Decisive Games NewD3 Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[Swiss]

^ so how is it a slip?

 

[fontisian]

Gorf do you disagree with anything in Fonti's case? Does Swiss have any clear Town/Scum tells you look for?

In Werewolves he was active and looked really meddling, and struck me as someone who enjoys playing the evil side of the game.

Here he's kinda just pardoned me and somi, and thinks Maven is a PR. And doesn't look that meddling. He's reacting to Fonti weirdly tho

So it's B2

Unvote

Or B1.

Maven's claim, if true, means we are in one of these two worlds:

• B1: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Tracker, Town Friendly Neighbor, 5x Town Vanilla
• B2: Mafia Goon, Mafia Rolecop vs. Town Jailkeeper, Town Friendly Neighbor, 5x Town Vanilla

If you are a role who knows it is not one of these two worlds (Mason, Cop or Doctor), consider claiming, either Today or Tomorrow.

If Maven is a wolf, I think the odds of Swiss being a wolf with him are high.

Here's the incident in question. This is also a reminder that Eido was on Maven when that became a counter to somi. I should look at that.

Notice that Eido pops in with the B1 or B2 immediately, whereas I took the time to copy paste it from the first post (because I had paid absolutely no attention to setup at that point outside of knowing it was a ms matrix thing).

He's also saying Swiss looks very different from his scumgame. Hmmmmmmmm.

 

[fontisian]

^ But to a scum B1 and B2 have the same scum Set up

^so how is it a slip?

Sorry, I don't really understand what you're asking.

 

[fontisian]

Hm, I feel like there's little interest in Maven. The room feels happier going for Somi over him. Having a good think.

I can be around til like 2-3am (GMT) tonight.

Tragic.

 

[Swiss]

Let’s say Eido is a rolecop

he still couldn’t tell if it’s b1 or b2

because he doesn’t know

so it’s more likely he’s just a bit silly than that being a scum tell - because he can’t be acting with insideknowledge

 

[fontisian]

I'm gonna go to bed sometime and wake up in roughly 8,5 hours at which point I'll have a little time to check in.

Unexpected scum read on Swiss is unexpected, so I'm eagerly awaiting your case.

I agree with Fonti, you can't do any scumhunting as scum if you know the entire setup. Multi-ball is way different and I think it's a lot easier for newbie scum in this regard.

"Unexpected scumread on Swiss that might save me is unexpected. Please save me!"

I imagine Eido went for Maven over Swiss before Eod and the claim because Maven was an easier yeet, no non-Somi person was really biting on Swiss until Sabrar voted, and it just generally feels kind of awkward to be on a wagon with your partner.

Oh, the last paragraph here is Somi trying to back up my defense of Eido, that's so random.

 

[fontisian]

Let’s say Eido is a rolecop

he still couldn’t tell if it’s b1 or b2

because he doesn’t know

so it’s more likely he’s just a bit silly than that being a scum tell - because he can’t be acting with insideknowledge

Oh yeah, I'm not arguing about that. I think he responded too quickly, and because he was partially incorrect and then immediately corrected himself, it meant he had thought about the setup previously, but hadn't looked at it just after Maven claimed, which is very weird thing for town to do but makes sense as a thing mafia would do. Again, I don't expect this point to convince you. I think the points that he voted you to save Somi while townreading you and begging people to trust me, and that it only happened after Sabrar put down a vote, are much, much stonger.

 

[Wam]

Font

I'm not going to go quite as far as saying your lying but how do the two statements below align?

Hey Wam, what did Sabrar and Gorf have in common?

Oh, the nks weren't a factor, I thought it was Eido after I saw the Somi flip.

 

[Swiss]

Fair.

Eido why vote me at t minus -1 minute when Somi was scummierin your eyes?

 

[Swiss]

Also furious because I had finally my boy gorf as locktown

 

[fontisian]

Font

I'm not going to go quite as far as saying your lying but how do the two statements below align?

They weren't a factor in me thinking Eido is mafia when I first thought that, because I decided I was going to vote Eido first thing if I lived approximately 10 minutes after the end of Day 1. (This was also barring the game just ending because Maven wasn't joking about him being scum, and he was just conceding after Somi went down, which I considered unlikely but possible.)

I made the point to you because it was something I was thinking about at the time you voted me, and because I think it's compelling.

 

[fontisian]

Also furious because I had finally my boy gorf as locktown

Rip you, could have jumped on my meta read like 5 days ago.

 

[fontisian]

Hmm.

I will not yeet: Gorf, Fonti
I would not like to yeet: Sabrar, LaserGuy, Swiss
I would consider yeeting: Wam
I would like to yeet: Bessie, Maven, Somi

Huh, what interesting reads. I wonder what drastic change led to Eido voting Swiss?

On a more serious note, it's not a coincidence that Somi is in the "would like to yeet" tier with two other people. Eido doesn't feel comfortable putting Somi higher when so many people are already talking about killing him, because what if that makes Eido look bad later, but he also wants to put more people in the pool so he has an excuse to not vote for Somi later on.

 

[fontisian]

Sure enough, these two posts are his follow-up:

Yeah see here for Maven:

Decisive Games NewD3 Mafia (GAME OVER!)

@fontisian Yeh, the point you raised about the questions is why I took timeout to reread the game. When you’re faced with lots of questions, it becomes difficult to split your time doing more useful things. If I answer them all, I need extra time to scum hunt, and sometimes that extra time just...

smashboards.com

He was way more abrupt in Apex, spelling everyone's names wrong and all that, all round in your face attitude. I get sneakier vibes here.

And yes Somi is purely lack of content/lurking. Content feels non-committal. Not a lot to draw from.

Vote: Maven

LaserGuy You mentioned the possibility of Bessie obfuscating her play. Does she have a hard time playing Scum generally that she would need to do this to fool people? Her gameplay feels tricky to follow, I'm trying to work out why that is, and whether it's all a lack of understanding from my end. The xkcd'ers don't seem to be all that wary of her (except somi, and they haven't pushed her at all).

The Maven and Bessie reads are both scumreads. Eido calls them slimy or tricky. But the Somi read is a neutral, not enough here, read. It's weird then that these reads would be all lumped together in the "want to yeet" tier, when Eido's language indicates he wants to kill Maven or Bessie more. But it makes sense from a scum!Eido pov because he's hoping his teammate will come back and be active.

 

[fontisian]

I will not yeet: Sabrar, Fontisian
I would not like to yeet: LaserGuy, bessie
I'm ambivalent about yeeting: wam, Eido, Maven,
I would consider yeeting:
I would like to yeet: Gorf, Swiss

Vote: Swiss


In my recollection you've always been the person to give new players advice in thread, especially if they were struggling and I don't see much of that now. Instead, Eido finds himself under the scrutiny of a bessie tunnel in addition to all the other eyes already on him.
And yeah, I extrapolated from the numbers you provided (and accurately it seems), because sans analysis, they were the best indication of your opinion available.

I'm scumreading Gorf and Swiss for focusing so much of their attention on one person, not for scumreading one of my townreads (although admittedly those reads hinge Eido being town). In general, my reads on D1 are decidedly not consistent insofar as I don't care much if my scumreads all scumread each other, because I don't expect most of it to be right. I just try to evaluate everyone individually and then sort them into a town-mafia gradient, because my reads aren't enough to clear anyone by association.

Note, also, as Somi comes under pressure, Eido drops lower in his reads. The instinct to distance is strong.

 

[LaserGuy]

Some notes on somi/fonti up to end of page 10. My comments are in blue:

Spoiler

Also the team is Somi/Bessie and Somi made a shroop, you heard it here first, folks.

fonti throws somi into a scumteam with bessie based on a 'shroop'. This is never really followed up.

I'm not attacking or defending Somi, who has a high chance of ending up as the yeet Today if Eido recovers because I want to see what he'll do. I'm no defending Maven because my read on him is going to depend on what /he chooses to do/ when he comes back. The places they go and how they use their time will let me read them, and interfering now, when I want to see what they choose, how they spend their limited time the thread. The notes they don't play.

Says somi is null despite this.

somi doesn't ask what the shroop was or follow up in any way. Doesn't seem concerned.

The shroop thing is half a joke, half real. I'm leaning more towards Bessie being town now, though, so let's call it three quarters a joke.

fonti backpedals. The first of many.

Example:
I will not yeet: fonti, Gorf, Eido
I would not like to yeet: Swiss, Wam, Bessie
I am ambivalent about yeeting: Laser, Sabrar
I would consider yeeting: Maven, Somi
I would like to yeet:

I needed another category, so I added that in. Use it if you want.

This is fonti's strongest push vs. somi.

I didn't already think somi was scum. They're both down there because they aren't townreads.

But not scum.

Vote: Somitomi

somi posts his reads just before this.

I'm skimming completely vanilla for a somi scumgame. Found this, don't have the context on the player's positioning to know how different or similar it is the readlist Somi posted here. Unfortunately it doesn't look like any of you were in that game, but if you followed along with it or something let me know, please.

Looking at a towngame, now, can probably dismiss some of the point about not really townreading Eido but scumreading the people pushing for him.

Points in Somi's favor:
Here he's scumreading Heury alone for scumreading Tattertot for bad reason while he's also scumreading tattertot. He's also scumreading Swiss for his push on Sabrar while Sabrar is only his second weakest townread.

The bessie read and placement is also pretty similar to this game.

Points against Somi:
He spends a lot more time thinking about and fleshing out his scum and weak townreads here, mostly because he's looking for scum, not looking for town, and thus doesn't feel like he as concrete reasons to back up his townreads besides "not scummy."


In this game, Somi's townreads feel more fleshed out than his scumreads, so he's townhunting more than or as much as he's scumhunting. This could be scum indicative because it's easier to make townreads as scum (as you already know who the town are) than it is to fake scumreads. That said, he didn't give a lot of reasons for townreading people in his scum game. That's potentially because he was already under a lot of pressure there.

This was fairly inconclusive. Anyway.

Based on comments by Sabrar and I, fonti comes up with this analysis, drops scumread on somi

Vote: Swiss

Hey Swiss you're boring af.

For the record I think Maven is probably scummier than Somi at this point, I just don't want to yeet a pr who can't claim.

Switches focus to Swiss with yeetbait Maven as backup.

I also kind of like this from Somi.

The town are:
1. Bessie. Putting a ton of effort into the game, clearly trying to think through things. Don't agree with where she's poking around or all of her logic, but I think it makes sense to her.
2. Eido. This dude is trying so hard to figure out the scum of some of you guys are just steam rolling him. Look at his early posts. He's trying to figure out if scum are pushing him, he wants to understand people, he's making independent reads and he keeps trying. Leave him alone.
3. Laser. Town!Laser sees the weaker town (Eido in this game) getting ganged up on tries to protect him. His read of me is wrong, but it makes sense, and it fits with what he knows of my play. He pointed out that Swiss wasn't following up on his reads and trying to figure things out. His Bessie read is good, his Wam read is nuanced and paranoid and comes to a conclusion I agree with, his Gorf read is similar to my thought process when Gorf was moving away from Eido (he just didn't get the reasoning at the time), I think his somi read may also be good.
4. Gorf. Gorf is natural af. He believed his Eido push, and it developed as he was figuring out his own thoughts. His scum game was kind of **** tonally, and that's not eveident here. I've already talked about this a lot.
5. Wam. Remember that asking the next question thing? Wam keeps doing it. He keeps a lot of his progression to himself, but you can see the way it shifts and him looking for partners. This is town!Wam.

The probably town are:
6. Sabrar. He's in the background, yes. But his questions are nuanced and focused on getting useful information. He intercedes when he wants to figure things out or get a specific point across. He cared enough about the Eido addressing the thread thing to find examples from other games.
7. Somitomi. This is a feeling, sue me.

The scum are:
8. Maven. Eido is correct, he feels slimy. Him coming around Eido felt like an attempt to get ahead of the curve as the yeet pressure moved elsewhere not somthing he actually believed. His offer to replace out feels like a scum worried he's letting down his teammates.

And.
9. Swiss.

Stay tuned for a case.

somi now Townlean.

tl;dr: fonti puts some marginal pressure on somi with the weird 'shroop' thing, but never really follows up on it. Pushes a little against somi, but finds an excuse to back off and move against Swiss and/or Maven instead. Creates distance early, but does what she can to save him when it matters. Although it hadn't occurred to me until the page just dropped half of my quotes as I was writing this, the shroop thing seems really specious considering that these boards lose parts of posts all the time.

 

[fontisian]

Dropping a quote is very different from losing half a sentence in the middle of a post, because the later indicates that the post was written out of order. And now we (or at least, I, heh) know why. Somi was laboring over those posts because they were about /Bessie's approach to Eido/. (Speaking of Bessie, I will dig up my gif of a squirrel and a dog who are friends as a gj for sticking on Eido.) Shroops man. They shouldn't be this accurate.

I'm not bothering to address your other points (or honestly, even read them) because they're wrong, that's not how I distance. Look at my play in whatever my last scumgame here was. I literally stayed on my teammate, keeping them the largest wagon, until the last few minutes of the Day, so Boom and others wouldn't think we were aligned.

 

[fontisian]

https://i.imgur.com/9hRi2jN.mp4

It's too late to learn how to make this show up as a gif.

bessie , enjoy.

 

[fontisian]

Dude, that's still a stick, just a different one.

Wow, that's a pretty strong read on Eido. I don't disagree with most of your points, but I don't recall you

I think they're pretty inconsequential, so I actually find it kind of strange that bessie assigns negative points to them. What's scummy about saying the default assumption out loud?

So Swiss is happy to lynch, but admits his case would be flimsy and that's town.... how?

Wait, I was doing what? And I didn't even notice? Wow, I'm a mafia god. Seriously though, anyone calling me one of the active players isn't following this game.

QFT, Eido narrowing the scum-pool to those particular players while repeatedly pointing out that the game barely started is some strage logic.
I kind of had the impression that I've seen Eido around here before, but multiple people talk like Eido is new.
Eido How much mafia experience do you have in general and how much of that is forum mafia?

EBWOP because I forgot to finish this sentence:

Wow, that's a pretty strong read on Eido. I don't disagree with most of your points, but I don't recall you having such a strong scumread so early. Or are the other reads extremely weak?

Here's the shroop, for reference.

 

[LaserGuy]

Vote Count 1.12

Somitomi(5): Chaco, Fontisian, Synchronicity, FrozenFlame, Dark Horse
Wam (5): Sabrar, Pythag, Kary, BoomFrog, LaserGuy
Chaco (2): Wam, Somitomi
FrozenFlame (1): Malakandra,

Deadline is in a little under 70 minutes from this post. With 13 alive, it takes seven to reach majority.

Last game we played where you were mafia, you ran up a Townie (somitomi, ironically) on D1. You didn't make a serious push any of your buddies until D3.

 

[fontisian]

And here's a definition of Shroop from a random mafia glossary I found, since I'm guessing it's not common knowledge:

• SHROOP: Steven Howard's Rule of Odd Posts. A mistake in one's post usually the result from changing the wording during revision before posting (e.g. "Scarecrow is was a wolf").

 

[Wam]

Font i hope you take the below as a compliment.

Look at it this way if they choice is between eido and font today, even if I think eido is slightly more likely to be scum, I am 100% staying on font as when we get closer to EOD I know which one I would be worried about.

 

[fontisian]

Last game we played where you were mafia, you ran up a Townie (somitomi, ironically) on D1. You didn't make a serious push any of your buddies until D3.

Sure, because they were in excellent positions. No bussing needed, all I had to do was support them a bit and turn town on each other. Then, when my position was bad, me bussing actually helps them a bit, because it makes it look like scum!me is trying to misyeet them.

To be scum with somi here I would have had to have done the opposite of what I did there. That is 1. undermining his position early, 2. walking it back in a way that didn't convince anyone, and ruined my credibility, while also still leaving the door for his yeet wide open.

In Things I Like, I supported my team and kept them in better positions than I was early, then went hard to get distancing cred when it mattered late and when they were unwilling to play out the game further (I might have defended them until we won, actually, but the pythag redirect messed with that and kind of broke Kary's spirit). The only thing remotely similar is that iirc when they were under a bit of scrutiny and I was in a good position, I made a spectacle of myself to keep the conversation on me instead of them (this might have been the game with Xivii, Bessie and Sabrar instead, I do not remember). You could argue I did that with Somi here, but honestly, I would have done a terrible job of it on a completely unviable yeet target while making myself look bad with the end of Day messing around.

 

[fontisian]

Font i hope you take the below as a compliment.

Look at it this way if they choice is between eido and font today, even if I think eido is slightly more likely to be scum, I am 100% staying on font as when we get closer to EOD I know which one I would be worried about.

Look.

If Eido is not scum, I swear upon my honor as a font that I will allow myself to be yeeted without fighting it Tomorrow. In the event of that happening I will ask for part of the Day to look for scum and firm up reads. That's it. I am that certain Eido will end the game.

 

[fontisian]

And while I appreciate that this comes from a place of respect for my scum game, it is nonetheless really ****ty to yeet me simply because you are scared if you think Eido is more likely, especially when we have a 1v6 situation rn.

Like, realistically Wam, even if I was scum and I got a misyeet on Eido, I can only shoot one of you or Laser Tonight, so surely I just die in Final 5?

 

[fontisian]

catching up from somewhere mid-Friday

I feel like this is needlessly pedantic and I don't know

I was actually surprised by how strong it appears to be. I know bessie's the kind to tunnel, but in my recollection she's usually ... friendlier towards new players, at least on D1 so Eido being her only strong read either way is odd.

EBWOP again

I feel like this is needlessly pedantic and I don't know why you think your interpretation of the wording is exactly what Eido meant.

Somi had one other shroop in this game, by the way. And, just like before, it was about Bessie's read on Eido.

Boom, bye scum.

 

[Swiss]

Cool so shall I just put this Laser case I was making back on the shelf?

 

[Swiss]

1.) Swiss - werewolf
2.) Laserguy - scum
3.) Bessie - town
4.) Sabrar - vig
5.) Wam - town
6.) Maven89 - town
7.) Fontisian - town
8.) Eido - scummy
9.) Somitomi - rip teammate
10.) Gorf - never lived to see 4/20 rip

 

[fontisian]

Swiss, I appreciate you. Thank you for not being hung up on me pushing your yeet Yesterday.

I really do not think it's Laser. He has a lot of reasons to be worried about me being scum and I do not blame him for that. I think him keeping his vote on me at eod and not really interacting with the somi wagon is completely within his town meta when he's sure he's on scum. Laser being wrong does not make him scum.

 

[Swiss]

It's got nothing to do with toDay, I reread overnight.

 

[Swiss]

But Font while you're here why did you push me at t-10 mins

 

[Eido]

Hello

Reading through

 

[fontisian]

But Font while you're here why did you push me at t-10 mins

From the biggest reason to the smallest:
1. It was fun, and I was kind of bored.
2. To gather information. Sabrar's vote meant there was a viable counterwagon in otherwise really boring and straightforward Day, and that kind of last minute pressure can produce really interesting and helpful results (as it did here).
3. I was pretty certain it wasn't going to happen. I was going to hammer somi around 10 min to deadline to get an early flip and go to bed, after he made an awkwardly worded post about what "the town" needs or something to that affect. I was only waiting around in case someone really wanted to say something, to not be rude.

 

[fontisian]

Hello

Reading through

Hey.

Sorry to catch you like this in the morning, but I figure I gave you one Day and that's was pretty nice, wasn't it?

 

[Eido]

Fonti don't put too much stock on the vote switch yesterday.

 

[Eido]

The buddy needs to play sensible there because they don’t want to draw the attention of a Tracker or Jailkeeper, especially if they’re the sole killer left.

Quick, wreckless play was a bad move there, but not scummy. Move on

I did some of my own reading I came to conclusion it was going to be between Bessie > Sabrar > LaserGuy

But let me reread with the Night kills in mind.

 

[Swiss]

Vote Laserguy

 

[Wam]

Cool so shall I just put this Laser case I was making back on the shelf?

Vote Laserguy

Traditionally its case then vote

 

[Wam]

And while I appreciate that this comes from a place of respect for my scum game, it is nonetheless really ****ty to yeet me simply because you are scared if you think Eido is more likely, especially when we have a 1v6 situation rn.

Like, realistically Wam, even if I was scum and I got a misyeet on Eido, I can only shoot one of you or Laser Tonight, so surely I just die in Final 5?

I know its sh***ty hence why I was being open with my thought process.

Weird things can happen in this game so it's not given that you would die in the final 5.

 

[Swiss]

Genuinely, I lost my case. Thought I saved it.