• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Dealing With Overly Defensive Players

  • Thread starter Deleted member 269706
  • Start date
D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
So I think we see a lot of threads about spammers or people who roll way too much and other stuff like that, and generally speaking, the answer to all of these issues is "be more defensive, wait for your opponent to initiate the attack, and punish them for it." But what happens when you're faced with someone who is so defensive that they literally will not move until rushed into? I was playing against this Marth player today who would do exactly that: he would just stand there and wait for me to attack him. He didn't even roll, he just sat there waiting. Whenever either one of us landed a hit, he would dart to the other side of the stage and just wait for me to go back over there and go in for an attack or grab or something, and the process would repeat. At the time I was playing as Ike, so I didn't have any ranged attacks, so dealing with this was exceptionally hard. My question is, how do you guys deal with players like this who are overly defensive.
 

MOI-ARI

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
912
Location
Up yours, kid.
NNID
TAISH0U
3DS FC
3523-2502-7558
Lol @ ^

But seriously, ike has some sexy range how cant you-? Anyways patience really , if he seriously is running away you simply need to grab when he tries for his sheild snd i can understand ikes speed so it can be better for your ike to 'fake' him out into a forward tilt or smash. Pretend to approach, react to his reaction before HE reacts yknow? Or main samus babe 8). Aim to take a stock off at all costs it'll be hard for him to stall when he losing with a stock short.
 
Last edited:

SuaveChaser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
311
That sounds like a terrible time lol. But most of the time you have to play the same way.
 
D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
grab them yo
****ing genius. Oh wait, I tried that, yeah it worked a few times, but this guy knew how to space, and when I was close enough, he would spot dodge. You know damn well that defensive players are good against everything, even dodging, I'm looking for actual help, if you're not gonna contribute then get out.

Lol @ ^

But seriously, ike has some sexy range how cant you-? Anyways patience really , if he seriously is running away you simply need to grab when he tries for his sheild snd i can understand ikes speed so it can be better for your ike to 'fake' him out into a forward tilt or smash. Pretend to approach, react to his reaction before HE reacts yknow? Or main samus babe 8). Aim to take a stock off at all costs it'll be hard for him to stall when he losing with a stock short.
Ike's range definitely helped, but with Marth's speed it was real hard to get in. I would go for the grabs, but his spacing was pretty incredible, really utilizing the tipper effect of Marth's sword. If I went in for an aerial or tomahawk (faked out aerial, go in for a grab instead) he would just spot dodge and punish. His speed was real hard for me to get past. The only reason I beat him is through countering and edge-guarding, which isn't how I want to win. The next round I switched to Rosalina and had a much easier time against him, but the initial match was still something I do not want to put up with again.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Raijinken

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
4,420
Location
Durham, NC
In For Glory, the answer is to generally play characters who are either better at camping, or who are hard to dodge. Ike's actually not bad at that, due to his damage and attack timing. You can out-reach his grab, just try to bait a counter and punish with a smash.

It's a lot more manageable without lag, of course. But if a player uses it online, just finish the game (whether you SD, play it out, or whatever) and then drop and don't play them again. Notably, if you can take the first stock, you can just go pitch your own tent and let the timer tick. It's no fun, but if you beat them at their own game, maybe they'll get frustrated and quit.

Edit:
Reading your last reply, I'd also add that there is nothing wrong with good use of Counter and proper edgeguarding. Ike's edgeguarding is actually really strong due to his range and knockback, and Counter itself is a pretty hard move to use against a flexible and quick opponent. Again, maybe not the flashiest ways to finish, but sometimes you have to play to character strengths if your preferred strategies aren't paying off.

Another thing my brother and I like using that can catch a lot of people off guard is Ike's back-air. It comes out pretty fast and hits rather hard, so especially if you can trick your opponent out of their shield or in a scenario where they can't counter, you can net pretty nice kills around 80%.
 
Last edited:

Asdioh

Not Asidoh
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
16,200
Location
OH
If you have something that's safe on shield, space with that. If he keeps spotdodging your grab, it means you're being predictable with it. Spotdodging loses to doing nothing, or in your case, standing there holding jab. Overall though, the problem is wifi. A lot of rock paper scissors going on here, but input delay can make a lot of your correct reads whiff. You can deal with his play style more easily offline.
:phone:
 

LancerStaff

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
8,118
Location
Buried under 990+ weapons
3DS FC
1504-5709-4054
Practice, really. People will dodge your grabs in any game if you're too predictable.

Although it goes without saying Ike isn't exactly a great choice for 1v1s. Honestly, I just kite Ikes for easy wins since Pit either outspeeds or outranges his attacks. The Marth player was more or less using the optimal vs Ike strategy.
 

Colin Steele

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 5, 2014
Messages
164
I don't **** with it. I've generally come to believe that the competitive scene online will die out and become nothing but this roll/camp cancer within a year, so I'm trying to gear up to get onto a ladder or something at play there where people are less likely to play this way. But then this is a really valid way to play - so defensively and calculated - and so a lot of people will still play like this.

Probably just gonna try and get back into P.M. at some point.
 

MOI-ARI

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
912
Location
Up yours, kid.
NNID
TAISH0U
3DS FC
3523-2502-7558
****ing genius. Oh wait, I tried that, yeah it worked a few times, but this guy knew how to space, and when I was close enough, he would spot dodge. You know damn well that defensive players are good against everything, even dodging, I'm looking for actual help, if you're not gonna contribute then get out.


Ike's range definitely helped, but with Marth's speed it was real hard to get in. I would go for the grabs, but his spacing was pretty incredible, really utilizing the tipper effect of Marth's sword. If I went in for an aerial or tomahawk (faked out aerial, go in for a grab instead) he would just spot dodge and punish. His speed was real hard for me to get past. The only reason I beat him is through countering and edge-guarding, which isn't how I want to win. The next round I switched to Rosalina and had a much easier time against him, but the initial match was still something I do not want to put up with again.

Ahh i see. Then yeah like said before, just counterpick with a character thats more suited for camping. Rosalina was a good go-to but perhaps someone with a reliable projectile would help best. Nothng like the good ol lazer play of falco to have me running in with my marth in an instant. >.<
 

dragontamer

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
514
NNID
dragontamer5788
So I think we see a lot of threads about spammers or people who roll way too much and other stuff like that, and generally speaking, the answer to all of these issues is "be more defensive, wait for your opponent to initiate the attack, and punish them for it." But what happens when you're faced with someone who is so defensive that they literally will not move until rushed into? I was playing against this Marth player today who would do exactly that: he would just stand there and wait for me to attack him. He didn't even roll, he just sat there waiting. Whenever either one of us landed a hit, he would dart to the other side of the stage and just wait for me to go back over there and go in for an attack or grab or something, and the process would repeat. At the time I was playing as Ike, so I didn't have any ranged attacks, so dealing with this was exceptionally hard. My question is, how do you guys deal with players like this who are overly defensive.
The player was likely training his reads against you. Pure defensive play means that your rushdown was extraordinarily predictable, or your opponent had extremely good reads against you.

This means your approach game is likely... horrible.

Instead of blindly rushing in next time, try the following:

1. What does your opponent do when you empty hop? Just jump and then fast-fall outside of your opponent's range. If your opponent moves, memorize how far he moves, and empty-hop outside of his range again.

Empty-hop -> Fast Fall -> Shield is extremely safe. Unless your opponent rushes into you and grabs you (or in Marth's case, shield-breakers you), you can do empty-hops all day to try and get an accurate "read" on your opponent.

2. Once you figure out how your opponent reacts to empty-hops and other footsies, predict a read and then punish.

Its not easy. But based on your complaints in this thread, I'm guessing your yomi is awful and needs work.

3. If your opponent really doesn't do anything about your empty-hops near him, then just punch him with fast attacks. Ike doesn't have many, but use forward-tilt and jab. I'd also suggest taking advantage of Ike's superior range, and trying to hit him with forward-tilt and down-tilt.

Just walk up to your opponent carefully. Stay outside of Marth's range, and then wait to see what he does. When you're confident that you have your opponent's pattern down (is he rolling backwards? Is he rolling forwards? Does he dash and grab you?), that is when you start hitting him with your attacks.

Otherwise, learn to footsie. Footsie is the art of weaving in and out of your opponent's range. You walk barely inside of his range and immediately step out (before he can strike). It baits attacks, and makes your opponent open to counter-attacks.
 
Last edited:

EarthBoundEnigma

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 4, 2014
Messages
214
Location
EST
NNID
EarthBoundEnigma
What i usually do when im against a defensive player : Play more defensive than him until he rage quit.
This is, seriously and without a doubt, the smartest thing you can do. Most overly defensive players will become frustrated that their tactic isn't working and attempt to attack, allowing you to take control of the situation.

Of course, if you want to be offensive, the wisest option is to get them to roll to the edge of the stage then keep them in that last roll range. Either they engage, spot dodge, roll backwards (in place against the edge), or roll into you for you to punish. Remember, special grabs work on shields and can punish rolls, too.

I've played well over 1,000 matches in For Glory and have close to a 90% winrate in my most recent hundred matches. (Meaning I've played against my share of roll-dodge-shield-happy players and have adjusted to the playstyle.)
With experience you adapt and learn to read their rolls and habits on a per-person basis, but until that point you will have to start with deliberate and mindful offensive decisions and knowing how to do the same defensive style as them. Getting good at it will quickly give you the experience you'll need to understand the weaknesses and holes in such a defensive style.
 

deepseadiva

Bodybuilding Magical Girl
Joined
Mar 11, 2008
Messages
8,001
Location
CO
3DS FC
1779-0766-2622
This is honestly a core value of the game so I see two options:

- play a spammier character. Cuz Ike aint gonna cut it apparently.

- man up. That playstyle is based around punishing an approach. That's half the game - the other half is being able to apply pressure when you have to approach yourself. If you're failing at this level, maybe harsh to say (but none the less true), you've only mastered 1/2 of the game. Do you lose every match whenever you're a stock down as well?

Learn the holes. Learn how to apply safe pressure. Play campier characters. That's how I deal with it.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
Moderator
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,651
Location
Rochester, NY
NNID
Sansoldier
3DS FC
4957-2846-2924
Use your fastest/safest attacks while spacing on the ground and in the air, basic stuff. If you're getting faked out at that point, you're likely getting outplayed and need to study up a bit more on what to do.
 

Alaya

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
35
Sounds like you need to work on your approaches and mindgames. I had this same problem and when I realized what I was doing wrong it was like a lightbulb went off over my head.

There are some concepts, techniques, and tactics that, alongside raw talent and experience, simply put a player on a higher level than others. Approaching an enemy is a sub-category of the all important 'spacing' concept that has to do with the way that a player moves in on and engages an enemy.

The key terms here to remember are 'options' and how to 'cover' those 'options'. When you approach an enemy player, both of you have a set of 'options' that refers to what actions the player can take. When two players collide, the one who has put more thought into using their own 'options' to deal with the enemies 'options' and correctly guesses which 'option' the enemy will take, that player is the one who profits from that engagement.

A specific example might make this simpler:

As Ike you want to approach Marth, who is standing there waiting for you. You start dashing at Marth and as you are about to come into his range it is now time to consider the 'options' both player has.

As Ike you have options like these:

A) Dash Attack, this option beats an enemy grab but fails against anything else.

B) Dash Grab, this option beats shields but fails against anything else.

C) Counter, this option beats an instant enemy attack but fails against anything else.

D) Shield and see what they do. This option will beat any non grab attack and also doesn't leave you open like counter does if the enemy doesn't fall for it.

Meanwhile Marth has options like these.

A) Use a jab, tilt, dancing blade, or smash (from least risky to most risky if the enemy shields).

B) Suddenly run forward and dash attack Ike before he gets in range to do anything.

C) Shield expecting an attack, then grab if correct.

D) Counter if he REALLY expects a dash attack, riskier than shielding but a higher payoff.

E) Shield Breaker if he expects the enemy to dash in and shield.


Each player has more options than those, especially when you get into aerials, but you get the idea. Each player has tools, each player has been paying attention to the other player and has an idea of what they expect. Every approach is a mindgame between two players, and if you just run in without thinking you're just going to get slaughtered unless the other player is similarly mindless in their play.

All in all, don't just use whatever approach option you WANT to use, look at how your opponent has been reacting and act based on that. If they shield grab you every time you run in then do a grab next time instead of a dash attack. If they smash attack you when you run in then run into a shield and punish them when they hit you you. If they roll towards you when they are at the edge, do a down smash as they are under you and send them flying. If they always jump when you get close then jump attack in the air before they get their and knock them out of the sky.

Smash really is a lot more of a strategy game then people seem to give it credit for. When two players are both aware of the options each has it becomes a completely different experience complete with psychological conditioning, bluffs and double bluffs, feints, false openings, positioning strategies relying on a centimeter, etc. I think most people will find smash to be a stimulating mental exercise once they get past the 'run at the other guy and hit my attack buttons' stage.
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
4,420
Location
Durham, NC
I'd have to test it, but Ike may now have at least an attack that out-ranges Marth's Counter (speculation, but Marth's reach IS shorter than before). Another option is to jump over him, fall below, and come up with Aether (a risky maneuver, but likely unexpected). In lag, it's near impossible to counter in any meaningful way, and you get up to three edge-grabs before you're forced to return.
 
D

Deleted member 269706

Guest
Hey thanks you guys. I admit, I'm a sucker for being way too aggressive at some points, and I do get punished for it quite often. I've adapted to the people who roll and airdodge way too much and I've been learning how to punish those types of players, but spot-dodges and power shields is really where I've been having the most trouble which is really what this thread was all about. I guess the problem is I just feel weird going in for the empty hop or the shield. Seems like it's way too easy to punish and I'm just leaving myself vulnerable. I know how to play a more defensive play style (after all, I am maining Ike and my last 100 win rate is at the 75% mark), but I'm admittedly really bad at playing the waiting game and getting the more advanced reads on players, which is really what I'm asking for advice in this thread. Though I appreciate the advice given so far.
 

Raijinken

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Messages
4,420
Location
Durham, NC
Hey thanks you guys. I admit, I'm a sucker for being way too aggressive at some points, and I do get punished for it quite often. I've adapted to the people who roll and airdodge way too much and I've been learning how to punish those types of players, but spot-dodges and power shields is really where I've been having the most trouble which is really what this thread was all about. I guess the problem is I just feel weird going in for the empty hop or the shield. Seems like it's way too easy to punish and I'm just leaving myself vulnerable. I know how to play a more defensive play style (after all, I am maining Ike and my last 100 win rate is at the 75% mark), but I'm admittedly really bad at playing the waiting game and getting the more advanced reads on players, which is really what I'm asking for advice in this thread. Though I appreciate the advice given so far.
The main thing is to learn to adapt to your opponent, rather than whatever is the "most common" playstyle. There's a time and place for everything, but against a character with comparable range and a counter, you just have to be more cautious with your approach. Once you've landed the first hit (especially if they're camping the edge, which is a pretty risky position, all things considered), Ike's knockback can keep characters with less-than-astounding recoveries (especially including Marth) well offstage. Just be careful not to get countered when you go offstage, too. If you can keep enough aerial control to bait a counter, he'll have to sacrifice some height and distance, and depending on your positioning, you can punish the endlag of the counter for a solid kill.

But the important thing is that you're learning and adapting. You'll get it down before too long.
 

Alaya

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
35
Hey thanks you guys. I admit, I'm a sucker for being way too aggressive at some points, and I do get punished for it quite often. I've adapted to the people who roll and airdodge way too much and I've been learning how to punish those types of players, but spot-dodges and power shields is really where I've been having the most trouble which is really what this thread was all about. I guess the problem is I just feel weird going in for the empty hop or the shield. Seems like it's way too easy to punish and I'm just leaving myself vulnerable. I know how to play a more defensive play style (after all, I am maining Ike and my last 100 win rate is at the 75% mark), but I'm admittedly really bad at playing the waiting game and getting the more advanced reads on players, which is really what I'm asking for advice in this thread. Though I appreciate the advice given so far.

Honestly, all you really need to do to make an immediate large improvement is to start using mixups with the specific purpose in mind of crossing up the enemies defensive strategy. I get a lot of mileage out of foxtrotting into and immediately out of range of an enemy, it seems downright silly just how many times every single match that someone will instantly overcommit with a smash attack or something and then I dash back in and punish with a dash attack/grab/sliding upsmash/special. It works if someone is coming down from the air too, I run under them as if to hit them out of the air when they land then fox trot to the side slightly and 9/10 times they will have air dodged or tried a dair and are hit with landing lag while I punish them. Best part is they cant afford to not react like that because I can just upsmash them anyways if they don't.
 

Jebus244

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
195
Location
Jacksonville, Florida
NNID
NOHANDLEB4RZ
The only reason I beat him is through countering and edge-guarding, which isn't how I want to win.
So you beat him, but didn't want to beat him that way? Sounds to me like you need to get over that. If you're playing to win, win however you can! Check out the book "Playing to win" by David Sirlin. He was a competitive Street Fighter player and he talks about competitive philosophy. The same philosophy that had melee pros utilizing wave dashing, exploiting shiek's speed, pushing JP to be a top tier character. If you win by edge guarding and countering, then you win, the end. I want to finish every game with a knee, but that's not how I win because gameplay doesn't always cater to that.

My roommate plays Marth the way you describe this player. In fact, I would have guessed it was him if he played online, but he doesn't. I wreck him when he defends like this because I mix up approaches. Like air dodging in behind him, or trying to bait a smash. I also throw in an airial falcon kick just to make him feel that sometimes he should counter when I approach. I make him whiff and then punish. once I get him in the air at about 50%, he can't keep me out of his face. I don't play Ike, so I can't tell you what to do, but at a highly competitive level, it's less about specific playstyles and more about reads and mind games. That's the whole point of dash dancing and the reason he was waiting to see what you did/how you played. Next time you face someone like this, try to take a stock and time him out.
 
Last edited:

IWinToLose

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 7, 2014
Messages
76
It seems you're having issues while dashing towards them and they spot dodge you. There are a few things Ike can do to counter this:

1. Dash and shield right in front of their face. Confirm the spot dodge and input grab or jab. Time it well so it's a guaranteed punish on their spot dodge.

This technique is countered by your opponent simply grabbing you instead of spot dodging.

2. Do a short hop approach. If you see the spot dodge, do Nair. With Nair, you get a free follow up. If you see that he's still shielding instead of spot dodging, you can either use your double hop to retreat/bait a dash attack/dash grab and possibly punish with FF Nair. Or, you can do an empty hop (fast fall your short hop without attacking) and simply grab him if he's still shielding. If he rolls towards you, you can't really react to this by the time you decide to short hop but you can predict it and do a short hop in place/backwards and Nair him or Fast Fall grab him.

Short Hop Nair is countered by a well timed spot dodge or even just shielding.
Empty Short Hop is countered by an 'anti-air' attack (attack that forces you to get hit by it because it has multiple active frames and you can't air dodge and shield on landing at the same time) or grabs or fast attacks on where you land.
Empty Short Hop can be beaten sometimes with a roll.
Double Hop brings too many factors into consideration to state a hard counter to it so I will just leave it at that.


3. Dash towards him and stop even further away with a Forward B input. Make sure to stay out of range of most of the opponent's non projectile moves and start charging Forward B. If you see the spot dodge or roll towards you, let go of Forward B. If he just stands there shielding, wait for him to drop his shield or drain his shield, and respond accordingly.

Forward B is hard countered by perfect shield (easier than it sounds against Forward B), counterable by counters, spacing, and jumping.

4. (RISKY OPTION) Do a dash forward Up Smash. Keep in mind that this is the most punishable option listed here but if you read the spot dodge right (no way to do this on reaction), you can land an Up Smash, often netting that much needed kill. Keep in mind though that if your opponent is spot dodge happy and dodges your Up Smash, he can punish you with something very hard like an FSmash. This also can sometimes catch a roll behind you.

5. (Somewhat Risky Option) Dash towards them and do a pivot grab or pivot ftilt.

Countered by rolling behind you.

6. Spot Dodge his Spot Dodge. Dash up to him, shield, and spot dodge after he spot dodges. A bit trollish but you can often dodge a throw or a fast attack from your opponent and punish that instead.

Counter by slower/delayed moves or long lasting hitboxes/multi-hits.

Keep in mind that a good opponent will quickly react to your response to his spot dodge and punish accordingly. These are just simply tools to use and hopefully will open your eyes to the various mix ups available in this game. Also, keep in mind you can counter his counters by anticipating his counter to your counter and countering that. This is what this game is all about, and attempting to do this hundreds of times.

Also, you need to always be changing your attack strings faster than your opponent can adapt. In contrast, you need to adjust your defensive options to match all their attack strings. I always bait the opponents early in the match to see what they do as most For Glory players will reveal most of their approach options very quickly and also repeat those approach options over and over.
 
Last edited:

PCHU

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 4, 2008
Messages
1,901
Location
Jackson, Tennessee
I usually approach with dash -> shield far enough away to where I can safely poke them but they can't reach me.
As Ike, I'd try to space with nairs (don't be afraid to utilize the back part of that move; it's actually pretty good, but I forget if that's just in PM) into jabs, maybe mix up jab into grab if they're used to shielding your standard AAA.
Don't be afraid to use quick draw; it's a sucky move that leaves you in lag for ungodly amounts of time, but it does catch people offguard.
In general, try to make use of every aspect of your character -- many people aren't used to fighting others who actually use their whole tool kit, and it actually does help for having an answer to every situation.
 

?.?

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 22, 2013
Messages
228
Location
Florida
I play puff and sheik and luckily those two characters have at least one aerial with decent active frames... so I start off with grab conditioning and once they start spot dodging I throw in some shff nairs... The beauty of both of these is that with proper spacing even on shield you can fade out and not get hard punished for it.
 

THERyanP7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 16, 2014
Messages
145
I feel your pain 100% in this... defensive play is rewarded way too much in this game! What I do when guys are just standing and spamming projectiles or waiting for me to attack is just stand right outside of their range and taunt! A quick taunt of course but about 80% of the time they'll rush me and you should be able to roll and rush back in at them! I still have no answer for spot dodging though! It is way too fast and easy to damage out of!
 

Swamp Sensei

Today is always the most enjoyable day!
BRoomer
Joined
Jan 4, 2013
Messages
38,038
Location
Um....Lost?
NNID
Swampasaur
3DS FC
4141-2776-0914
Switch FC
SW-6476-1588-8392
Be aggressive without attacking.

Remember shielding doesn't mean you're being defensive.
 

David Viran

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 13, 2014
Messages
1,500
I feel your pain 100% in this... defensive play is rewarded way too much in this game! What I do when guys are just standing and spamming projectiles or waiting for me to attack is just stand right outside of their range and taunt! A quick taunt of course but about 80% of the time they'll rush me and you should be able to roll and rush back in at them! I still have no answer for spot dodging though! It is way too fast and easy to damage out of!
Spot dodge isn't to hard to punish, you can use a move that hits more then once like a jab or you could just bait it and punish it with any move.
 

Alaya

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
35
Spot dodge isn't to hard to punish, you can use a move that hits more then once like a jab or you could just bait it and punish it with any move.
Charged smash attack > spotdodge if you are willing to commit to the hard read.
 
Top Bottom