasma Beam (Forward+A)
A short-ranged smash attack that generates continuous flame damage upon contact. Because the plasma beam is known for bypassing stronger defenses, this attack is effective on shields.

Phrygisian Pillar (Down+A)
Unlike the numerous ice pillars that Dark Samus generates in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, she can only generate one at a time. It can be destroyed, but if this attack fails to come into contact with the ground, it will fall below, making it a useful edge-guarding attack against those who try to recover low. It has a spiking property. If used on stage, it will create a breakable wall.

Specials
Scatter Shot (B)

This special is called Scatter Shot because Dark Samus uses the "scattershot version of the Power Beam", according to the MP2:E scan. This attack fires three Phazon bullets uncharged and twenty-one when fully charged. Twenty-one is the amount of bullets actually fired by the Dark Samus assist trophy, so I wanted to maintain that. The variegated pattern of Scatter Shot makes it impossible to SDI out of, even though it's linear. Point-blank Scatter Shot will produce greater knock-back.

Kinetic Phazon Cannon (Up+B)

There are three things present in this .gif that can be applied to Kinetic Phazon Cannon in Super Smash Bros. Samus' beams and missiles are deflected when Dark Samus has that Phazon shield around her. The second is that nothing harms Dark Samus as a result. The third is that Dark Samus bounces off a wall, although if she landed on the ground, she'd have a lot of latency, even though she'd still have her shield present. There would be a brief moment where Samus could injure Dark Samus before she leaps away.

Based on these three things, the first property is that any projectile will be reflected. The second property I'd have added to this special is super armor. Once Dark Samus launches herself, the super armor won't be present anymore. The third property is that if Dark Samus hits the side of a stage, she'll bounce off of it like Ness and Lucas with their PK Thunder 2, or like Bayonetta's After Burner Kick. If Dark Samus hits the ground in a downward angle, there will be latency and she won't have the Phazon shield. However, if she launches directly toward the ground, she will generate a quake.

Dark Samus' animation works in two different ways. As seen in the .gif, if she's on the ground and uses Kinetic Phazon Cannon, she'll spring upward. During this time, anyone near her will take damage and actually be picked up along with her. When she begins to form the Phazon shield, the opponent will be pulled inward and receive damage. If Dark Samus performs this attack in the air, she won't spring upward, but will perform her attack in the position she's in. She can launch herself in any direction.

Super Missile (Side+B)

Phazon Missile (Side+B)

Dark Samus displays the ability to fire normal and super missiles in MP2:E. However, she also has another type of missile I dubbed "Phazon Missile". Although Dark Samus can do what Samus can do, I wasn't certain as to how she would be able to use three types of missiles, so I decided to make her side special fire Super Missile and strong side special fire Phazon Missile. Super Missile causes 10%, while Phazon Missile will produces 15% damage. Although Super Missile can kill, Phazon Missile cannot. Its purpose is to prevent the opponent from moving, allowing for Dark Samus to deal additional damage.

Down B - Hyper Ball
Although Samus is the one who acquires the ability called Hyper Ball in MP3:C, I figured I'd give it to Dark Samus. This attack generates an electrical discharge that has a paralyzing effect. This special can be used to slow Dark Samus' descent, but it's not as effective as Bomb in terms of recovery.

How much effort did you put into this? And how long did it take to type?
I was not expecting a full moveset for but ok

 

[Crystanium]

How much effort did you put into this? And how long did it take to type?
I was not expecting a full moveset for but ok

I've had a copy of this for quite some time. I posted something similar in the Make Your Move thread. I believe it was MYM 18 or 19. Some people commented on how they felt some sort of similarity to Samus, but also praised the uniqueness and faithfulness to canon. It took a few hours to write up originally, not to mention making .gifs to match my view of how I think DS should be.

I still want to make some changes because I've yet to be satisfied with DS' down special. I originally had the idea of what is called Dark Echo, which is a copy of DS. It would leave after taking 30% and function on a level 9 CPU AI. Its moveset would be limited, but I keep thinking back to DS' recovery. What makes Samus' recovery good is both her z-air, Screw Attack, and bombs. Sure, Kinetic Phazon Cannon could be DS' best option, or I could give her a second mid-air jump to compensate for Bomb and z-air.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I would do nothing.
The time taken to make the echoes is solely justifiable because they are simple.
Giving them more nuance and detail comes at the expense of variety in aspects of the game with much more arguable merit to be given the time.

 

[Xelrog]

Simple number tweaks don't take any significant time away from other things.

Graphical changes or (most unrealistically) completely new moves would drastically cut into development time, but something as simple as Marth vs. Lucina is very simply done and there's no excuse for there not being at least minor statistical differences between the identical echoes.

 

[Gamer Cube]

I am not a good moveset maker, but just to add to the thread, I believe it is Roy's Hilter. Also, I don't know why Roy and Chrom are echos. They don't even have the same special moveset. They are honestly the most different of any echos besides maybe Ken and Ryu.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I am not a good moveset maker, but just to add to the thread, I believe it is Roy's Hilter. Also, I don't know why Roy and Chrom are echos. They don't even have the same special moveset. They are honestly the most different of any echos besides maybe Ken and Ryu.

Chrom still has the same physics as Roy, and although they aren't exact copies, a lot of his animations are edits of Roy's.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I am not a good moveset maker, but just to add to the thread, I believe it is Roy's Hilter. Also, I don't know why Roy and Chrom are echos. They don't even have the same special moveset. They are honestly the most different of any echos besides maybe Ken and Ryu.

So that Dixie can come in and be an echo.
#WhateverItTakes

 

[Perkilator]

Okay, let me take a stab:

(loosely based on Assist Trophy)
Jab: Bullet Spray
Down-Smash: Phazon Tentacles
Neutral-B: Phazon Shot; charges like Samus's Neutral-B, but sends out one small shot, two small shots, and then THREE small shots upon full charge.
Up-B: Same as Crystanium's.
Down-B: Split; Dark Samus splits herself into two to dodge attacks. The real DS is identified by the players market, and the fake one explodes upon taking enough damage.
Final Smash: Metroid Prime; basically the same as Mr. Game & Watch's Octopus, but with a small twist.

Some of her moves can spray Phazon onto opponents, which damages over time and can net in extra damage, kind of like ink.



Down-B: Stoopid Unikorn’s idea
Side-B: Awakening Aether; functions as it should, press B once and then press it again when a hit lands to heal yourself. Additional damage is healed when you get a KO.
Final Smash: Broken Heart; Chrom’s confession portrait appears and he says “You’re too good for me…”, and then stabs where your heart is as you’re sent flying across the screen. (Loosely based off of this, but without the you-know-what

Not really an Echo, but (loosely based off Kirby’s Doctor ability)

Neutral-B: Pill Bopper; Dr. Mario fires one capsule with a press, two with a short charge, and three with a long charge.
Down-B: Science Lab; Dr. Mario has three different bottles with each a different element. Red shoots a fire pillar above; blue surrounds Dr. Mario in a swirl of ice; and yellow tosses electric orbs around him.
Up-B: Doctor Punch; has three elemental effects. Fire hits repeatedly; ice freezes any enemies that fall when Dr. Mario leaves the ground; and thunder deals extreme upper knockback when Dr. Mario is already in the air.
Down-Air: Bandage Spin; It’s Mario Tornado, but with bandages that have a wider hit box.
Neutral-Air: Pharmacy; Dr. Mario summons three pills that fly in random directions downward.
Up-Air: Spray Medicine; Dr. Mario sprays a potion straight above him.
Dash: Clipboard Dash; this speaks for itself, just run up and smacks someone with a clipboard.
Final Smash: Dr. Miracle; Dr. Mario fires pills above him that grow as they come back down, instantly KO’ing fighters they come in contact with who are over 100%.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Not sure if it was suggested, but maybe either Simon or Richter could have the dagger as a special?

 

[LightKnight]

Unfortunately, I don't know a lot about the origin of these characters and the games they come from but I'll give my thoughts.
People have already said things I liked about so I'll continue with the others instead
I like the idea of Simon being a more tanky weapons based fighter almost like he is now while Richter uses most of his in a faster shorter ranged way while moving overall more like Joker. Kinda like someone was saying earlier, giving Simon a Dair just like his Fair and Uair.
For these two I kinda like how they already are but for the sake of the topic I'd change Dark-Pit mostly in order to have him make use of more single-hit moves which involve his staff so that we double-down on the 'power' theme we have for him as oppose to Pit's focus on combos. For example his Nair could be a single-hit staff twirl with a similar animation to Pit's Nair and his Fair would be like Pit's Fair from Brawl but single-hit and his Uair would be similar, exchanging multi-hits and horizontal range for a powerful vertical hit similar to that of Link's Uair or even Yoshi's quick Uair in Brawl/Smash4. The smash attacks could be given a similar treatment. I might even give Pit's recovery from Brawl over to Dark-Pit..
To start, I'd change up all of Peach's specials but I don't know her or the party games she's been apart of very well so I can't come up with too much sadly.. That said, I'd have her Down Special pull out a different vegetable (which is better for combos) and the unique items she could pull out would be different as well. Her Neutral Special could still be a counter of sorts but Daisy would only weakly push opponents away with her parasol as she releases it. Its main usage would be for reflecting back projectiles! Perhaps for Daisy's Side Special she could kick a soccer ball (similar to Wii-Fit lol)! For her recovery I wouldn't use the parasol but something else for better vertical recovery.
I'd also remove the floating effect and to compensate maybe increase her overall speed while additionally giving some of her moves more power like Bair.
Honestly, I don't think these characters need any other real changes, I feel like the hilt/tipper mechanics are enough to separate them and I'd rather just combine some of the existing FE characters..
Only thing I can think of is to maybe make Ken's projectile even faster to better differentiate him from Ryu which allows one of them a legit zoning tool. As a side note Ryu could probably use some of his former power back..

 

[Izanagi97]

Honestly, I don't think these characters need any other real changes, I feel like the hilt/tipper mechanics are enough to separate them and I'd rather just combine some of the existing FE characters..

I already gave my idea for this one which was to give Chrom some moves based on his Fire Emblem Warriors appearance (including the lightning effects) and have Lucina be a semi echo of Chrom (mainly by having her being faster but weaker)

 

[Guynamednelson]

Only thing I can think of is to maybe make Ken's projectile even faster to better differentiate him from Ryu which allows one of them a legit zoning tool

Ken is supposed to be worse at zoning than Ryu.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I have a couple of ideas that only do changes that retain the general movest while giving them tricks of their own. Basically, I aimed for semi-clones rather than fully unique characters. With that same, enough edits that I like might end up making an Echo feel more unique

Spoiler: Samuses

- Nair is Melee's.
- Back air now has Samus strike with the cannon arm and shooting an explosive blast from it, similar to Mii Gunner's.
- Down air is now a downward strike with the cannon arm. Similar to Mega Man, except there's no projectile.


- Slower air speed, slower falling speed and lower weight, making her more of a "floaty" character.
- Faster walk speed and slightly faster run speed.
- New side taunt that has her split from a Dark Echo for a moment before reuiniting.
- Zair now behaves like Smash 4 Samus/ZSS.

- It and the grab also look more like a tentacle.​

- Some grounded normals involve her floating around, making them seem like they're aerials.

- Jab has a slightly different animation that keeps her hovering, and both hits link into each other.​

- Forward tilt is similar to back air, but hits forward.​

- Up tilt is a one-kick version of the Aú sem Mão idea Crystanium posted.​

- Down tilt remains the same.​

- Two of her smashes are based on her attacks as an Assist Trophy.

- Up smash only has three blasts, but are much bigger. Loosely inspired from the attack where she shoots three giant projectiles.​

- Down smash has her shove her cannon arm to the ground, tentacles of Phazon to sprout around her.​

- Forward smash remains unchanged.​

- Forward and back throws now involve the usage of a Dark Echo, both cases involving the original Dark Samus uppercuting them before the Dark Echo sends them flying at the chosen direction with a blast similar to a Charge Shot (although obviously not as powerful as one).
- Keeps all of her aerials since they're more unique now except for up air, which is both legs of the Aú sem Mão idea from the up tilt.

- The reason why Samus's aerials are the ones that got the changed is because the ones in the current moveset fit Dark Samus's wraith-like look.​

- Forward air remains unchanged and down air gets a visual indicator of the sweetspot as it glows.​

- Neutral special is now Phazon Scatter Shot, which is based on one of her attacks as a Smash 4 Assist Trophy where she rapid fires bullets.

- Can be compared to Inkling's Splattershot in terms of firing rate.​

- Kirby's Copy Ability is changed accordingly.​

- Side special is now Phazon Missile.

- Always fires something akin to Samus's Super Missile, regardless of how quickly you flick the control stick.​

- Doesn't deal any knockback, instead having a paralysis effect.​

- Up special is now Phazon Screw Attack, which is based on the Apex Screw Attack custom move from Smash 4.

- A two-hit variant of Screw Attack that connects reliably, with the second hit being a strong KO option.​

- Has much less range in terms of recovery, but also super armor on startup.​

- Down special is now Phazon Virus.

- A unique counterattack that inflicts debuffs in speed, power and defense as well as gradual damage.​

- Deals set knockback, just like Incineroar's Revenge.​

- Pose when performing it is similar to her former side taunt.​

- Moves that involve blue explosion effects or anything similar now inflict Phazon, a status effect similar to Joker's Eiha, dealing damage over time.

- As a result, those moves deal less damage on hit, and are less likely to combo to not abuse the Phazon effect.​

- Moves involved: Down tilt, up throw, forward throw, back throw, all smashes, forward air, all specials, Final Smash.​

- The effects of this gimmick do not stack for balancing purposes.​

- Kirby also uses the Phazon gimmick for the copied neutral special.​

Spoiler: Princesses

- Gets the old down tilt where she slaps rather than do a sweep kick.


- Greater air speed, falling speed and a third jump, the latter based on her ability in Super Mario Run.
- Lower jump height and loses the float to prevent the above from being overpowered.
- Gets Peach's Melee up tilt and pre-4 up air.
- Jab has her slap only once rather than twice. It's also stronger than either of Peach's slaps. Based on a cutscene from Mario Party 3.
- Grab, pummel and throws don't have a Toad appearing, instead all of them being the ones Peach had in Smash 4.
- Forward smash is the same concept, but uses different objects, all of which have her wield them with two hands rather than one.

- Normal variant has her use a baseball bat, which has a reflecting hitbox on the tip like Ness and Lucas's forward smashes.​

- The upward variant her use a golf club. Due to her using two hands to swing it, it works like a proper golf swing would, knocking diagonally upwards.​

- The downward variant has her use a hockey stick. Like the normal variant, it has a reflective tipper, but is more rewarding since the tipper is strictly near the ground, making it extremely situational.​

- Neutral special is now Super Ball, based on a power up from Super Mario Land.

- Works similarly to Mii Brawler's Shot Put in that she throws a metallic ball.​

- Compared to Shot Put, the ball is smaller, weaker, goes farther and able to bounce on the ground multiple times.​

- Kirby's Copy Ability is changed accordingly.​

- Up special is now a single hit while rising rather than a multi-hit.

- This gives the move more KO potential, but deals less damage overall.​

- Down special how has her pull carrots, based on a Super Mario Land 2 power up, and the knockback values are reverted to those before 3.0.0.
- Final Smash is now Serve's Up!, which has her serve a ball like if it was a tennis match. Works similarly to Link's Final Smash and its sound effect when hitting is the same as when breaking a racket in Mario Tennis Aces.

Spoiler: Marths

- No changes.


- Increased run speed and air speed.
- Reduced weight, traction and fall speed.
- Idle stance, crouch, sidestep and jump animations reverted back to Smash 4's.
- Instead of being able to do one of a handful of idle animations when not doing anything for some time, Lucina will only have a single one based on her Awakening idle pose, which will last for a long time if undisturbed. Basically, the same kind of thing Wolf had in Brawl.
- Jab is now a slash into stab. Taken from basic attack animations in Awakening.
- Forward tilt animation and hitboxes now closely resemble Marth's forward smash.
- Up tilt now an overhead arcing slash.
- Down tilt is now a swipe rather than a poke.
- Forward smash is now similar in animation to the Critical Hit Final Smash, which itself is similar to her Critical Hit animation in Awakening.
- Up smash now has her do a slight hop before slashing above her. Based on her up smash in the Legacy XP mod for Brawl.
- Down smash is now a jumping strike with the sword, based on the Critical Hit animation she has in Fates as an amiibo unit. Only hits in front of her.
- Dash attack is now a dashing stab. Taken from one of her Awakening attack animations.
- Neutral air now similar to the spinning Chrom does during his up special.
- Forward air is a triple stab similar to Mii Swordfighter's.
- Back air has her swing the sword with a little more effort and range, making it similar to Toon Link's. It also no longer reverses her direction.
- Forward throw animation is back to Smash 4's.
- Neutral special is now Dashing Assault, one of her customs from Smash 4.

- Deals significantly less shield damage compared to Shield Breaker, but deals more knockback.​

- Has more range due to her dashing while performing it, which can be further increased by charging it.​

- Due to the above, it is no longer tiltable, but is now reversible.​

- Kirby's Copy Ability is changed accordingly.​

- Side Special is now Astra, which works similarly to Cloud's Cross Slash (without the Limit Break variant).
- Up special is now Galeforce.

- Works like a version of Dolphin Slash that has significantly less range, damage and knockback.​

- Does not cause freefall upon the first use, allowing it to be used a second time, similarly to Bayonetta's Witch Twist.​

- The nerfs in damage and knockback cause the move to no longer be able to KO until extremely high percents.​

- Down special is now Pavise.

- Grants her the same pose as Counter, but instead of being a counterattack, grants her one-hit super armor.​

- Upon pressing attack or special, manually strikes. If inputted as Lucina is hit, the strike's strength is slightly stronger to that of a countered move.​

- Gets Awakening Aether as her Final Smash.
- Her entire moveset now has a timing-based gimmick, much like how her up tilt currently works. At the right timing, attacks deal more damage but less knockback, increasing her damage output and combo potential at the cost of KO potential.

Spoiler: Roys

- Dashing animation is now the same as the official website's showcase video rather than Smash 4's.
- Crouch animation is back to Smash 4's.
- Forward throw animation is back to Smash 4's.
- Forward tilt is now a stabbing motion based on his attack animation from Binding Blade. Tiltable.
- His sheath is now constantly visible during a match because that bugs me so much.


- Is now noticeably slower than Roy in terms of walk speed, run speed and air speed.
- In return, his weight is increased, improving his survivability.
- Jab is now a slash into stab. Taken from basic attack animations in Awakening.
- Up tilt is now based on Marth's rather than Roy's.
- Down tilt is now a swipe rather than a poke.
- Dash attack now has him leap before doing a downward sword strike. Based on the Critical Hit he gets in Fates. Similar in concept to Link's dash attack.
- Forward smash is now an upward swing of the sword. Based on his Critical Hit from Awakening.
- Up smash is now a single-hit move rather than a multi-hit.
- Neutral air now has him spin around with his sword once.
- Up air is now Mii Swordfigher's.
- Back air has him swing the sword with a little more effort and range, making it similar to Toon Link's. It also no longer reverses his direction.
- Neutral special is now Shield Breaker.

- Works identically to Melee Marth's version of the move, right down to the animations.​

- As such, it deals less damage and knockback, but more shield damage and no longer deals recoil damage.​

- Kirby's Copy Ability is changed accordingly.​

- Side special is now Sol.

- Similarly to Ike's Quick Draw, Chrom will be able to dash forward and strike upon reaching a foe or simply at the end of the dash.​

- Compared to Quick Draw, it deals much less damage, has less knockback and has less range, but reaches full charge a bit faster.​

- Uniquely, it allows Chrom to heal half the damage that he deals.​

- Down special is now Pavise.

- Grants him the same pose as Counter, but instead of being a counterattack, grants him one-hit super armor.​

- Upon pressing attack or special, manually strikes. If inputted as Chrom is hit, the strike's strength is slightly stronger to that of a countered move.​

Spoiler: Pits

- No changes.


- All of his expression that used to be different from Pit's in Smash 4, such as when Screen KO'd, are now reverted back to Smash 4's.
- Run speed, walk speed and air speed are slightly increased due to his personality making him a little more aggressive in combat.
- Falling speed is also increased, making him more susceptible to combos.
- No longer has a rapid jab.
- Jab and all tilts now involve kicks.

- Final hit of jab is a roundhouse kick, similar to the one he did in Uprising's fifth chapter.​

- Forward tilt is a Sparta Kick.​

- Up tilt is unchanged.​

- Down tilt is a sliding kick.​

- Running animation now has him use his wings to hover, which will glow blue to represent when he could fly on his own using Pandora.
- Dash attack is based on his dashing attack from Uprising's sixth chapter.
- All smashes involve usage of the Pandora Claws.

- Forward smash's animation is slash of one of the Claws in front of him. Inputting the attack button a second time makes him use the other Claw.​

- Up smash is a swipe with a single Claw similar to Bowser's up tilt, except he can do a second one with the other Claw by doing a second input.​

- Down smash has him swipe his Claws downward like many down smashes, except he does both sides at once rather than one at a time.​

- All aerials get changed to involve kicks.

- Neutral air has him do three kicks in quick succession, making it a middle ground between Falcon/Ganon 2 and Snake's 4.​

- Forward air has him perform a front flip with his leg extended. Has a meteor sweetspot at the heel.​

- Back air has him perform a dropkick backwards.​

- Up air is a flipping kick. Both legs have hitboxes, making it a two-hit move.​

- Down air is a divekick, similar to the one he did in Uprising's ninth chapter.​

- Up special is now Brawl Pit's but more mobile, with the wings glowing blue just like his running animation. The special's name remains Power of Flight.
- Down special is now Gemini Orbitars.

- Grants armor on startup but instead of casting two reflectors, it will cause two powerful blasts on each side of Dark Pit.​

- Noticeably laggier than Guardian Orbitars and unlike them, cannot be held to make them last longer.​

Spoiler: Shotoclones

- The spinning hook kick is now the held jab variant that occurs when an opponent is close to him rather than just doing the held up tilt.
- The held jab variant that doesn't have an opponent close to him is now the Solar Plexus Strike, one of his unique attacks in Street Fighter II onwards.


- Idle stance is now based on Street Fighter V's, which has him move a bit more rather than stand still.
- There is now a V-Gauge visible on the HUD near his artwork, which fills as he deals or receives damage. No way to manually charge it.
- Inazuma Kick is now the move that occurs when the held jab has an opponent close to him rather than just doing the held up tilt.
- Held jab when an opponent isn't close is now the Lion Breaker, one of his unique attacks in Street Fighter V. As it consists of two separate kicks, it requires two separate inputs to perform the full move.
- Down special is now Ryusenkyaku / Heat Rush, the variant used depending on how the V-Gauge is.

- When the V-Gauge isn't full, Ryusenkyaku is used, a jumping wheel kick that originates from Capcom vs SNK and returned as a second V-Skill in SFV.​

- Has a command input variant performed by doing a reverse Shoryuken motion (back, down, down-back, attack), which deals more damage and has slightly better frame data.​

- It's chargeable by holding the button, giving it more damage and less endlag. Both are safe on hit, but only the charged one is safe on block.​

- The jump is high enough to dodge all but anti-air attacks when timed right.​

- Builds V-Gauge even if blocked, but not on whiffs.​

- Lacks the one-hit armor and crumpling effect of Focus Attack.​

- When the V-Gauge is full, Heat Rush is activated instead, which caused a small blast of fire around him as well as giving him the following buffs for about 20 seconds;​

- Increased walking, running, falling and air speed.​

- All moves involving kicks and up smash have the flame effect and deal more damage.​

- All smashes deal more knockback.​

- All variants of the Hadoken are replaced by the Shakunetsu Hadoken (aka Ryu's orange fireball).​

- All variants of the Tatsumaki Senpukyaku deals one more additional hit.​

- All variants of the Shoryuken have his fist covered in flames rather than being only on held variants.​

- Down special remains Ryusenkyaku after activation and functions the same way. However, you can no longer build the V-Gauge with it.​

- Using any enhanced move but Ryusenkyaku costs a part of the V-Gauge (about 1 second).​

Spoiler: Belmonts

- No longer has a rapid jab.
- Down tilt is now a crouched version of his forward tilt.
- Now has a tether grab, a loose creative liberty on his ability to grapple rings in Super Castlevania IV.

- This also gives him a zair and yet another tether recovery.​

- Dash attack is a shoulder charge because he seems strong enough to do one of those. Hard-hitting with KO potential.
- Neutral air is similar to ZSS's.
- Down air is a downward version of his up air. The tip of the whip is the meteor sweetspot.

- Unlike his axe, this move won't go through stages, preventing it from being too overpowered.​

- Up special is now Tether Whip.

- Works similarly to Ivysaur's Vine Whip, but with a range that's in the middle of that move and Joker's Grappling Hook.​

- This actually gives him a better recovery, but the move itself lacks the proper knockback to make it qualify as a KO option.​

- Run speed, walk speed, air speed, falling speed and jump height are increased since he's supposed to be a more agile Belmont.
- His weight and traction are decreased.
- Third hit of non-rapid jab is a roundhouse kick.
- Up tilt is an uppercut. Less range, but stronger in damage and knockback.
- Up smash has the whip bend more like it does in Simon's up tilt, greatly reducing vertical range, but increasing horizontal range.
- Forward smash is based on Brawl ZSS's, giving it more vertical range, but drastically less horizontal range.
- Down smash has less range.
- Forward and back aerial have more vertical whip swings, drastically reducing horizontal range. They also lose the ability to tether.
- Up aerial is a flip kick, greatly reducing vertical range and removing its tethering ability in exchange of a good juggling tool.
- Neutral special's axe now looks like the one in Symphony of the Night.

- It's also weaker in both damage and knockback to prevent it from being too good thanks to his better mobility.​

- Unlike other revised neutral specials, Kirby's Copy Ability remains unchanged since he himself did not get mobility changes.​

- Side special now Dagger.

- Works similarly to Mega Man's Metal Blade, except you can only tilt it diagonally forward like any tilt attack.​

- Just like Metal Blade, it will stick to any surface it touches, allowing it to be picked up by anyone. This opens up opportunities for Z-drop combos.​

- Unlike Cross, it will not switch direction when reaching its maximum range, removing one of Richter's most useful tools.​

- To make up for the lack of aerials that tether, up special goes higher.
- Down special's flame pillar now travels forward, making it easier to escape even without any DI.

- Due to how much easier it is to escape it, it also deals more damage.​

- The sweetspots at the whip's tip are all weaker in damage and knockback. Sourspots are unchanged.
- His moveset in general gets an overhaul in frame data, with it being overall a bit faster to make up for the reduced range.

If anyone has any good ideas to add, I'm open to suggestions.

Spoiler: Edit log

EDIT 1: Messed up the held jab variants for Ryu. They're swapped over now. Also re-worded an effect of Ken's new down special.
EDIT 2: Turns out I messed up the held jabs for Ken too...
EDIT 3: Changed Simon's dash attack.
EDIT 4: Decided to be more specific than "increased/lowered mobility" in the cases where it applied.
EDIT 5: Massive changes on Lucina. At this point, I don't think she even qualifies as "semi"-clone... Slight changes on Chrom too.
EDIT 6: Richter gets a few new changes that are more global to the moveset.
EDIT 7: New side special for Chrom. Also, mentions of Kirby's Copy Ability when applicable.
EDIT 8: Ken gets a new down special.

 

[LightKnight]

I have a couple of ideas that only do changes that retain the general movest while giving them tricks of their own. Basically, I aimed for semi-clones rather than fully unique characters.
If anyone has any good ideas to add, I'm open to suggestions.

I'd be more than happy with the overall changes you've suggested for all the characters! I'm also on board with the idea of furthering Dark-Pit as a rushdown character as thats my playstyle.

 

[MattVRox0525]

Well, after reading the latest posts on this thread, I notice that some people say that the echoes are fine the way they are. This thread is not intended to crap on the echoes and I’m, in no way, saying that any of these changes should be made. The initial purpose was to see people’s ideas of how they would change the echoes if they had the ability to do so and is merely fantasy, rather than the aforementioned.

I've had a copy of this for quite some time. I posted something similar in the Make Your Move thread. I believe it was MYM 18 or 19. Some people commented on how they felt some sort of similarity to Samus, but also praised the uniqueness and faithfulness to canon. It took a few hours to write up originally, not to mention making .gifs to match my view of how I think DS should be.

I still want to make some changes because I've yet to be satisfied with DS' down special. I originally had the idea of what is called Dark Echo, which is a copy of DS. It would leave after taking 30% and function on a level 9 CPU AI. Its moveset would be limited, but I keep thinking back to DS' recovery. What makes Samus' recovery good is both her z-air, Screw Attack, and bombs. Sure, Kinetic Phazon Cannon could be DS' best option, or I could give her a second mid-air jump to compensate for Bomb and z-air.

Hey, that’s pretty neat
Honestly, I would personally prefer you give Dark Samus multiple aerial jumps just to further differentiate her from Samus, but it’s your moveset so I can’t decide for you. Well, unless you want me to...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well, after reading the latest posts on this thread, I notice that some people say that the echoes are fine the way they are.

Most of them are, honestly.

I wrote some changes to get my creative muscles going, but I also personally think Lucina, Chrom and Ken are fine and don't need anything.

I also think Dark Samus and Dark Pit have enough differences, even if not at notable as the three above, to make choosing between them and their original an actual decision worth considering.

Richter gets a pass because the moveset for him and Simon actually incorporates techniques of both Belmonts, so it's just as much of a Richter moveset as a Simon one. Would've still liked some more creativity and uniqueness, but it still fits the character, so it's fine in the grand scheme of thngs.

The only one I have beef with is Daisy, especially after they removed the one difference she had with Peach.

 

[MarioMeteor]

In the Castlevania games where he’s playable, Richter is often the spryest and most agile character, so the fact that he’s an echo of slow and bulky Simon is pretty inaccurate. I wouldn’t change much about his normal moveset, only his attributes and specials.

Spoiler

Run speed, walk speed, and air speed are all increased while his weight and traction are decreased. He now boasts a slightly above average dashing speed and an average air speed while being a middleweight with low traction. Richter can also jump higher now.

Dash attack is now a single-hitting shoulder charge that can KO opponents similar to Samus.

Grounded attacks and throws are generally weaker than Simon’s while air attacks and specials are stronger.

Forward air and back air can no longer tether.

Axe - Richter throws the axes faster than Simon, but in return they are weaker, KOing later.

Cross - Richter’s Crosses will not linger as long on the screen before returning to him, but he can throw a second one immediately after the first at the cost of neither of them returning.

Holy Water - When the bottle hits the ground, it will explode in a wave of flames that slowly moves along the ground, dragging the opponent with it and dealing more damage than Simon’s Holy Water. This makes it better for controlling space and covering options, but follow-ups will have to be quicker.

Uppercut - Functionally the same as Simon’s only with more horizontal and vertical coverage. I would also have Simon’s deal more knockback to further differentiate the two.

Simon would remain the midrange terror that he is while also retaining his tank-like attributes. Richter, meanwhile, would be much more agile, using his new mobility to zip out of the opponent’s attack range while retaliating with his quicker projectiles.

 

[Crystanium]

Hey, that’s pretty neat
Honestly, I would personally prefer you give Dark Samus multiple aerial jumps just to further differentiate her from Samus, but it’s your moveset so I can’t decide for you. Well, unless you want me to...

I might do that, actually. I would probably have to change up her combo set-ups, though. Balance is something pro players want. Just imagine being able to do a ladder combo off of a single combo starter. DS would be kind of powerful.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

In the Castlevania games where he’s playable, Richter is often the spryest and most agile character, so the fact that he’s an echo of slow and bulky Simon is pretty inaccurate. I wouldn’t change much about his normal moveset, only his attributes and specials.

Spoiler

Run speed, walk speed, and air speed are all increased while his weight and traction are decreased. He now boasts a slightly above average dashing speed and an average air speed while being a middleweight with low traction. Richter can also jump higher now.

Dash attack is now a single-hitting shoulder charge that can KO opponents similar to Samus.

Grounded attacks and throws are generally weaker than Simon’s while air attacks and specials are stronger.

Forward air and back air can no longer tether.

Axe - Richter throws the axes faster than Simon, but in return they are weaker, KOing later.

Cross - Richter’s Crosses will not linger as long on the screen before returning to him, but he can throw a second one immediately after the first at the cost of neither of them returning.

Holy Water - When the bottle hits the ground, it will explode in a wave of flames that slowly moves along the ground, dragging the opponent with it and dealing more damage than Simon’s Holy Water. This makes it better for controlling space and covering options, but follow-ups will have to be quicker.

Uppercut - Functionally the same as Simon’s only with more horizontal and vertical coverage. I would also have Simon’s deal more knockback to further differentiate the two.

Simon would remain the midrange terror that he is while also retaining his tank-like attributes. Richter, meanwhile, would be much more agile, using his new mobility to zip out of the opponent’s attack range while retaliating with his quicker projectiles.

I think Simon would be the one with the shoulder charge because it fits the hard-hitting style he has.

Plus, the current dash attack is a Richter thing.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I think Simon would be the one with the shoulder charge because it fits the hard-hitting style he has.

Plus, the current dash attack is a Richter thing.

I was thinking that, but the move that dash attack is based off of (Blade Dash from Symphony of the Night - the one where he goes “You fool!” and then charges at you -) only hits once. When you fight Richter, he can actually launch you across the room with it, so that’s what I was going for.

 

[SmashChu]

Easy, just give them the custom moves from Smash 4. This can be done with everyone except Richter.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Easy, just give them the custom moves from Smash 4. This can be done with everyone except Richter.

And also Ryu.

But you'd also need to balance those moves either way, so...

 

[Arthur97]

For Lucina: Some are taken from her actual abilities, some are made up.
Idle Pose: Her actual idle pose. It's terrible she actually doesn't have it.
Jab: A slash into stab taken from basic attack animations in Awakening.
F-Smash: Her critical hit from Awakening. A jumping slash with a starting hit that leads into the main hit. Rather laggy, but it hits very hard.
D-Smash: Spinning slash like Shulk's but much faster and only one rotation.
F-Tilt: A quick stab. Fast with good horizontal range, but poor vertical range.
D-Tilt: A crouching slash to compliment an altered crouch animation to accommodate the idle pose.
Dash Attack: Dashing stab taken from one of her Awakening attack animations.
F-Air: Triple stab ala Ridley and Swordfighter, but you can press the button again for a finishing hit like Link's F-Smash.
D-Air: Stall then fall that has her do an animation akin to the downward swing of Aether. I think it would be the only move of that type to not have the hitbox directly under her.
U-Air: Upward stab. Good power, but relatively slow compared to most of her moves.
B-Air: Similar to existing one, but doesn't turn around and hits higher with a more enthusiastic swing.
N-Air: Single rotation spin.
Throws:
F-Throw: Overhead slash with collateral hitbox. Taken from the future flashback scene (seriously, so many swords that just aren't used in throws).
D-Throw: Hits opponent with sword hilt.
Specials:
Neutral: Luna
Functions similarly to shield breaker. With no charge, has the same animation. However, if charged, it travels further and after about half charge changes to a slash (always activates unlike Quick Draw). The big difference is that it completely ignores shields once the second animation activates and does more damage and knockback to shielding opponents. Granted, it seems unlikely you'll land it on shielding opponents much, but it also provides another recovery option.
Side: Thogn
Fires an arrow. If used in air, shoots downward at about a 45 degree angle.
Up: I...don't really have a name for this one.
Starts like Soaring Slash, but it comes down at an angle.
And give her Chrom's final smash with the appropriate animation changes.


For a minor thing, I would give Chrom Sol which heals half the damage dealt when landed, but more more importantly, the animation involves a dash forward.

 

[Astroking112]

• Give him his Ore Club for his Forward Smash. As opposed to Pit's multiple strikes, this will deliver a single slower but more powerful hit. Ideally, this would also apply to his other Smash attacks as well.
• Replace his Down Special with a Counter using a Samurai Blade from Uprising. This mirrors Pit's Reflector with the Guardian Orbitars, but makes them each feel more distinct, along with getting another weapon from Uprising into the game.
• Give him Wings of Icarus from Brawl as his recovery. This would be slower than Pit's Power of Flight, but more maneuverable if it doesn't get interrupted. It also represents how he didn't need Palutena to fly in Uprising.

• Give her a unique idle stance that matches her style in Awakening. She simply doesn't feel like Lucina most of the time, and some better animations would go a long way towards helping that.
• Return the differences between her and Marth that were cut in Ultimate.
• Replace her Final Smash with a copy of Chrom's, to better represent their ties to each other.

I think that are acceptable as they are. I wouldn't mind seeing Chrom's Side Special get replaced with a charging dash attack like his skills in Awakening (in which case, I'd like to see the same change for Lucina), but he at least feels distinct from Roy already.
I'm not familiar enough with to have a good idea of how to change them with less effort than making a full new moveset.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Crazy idea.

Remember how Wolf had this alternate stance if you didn't do anything for long enough?

Why not have Lucina have something like that? That way, you don't need to change literally every grounded animation due to the different starting point, but you still get the cheeky reference of using her actual idle pose from Awakening.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Remember how Wolf had this alternate stance if you didn't do anything for long enough?

It wasn’t really an alternate stance, it was a short little animation that Wolf did every few seconds that before going back into his idle (it’s actually in this game, too; you can see it if you’re holding a small item with Wolf). I get what you mean, though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It wasn’t really an alternate stance, it was a short little animation that Wolf did every few seconds that before going back into his idle (it’s actually in this game, too; you can see it if you’re holding a small item with Wolf). I get what you mean, though.

Never did it long enough for me to see it actually ended lol

 

[Arthur97]

I don't have as much for Chrom, but I do at least have some ideas for specials.

Neutral: Sol

Charges up a dash that has an upward swing upon connection. Heals half the damage dealt.

SIde: Somersault Swing

Charges up like the Swordfighter attack and spins while flinging himself forward. Alternatively, he could have a javelin toss.

Also, for Lucina's counter, give her something like the Lai Counter from 4.