Debunking the Sheik's dthrow to 50/50 setup: STOP AIRDODGING

[Simikins]

Interesting how the moment @Mr-R says something everyone thinks that is what is true. Absol and @_Tree have obviously done a solid amount of testing on this (and I'm sure Mr. R has too), and we'll see what they're yabbering about when the video comes out. Just because a top player says something, doesn't mean it's 100% true. Always do some testing yourself to back it up.
Has anyone noticed that ZeRo never uses vanish after Dthrow? Maybe he's tested and found the same thing as absol. Just pointing out a top player to back up my point.
Not discrediting you Ramin, omg you're amazing <3 <3 <3

 

[EleH]

I remember telling a couple o' smashers this at TBH5 about that during friendlies.

Said smashers didn't believe my advice me and continued to air dodge Sheik's down throw, got killed by Vanish most of the time

Though to be fair, it's pretty character dependent air speed and DI wise. However, I do believe it's not as bad as everyone says it is. You can survive a good chunk of situations where you could be killed if Sheik uses uair too often. Ends up staling the move and even if you get hit by it at high %'s, you won't die unless you DI'ed up or Sheik had enough rage to kill.

How I see it, is it's all just a matter of whether or not you fear Sheik's uair, or not. If you fear it, you'll end up air dodging too often because you don't want to be killed. In reality, a relatively weak KO move won't do that most of the time and leads to a free KO on Sheik's part because she read your air dodge with a Vanish. If you can punish well enough, she shouldn't be throwing out Vanish in the first place because it's too risky if she misses. Once you show that you don't fear Sheik's uair, move out of the way, and don't air dodge, she has no choice but to back down. Again, it's too risky otherwise.

If you encounter a Sheik who is willing to take that risk, just be ready. I've got nothing else to say here.

 

[iceman9746]

Interesting how the moment @Mr-R says something everyone thinks that is what is true. Absol and @_Tree have obviously done a solid amount of testing on this (and I'm sure Mr. R has too), and we'll see what they're yabbering about when the video comes out. Just because a top player says something, doesn't mean it's 100% true. Always do some testing yourself to back it up.
Has anyone noticed that ZeRo never uses vanish after Dthrow? Maybe he's tested and found the same thing as absol. Just pointing out a top player to back up my point.
Not discrediting you Ramin, omg you're amazing <3 <3 <3

He doesn't vanish but he baits an air dodge then up air's. There for a 50/50.

 

[Simikins]

He doesn't vanish but he baits an air dodge then up air's. There for a 50/50.

Yeah that's what I meant :]

 

[Vici]

It definitely depends on the character you're down throwing whether the vanish will hit. I've noticed that a lot of the floaty characters can avoid the vanish even when they air dodge. But on non-floaty characters the vanish will hit them if they airdodge.

 

[Danimal197]

I can't ever seem to vanish a Ness airdodge

 

[Hydreigon360]

Lol thats why I try and get 1-2 down throws before opponents % gets too high so staleness helps the kill. I feel like real labbing of this needs to published cuz 50/50 get a lot of kills.

 

[Absol]

Lol thats why I try and get 1-2 down throws before opponents % gets too high so staleness helps the kill. I feel like real labbing of this needs to published cuz 50/50 get a lot of kills.

Actually staling the throw makes the kill set up not work as often. Needless to say you need like 4 in your cache to make that matter. Less damage = less knockback, but that also means less hitstun. I'll probably write something soon. But I already basically gave the gist in my how to kill thread with this 50-50.

 

[HoSmash4]

I can't ever seem to vanish a Ness airdodge

Thats because its not a 50/50 with floaties that can drift in their airdodge.

 

[Rubiss]

It may not be 50/50, but it is a fact that Sheik players are able to read air dodges after downthrow and are able to, in fact, following you in the air and nail you with uair or vanish. I don't know what the exact percent is that downthrow no longer connects with uair or vanish, but when you play a fast faller, it certainly isn't before it becomes a kill setup. As a Greninja player, I have lots quite a few stocks to down throw -> vanish at around 70-80% and without rage, it has killed me. I often try to jump away or air dodge, but I personally do not pull it off very often.

If you can escape it at those percents at a fast faller, the timing must be extremely tight and likely impossible on most online matches. Sheik getting early kills is very scary and honestly quite discouraging, given her combo game, frame data and OOS options.

 

[Ludus_Machinae]

It may not be 50/50, but it is a fact that Sheik players are able to read air dodges after downthrow and are able to, in fact, following you in the air and nail you with uair or vanish. I don't know what the exact percent is that downthrow no longer connects with uair or vanish, but when you play a fast faller, it certainly isn't before it becomes a kill setup. As a Greninja player, I have lots quite a few stocks to down throw -> vanish at around 70-80% and without rage, it has killed me. I often try to jump away or air dodge, but I personally do not pull it off very often. As for uair, I think it's active frames linger longer than an air dodge anyways, so that's a safe option for Sheik regardless.

If you can escape it at those percents at a fast faller, the timing must be extremely tight and likely impossible on most online matches. Sheik getting early kills is very scary and honestly quite discouraging, given her combo game, frame data and OOS options.

the problem with your airdoging is that greninja's airdoge comes out suprisingly fast and therefore ends quicker out of buffer.

 

[ArikadoSD]

It may not be 50/50, but it is a fact that Sheik players are able to read air dodges after downthrow and are able to, in fact, following you in the air and nail you with uair or vanish. I don't know what the exact percent is that downthrow no longer connects with uair or vanish, but when you play a fast faller, it certainly isn't before it becomes a kill setup. As a Greninja player, I have lots quite a few stocks to down throw -> vanish at around 70-80% and without rage, it has killed me. I often try to jump away or air dodge, but I personally do not pull it off very often. As for uair, I think it's active frames linger longer than an air dodge anyways, so that's a safe option for Sheik regardless.

If you can escape it at those percents at a fast faller, the timing must be extremely tight and likely impossible on most online matches. Sheik getting early kills is very scary and honestly quite discouraging, given her combo game, frame data and OOS options.

You should know approximately when uair should start killing greninja. never airdodge before that percent, it's not worth dying to a vanish. Vanish is sometimes not a good option because of that.

 

[Rubiss]

the problem with your airdoging is that greninja's airdoge comes out suprisingly fast and therefore ends quicker out of buffer.

So you believe it is a timing issue? From what I've been reading in the thread, people are saying you can't even dodge uair until very high percents. Am I supposed to just eat the damage from dthrow to uair? Frame data suggests you can actually air dodge Sheik uair, but anecdotally, I don't think you can until higher percents. Like over 90%. I could be totally wrong here and simply not reacting fast enough. Vanish only has two active frames where it does damage, so it must be coinciding with when I air dodge (but considering air dodges have 24 frames of intangibility, that's some pretty good timing).

You should know approximately when uair should start killing greninja. never airdodge before that percent, it's not worth dying to a vanish. Vanish is sometimes not a good option because of that.

So the solution against Sheik's dthrow is to just mash the jump button and hop you can make it out of hitstun in time? There is no point in airdodging? That's pretty insane and honestly discouraging, but enlightening.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So the solution against Sheik's dthrow is to just mash the jump button and hop you can make it out of hitstun in time? There is no point in airdodging? That's pretty insane and honestly discouraging, but enlightening.

No, the way I see it right now is that at percents where uair doesn't kill there's no point in airdodging and getting a vanish, possibly taking a stock. Uair only does 8% and it's actually not good for Sheik to use it cuz it'll stale, so getting hit by it is much better than eating a meaty vanish.

At percents where it kills, I'm still not certain what the best thing to do it, but for now it's a 50/50 I guess. I've been trying to DI away and then somehow try going down, cuz if you go down then uair won't kill cuz you'd be too low. I know someone who can react and airdodge properly to uair or wait for airdodge and then uair, though even he does mistakes sometimes.

Just always keep DIing dthrow away, and don't airdodge at percents where uair won't kill.

 

[Rubiss]

No, the way I see it right now is that at percents where uair doesn't kill there's no point in airdodging and getting a vanish, possibly taking a stock. Uair only does 8% and it's actually not good for Sheik to use it cuz it'll stale, so getting hit by it is much better than eating a meaty vanish.

At percents where it kills, I'm still not certain what the best thing to do it, but for now it's a 50/50 I guess. I've been trying to DI away and then somehow try going down, cuz if you go down then uair won't kill cuz you'd be too low. I know someone who can react and airdodge properly to uair or wait for airdodge and then uair, though even he does mistakes sometimes.

Just always keep DIing dthrow away, and don't airdodge at percents where uair won't kill.

My only concern is that if there is only one way to react to dthrow, you would become predictable and the Sheik opponent can adapt. But if taking the ~8% damage is the only real way to deal with it, well it's better than dying at 70-80%. As for kill percentages, I was under the impression that dthrow doesn't even follow up into uair at higher percents (though the entire topic seems to say otherwise). It's been a while since I've fought a Sheik who racked up that kind of damage on me, but in recent memory, uair doesn't seem to follow up dthrow after like 120% ish. I could be wrong (most likely), as I don't main Sheik, I only play against her.

 

[Ludus_Machinae]

So you believe it is a timing issue? From what I've been reading in the thread, people are saying you can't even dodge uair until very high percents. Am I supposed to just eat the damage from dthrow to uair? Frame data suggests you can actually air dodge Sheik uair, but anecdotally, I don't think you can until higher percents. Like over 90%. I could be totally wrong here and simply not reacting fast enough. Vanish only has two active frames where it does damage, so it must be coinciding with when I air dodge (but considering air dodges have 24 frames of intangibility.

i was actually talking about how you cant seem to airdoge the uair, nothing to do with the vanish

 

[New_Dumal]

I think the character is the key from when is this a 50/50 to kill.
I tested it hard with C.Falcon, and I will say what I got.

C.Falcon really takes the UAir if the tries to jump out of DThrow at high percents.
But it's high percents where it did not kill him if you don't have great rage with you.
When UAir starts to killing, it doesn't combo anymore with jump.
Fox don't have the same luck.

So I will say, it's a 50/50 in the hit situation, but different characters have options where this hit will not kill.
Like was said, is very hard(not impossible) to hit the UpB out of a floaty character airdodge.
It's hard to kill a heavy character out of UAir in most situations, even if it combos.
Rage effect is a variable that ***** us all. Now we can't have regular percents from our stuff.
I already got some kill double jumping and using Bouncing Fish, when people DI's away and jump with airdodge.
DThrow almost always put the opponent in a 50/50 situation to hit, when will kill... it's very hard to tell.

 

[Hydreigon360]

Actually staling the throw makes the kill set up not work as often. Needless to say you need like 4 in your cache to make that matter. Less damage = less knockback, but that also means less hitstun. I'll probably write something soon. But I already basically gave the gist in my how to kill thread with this 50-50.

So would you say you should try not to stale downthrow then

 

[Absol]

So would you say you should try not to stale downthrow then

Less percent damage means less hitstun

But also the less amount they go flying

I would assume hitstun > closer distance

 

[{Kyro}]

Less percent damage means less hitstun

But also the less amount they go flying

I would assume hitstun > closer distance

I did the whole thing about this, but the results were that staling scales the hitstun in proportion to knockback at the same rate that percent does, I.e., if two moves (one fresh, one stale) have equal knockback, then they also have equal hitstun.

Because of this, you actually should stale your down throw because it actually can make non-guaranteed 50/50 setups guaranteed