Beeble
Smash Journeyman
No Wii and wifi is ghey. But thank you for offer.Brawl Code? Any Smash is good for now.
Yes. Lets. Either sat/sun works, but earlier in the day only, I have to work.
-
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CT4 Canada RESULTS
- Thread starter FalseFalco
- Start date
I say Sunday morning, because I got plans for Saturday Mike.
My place, be there or be square >.>
Oh and Tyson if you're interested in joining us contact me on MSN; Zerokool_cool@hotmail.com
My place, be there or be square >.>
Oh and Tyson if you're interested in joining us contact me on MSN; Zerokool_cool@hotmail.com
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
Yeah alright, I'll bite this cookie.
When reading an argument like this, I think it's important to step outside of the inherent bias associated with the extremists on both ends of the argument, because realistically, most smashers play and enjoy both games. The minute you assume that anyone is on either "side" of the argument, it becomes very easy to misinterpret what they're saying. Which is why Levi didn't flame anybody and then you immediately called him a disrespectful bullshitter and now here we are.
That said, I'm not saying that it's right to completely ignore the fact that there is a very clear divide in the community--it's obvious, after all, and there will inevitably be idiots on both sides of the debate. I'm just saying that the views of one individual on either side of the argument does not necessarily represent the views of the extremists. Treat each opinion on an individual basis, and I think this negative energy can be spun into something positive*.
We made a lot of headway in that department and the significance and competitiveness of the Melee game was recognized by some outside sources and all of a sudden, we had a little bright dot on the sanctioned professional gaming circuit through things like eVo and MLG events. The fight for greater representation as professional-level gamers wasn't finished, of course, as there were still legions of 2D loyalists who wouldn't accept the unique format of Smash Bros. as a "true" fighting game. I admire communities that brought Melee into the fold (like Manitoba, for instance) and saw it for what it was really worth--it helped advance competitive Smash Bros. further along in the context of ALL gaming.
Brawl hit the streets and suddenly, we don't even have a case when we try to tell some veteran Street Fighter players that Smash Bros. isn't a party game. A part of that is because of the civil war within our own community, but the only reason that civil war exists is because Brawl is a party game in the eyes of competitors playing other fighting games. You can make a case for Melee being a legitimate punishment-oriented fighting game and you can win over the opinions of the skeptics from outside the smash community--we accuse them of being closed-minded to the competitive nature of the Melee engine and those who are willing to lend an open ear will sometimes learn a thing or two about the game and that's how we ended up getting MLG and the like.
Now we're working backwards. It's hard enough to get recognition for Melee--good luck trying to convince a committee of people who've been playing competitive arcade fighters for 15 years that Brawl is a competitive engine. You will be dismissed as a green, vacuous noob with no knowledge of fighting game mechanics faster than you can say "share stock."
So, from a competitive video gaming point of view (not to be confused with "competitive smash"), Brawl is going to hurt Smash Bros. overall.
"Hey guys, come check out OUR game! The first one's pretty old and not many people play it anymore, the second one is amazing and the new one is fun fun fun! Can we join your pro gaming circuit??"
I mean, come on...tack that on to the fact that within this proportionately tiny community of smashers, there are people who don't even support competitive Brawl (which doesn't help the overall Smash Bros. cause at all) and it'll be a miracle if smash appears on any gaming circuit a couple years down the road. You know, when the money runs out. Melee was costing MLG money towards the end of its run and they still supported it because of the unity of the national community and the gross potential associated with the spirit of the competitive game. You think they're going to shell out the same kind of dough for a community where half of its own players loudly reject the game's competitive viability? Absolutely not.
"You're just mad because new people are coming and are actually good"?? Really? Good at a game that we just don't care about from a competitive standpoint? We're mad about that? Nah, not at all. We're a little steamed that the game is so bad, yes. Not the player's fault. And as an elitist community, we're a little steamed that people can roll in out of nowhere, knowing nothing of smash except that the dumbed-down version is a hot Wii title this season, and then move right in to swipe a piece of the same glorious pie that we helped build for Melee without even knowing what they're eating. A pie made of countless hours of organizational efforts, community-building, networking across regions and uploading more YouTube videos than any man could watch in a lifetime in the everlasting quest to prove who is the best.
A Brawl community would not have emerged with the same fire as it did, were it not for the Melee backbone and if you intend to be a real skill-based competitor in the new game, I say enjoy it while it lasts. The real fight is in Melee, and if this is to stay a "competitive community," I can't imagine Brawl not falling back to a fun side-event like 64 did eventually. That is, if Melee at least gets a little support at what have become Brawl-featured tournaments.
In that respect, yes, I think this is a good thing for a community--it acts a little bit like a giant sieve. We'll sit on this hype and enthusiasm for a year or two, bringing all kinds of pumped-up gamers to Brawl tournaments who have maybe never even seen a Gamecube and play it all out, Melee and Brawl events alike. Show these noobs what a real game is like and it will effectively filter out the players who don't belong in a competitive community anyway and maybe in four years, Brawl will be played exclusively on WiFi while the real players gather internationally for 4-Stock Olympic Melee in Sochi, Russia.
Maybe I'll never understand the decision of an artist to create a more appealing and more accessible game over a better one, but I don't hate it. Its just that its existence threatens to cheapen what Melee represents and that's a little concerning to the impassioned fan.
Playing Brawl in competition is a little bit like a family reunion: it's awkward, you don't know a lot of people, it takes forever, you can't L-cancel, etc. Melee is more like your family at home: it attracts a unique kind of person that can appreciate the same depth and spirit of what it takes to learn and compete over time as a raw skilled player; a tighter-knit family that learns to appreciate and exploit one another's weaknesses like you'd do to your siblings at home, whilst loving them all the same.
Family reunions are nice and all, but when it's all finished and I've seen every cousin and every aunt that I need to see, I just want to go back home and play some Melee.
But whether we like it or not, they're all family.
* Of course, turning a negative into a positive means two different things: for Brawl supporters, it means hushing up that whiny kid in the classroom through equal representation of both games....whereas for Melee supporters, it's like being forced to hang out with some kid you don't like just to be fair, even though he clearly wasn't raised properly and pissed all over your sand castle at the last beach party.
All he said was that the Brawl results don't reflect Melee ranks as closely as he feels they should, citing people that he's never heard of suddenly emerging near the top. That's not flaming people--isn't flaming people supposed to involve personal insults? If people take "fuck brawl" personally, I don't see why that's his problem.
When reading an argument like this, I think it's important to step outside of the inherent bias associated with the extremists on both ends of the argument, because realistically, most smashers play and enjoy both games. The minute you assume that anyone is on either "side" of the argument, it becomes very easy to misinterpret what they're saying. Which is why Levi didn't flame anybody and then you immediately called him a disrespectful bullshitter and now here we are.
That said, I'm not saying that it's right to completely ignore the fact that there is a very clear divide in the community--it's obvious, after all, and there will inevitably be idiots on both sides of the debate. I'm just saying that the views of one individual on either side of the argument does not necessarily represent the views of the extremists. Treat each opinion on an individual basis, and I think this negative energy can be spun into something positive*.
This is what I mean about making the best out of a bad situation, but it can really go in two different ways. I don't know how savvy all of you are with regards to how Melee is/was seen in other fighting game communities. Those are vast networks of players and the majority of them look at Smash Bros. in general and immediately come to the conclusion that it's a "party game" and has very little competitive viability. As Melee evolved, we were in a similar little spat with the rest of the fighting game community that the smash community is immersed in now, working hard to get represented at larger gaming events as legitimate competitors.
We made a lot of headway in that department and the significance and competitiveness of the Melee game was recognized by some outside sources and all of a sudden, we had a little bright dot on the sanctioned professional gaming circuit through things like eVo and MLG events. The fight for greater representation as professional-level gamers wasn't finished, of course, as there were still legions of 2D loyalists who wouldn't accept the unique format of Smash Bros. as a "true" fighting game. I admire communities that brought Melee into the fold (like Manitoba, for instance) and saw it for what it was really worth--it helped advance competitive Smash Bros. further along in the context of ALL gaming.
Brawl hit the streets and suddenly, we don't even have a case when we try to tell some veteran Street Fighter players that Smash Bros. isn't a party game. A part of that is because of the civil war within our own community, but the only reason that civil war exists is because Brawl is a party game in the eyes of competitors playing other fighting games. You can make a case for Melee being a legitimate punishment-oriented fighting game and you can win over the opinions of the skeptics from outside the smash community--we accuse them of being closed-minded to the competitive nature of the Melee engine and those who are willing to lend an open ear will sometimes learn a thing or two about the game and that's how we ended up getting MLG and the like.
Now we're working backwards. It's hard enough to get recognition for Melee--good luck trying to convince a committee of people who've been playing competitive arcade fighters for 15 years that Brawl is a competitive engine. You will be dismissed as a green, vacuous noob with no knowledge of fighting game mechanics faster than you can say "share stock."
So, from a competitive video gaming point of view (not to be confused with "competitive smash"), Brawl is going to hurt Smash Bros. overall.
"Hey guys, come check out OUR game! The first one's pretty old and not many people play it anymore, the second one is amazing and the new one is fun fun fun! Can we join your pro gaming circuit??"
I mean, come on...tack that on to the fact that within this proportionately tiny community of smashers, there are people who don't even support competitive Brawl (which doesn't help the overall Smash Bros. cause at all) and it'll be a miracle if smash appears on any gaming circuit a couple years down the road. You know, when the money runs out. Melee was costing MLG money towards the end of its run and they still supported it because of the unity of the national community and the gross potential associated with the spirit of the competitive game. You think they're going to shell out the same kind of dough for a community where half of its own players loudly reject the game's competitive viability? Absolutely not.
Yes, it is an elitist community and frankly, that's kinda the way we like it. The thing is, elitism and realism are not mutually exclusive concepts and the word "elitist" carries such negative connotations that I think people often forget what it represents.
"You're just mad because new people are coming and are actually good"?? Really? Good at a game that we just don't care about from a competitive standpoint? We're mad about that? Nah, not at all. We're a little steamed that the game is so bad, yes. Not the player's fault. And as an elitist community, we're a little steamed that people can roll in out of nowhere, knowing nothing of smash except that the dumbed-down version is a hot Wii title this season, and then move right in to swipe a piece of the same glorious pie that we helped build for Melee without even knowing what they're eating. A pie made of countless hours of organizational efforts, community-building, networking across regions and uploading more YouTube videos than any man could watch in a lifetime in the everlasting quest to prove who is the best.
A Brawl community would not have emerged with the same fire as it did, were it not for the Melee backbone and if you intend to be a real skill-based competitor in the new game, I say enjoy it while it lasts. The real fight is in Melee, and if this is to stay a "competitive community," I can't imagine Brawl not falling back to a fun side-event like 64 did eventually. That is, if Melee at least gets a little support at what have become Brawl-featured tournaments.
In that respect, yes, I think this is a good thing for a community--it acts a little bit like a giant sieve. We'll sit on this hype and enthusiasm for a year or two, bringing all kinds of pumped-up gamers to Brawl tournaments who have maybe never even seen a Gamecube and play it all out, Melee and Brawl events alike. Show these noobs what a real game is like and it will effectively filter out the players who don't belong in a competitive community anyway and maybe in four years, Brawl will be played exclusively on WiFi while the real players gather internationally for 4-Stock Olympic Melee in Sochi, Russia.
Just to clarify, I really tried to like Brawl a lot. I wanted to like it a lot and I wanted and expected that it would be the best game ever made. I do own it and I do play it--in fact, there's probably not too many people who have all the Challenges panels cracked and as menial as that sounds, it really does take some serious, thorough gameplay just to get through it all. I gave it a lot of hours and a very hard look. I play a lot of Ness and I play the Ice Climbers because their desync mechanics are easier and fun. But when you consider what I expected and then what I got, the gap between the two is very pronounced and I must stress that when I'm saying "Brawl sucks," I'm really just emphasizing how much better Melee is.
Maybe I'll never understand the decision of an artist to create a more appealing and more accessible game over a better one, but I don't hate it. Its just that its existence threatens to cheapen what Melee represents and that's a little concerning to the impassioned fan.
Playing Brawl in competition is a little bit like a family reunion: it's awkward, you don't know a lot of people, it takes forever, you can't L-cancel, etc. Melee is more like your family at home: it attracts a unique kind of person that can appreciate the same depth and spirit of what it takes to learn and compete over time as a raw skilled player; a tighter-knit family that learns to appreciate and exploit one another's weaknesses like you'd do to your siblings at home, whilst loving them all the same.
Family reunions are nice and all, but when it's all finished and I've seen every cousin and every aunt that I need to see, I just want to go back home and play some Melee.
But whether we like it or not, they're all family.
* Of course, turning a negative into a positive means two different things: for Brawl supporters, it means hushing up that whiny kid in the classroom through equal representation of both games....whereas for Melee supporters, it's like being forced to hang out with some kid you don't like just to be fair, even though he clearly wasn't raised properly and pissed all over your sand castle at the last beach party.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
K before i start reading i just wanna say
RANDALLZ BACK BITCHES
RANDALLZ BACK BITCHES
Solaris1110
Smash Journeyman
Actually I kind of felt the same way at CT4, but reversed. When I played melee after tons of brawl, it felt distant and not even as enjoyable simply because I've "grown" on brawl to a certain point. I also started brawl right when it came out, so I was on even grounds. That's something I never was able to reach with melee because I started too late. So even though we continue to point out "flaws" between the games to have a suitable excuse for why you play Melee or Brawl, the core reason could just depend which one you grew on first.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
@ Randall
I'd like your post more if it didn't sound like you were belittling the placings some people got. I know for a fact that many people put a lot of time into preparing for this tourney, no matter their status in the Alberta Melee community. Brawl can still be competitive and will still be competitive; that's the sad truth.
I agree with everything you say with the comparison of Brawl to Melee, but some things you say about any old person winning a Brawl tournament are far fetched. In all reality, it is the player's fault for not practicing to become more skilled than the opponent.
Also tripping into a usmash in a 1v1 high percent teams match was the nail in the coffin for Brawl for me LOL. Although I'm fairly moderate about the Melee Brawl dispute I'm always gonna lean toward Melee
EDIT:
But that's just my personal proofs for Brawl being a worse game, it doesn't really prove anything about the community or have anything to do with Randall's argument.
I'd like your post more if it didn't sound like you were belittling the placings some people got. I know for a fact that many people put a lot of time into preparing for this tourney, no matter their status in the Alberta Melee community. Brawl can still be competitive and will still be competitive; that's the sad truth.
I agree with everything you say with the comparison of Brawl to Melee, but some things you say about any old person winning a Brawl tournament are far fetched. In all reality, it is the player's fault for not practicing to become more skilled than the opponent.
Also tripping into a usmash in a 1v1 high percent teams match was the nail in the coffin for Brawl for me LOL. Although I'm fairly moderate about the Melee Brawl dispute I'm always gonna lean toward Melee
EDIT:
Interesting fact about that: I can't play Melee directly after Brawl. I need at least an hour to get used to the game, however the reverse is not true. I can play Brawl no problem whenever. This isn't due to having grown on Brawl either: I haven't.
But that's just my personal proofs for Brawl being a worse game, it doesn't really prove anything about the community or have anything to do with Randall's argument.
Beeble
Smash Journeyman
What time?
Now to address gigantor...
QFT. Objectivity FTW.When reading an argument like this, I think it's important to step outside of the inherent bias associated with the extremists on both ends of the argument, because realistically, most smashers play and enjoy both games. The minute you assume that anyone is on either "side" of the argument, it becomes very easy to misinterpret what they're saying. Which is why Levi didn't flame anybody and then you immediately called him a disrespectful bullshitter and now here we are.
I think in this sense it would then be better to continue to promote melee. While this thread may not be filled with productivity, I think the idea is one we should pursue. If we recognize melee as the more competitive game (as most of the community does), why don't we promote it in the competitive environments such as EVO or other mixed game (not just smash) tournaments, instead of brawl?
Now, in no way does this mean that competitive brawl should go die in a hole. Rather, due to the fact it is new and undeveloped, I think that competitive brawl should be our (the smash community) job to make it into something we can take to larger tournament circuits and say "hey check this out". That's gonna take some time and effort on our part, but I think it's a better option than trying to take it to them now.
I sorta addressed this already, but the people winning aren't coming out of nowhere. Looking at the top 8 of CT4.
1: SuperBoom ($218.70)
Not Unknown
2: LemonLau ($109.35)
Not Unknown
3: Tyson ($36.45)
Not Unknown
4: Killock
Not a prolific melee player, but at the same time certainly not a 6yr old scrub who begged his mom to buy that new mario game.
5: Jarrod
Not Unknown
5: Solaris
Once again not a prolific melee player, but a very good one.
7: Alphicans
Rising melee player, rising brawl player
7: Matrix
A fine melee player, just didn't come out to tournies.
I knew everyone one of these players during melee, and they were all respectable opponents. Sid knew them all too if I'm not mistaken. The thing that seperates these 8 from the rest of the 27 entrants is that they play brawl. I mean they really play it. They know more about the game and have a better understanding, ergo the tourney results. I've seen this argument not only on this occasion and it always seems unfounded. Not to egg anyone on, I'm just curious; are there any tourney results (of a reputable tournament) where it was won by an undeniable scrubby scrub?
Also QFT.
Epic Link.
It's called selling out. If an artist doesn't commit suicide or OD by the age of 30 they tend to do it.
And you lub them. So best strategy: put up with them while they are here, fully well knowing it's not permanent. Play a little brawl, stick to melee, and keep it all peaceful.
I don't think this holds water. I started long after melee came out, carl started after me. Yeah, people have headstarts but there is no finish line, only time to catch up.
I LOVE BRAWL
I must agree. The only "bad habit" that carries with from melee to brawl is lcancelling attempts, which does nothing negative because of the auto buffering and nature of airdodges...
lemonlau36
Smash Journeyman
Hyesss
I like this. I'm not sure how to elaborate more than that.
Solaris1110
Smash Journeyman
I suppose it would depend on the characters you might use. Trying to do double missiles, wavedashes and airdodged grapple beams with samus can really mess up your muscle memory.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
The lower part of page 6... tl; dr.
Beeble
Smash Journeyman
Fix'd. Also, you should really switch your post display to 40.
Edit: @ Jack - I say 11am and at sids. But we'll let him weigh in.
Edit 2:
Thank you. Regarding what I said:
Epic Win.XIF said:
This is the SRK Thread where there is actually good discussion about replacing brawl at evo.
SuPeRbOoM
Smash Master
I might come, ill be pretty tired if I come
lemonlau36
Smash Journeyman
Johnzzzzzzzzz
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
Well again, it's not the players' fault and I don't mean to belittle their placings--in fact, I think the results breakdown makes sense for the most part. It's all just a criticism of the game. For instance, I don't think that Brawl is competitive enough for people to say "no johns" and have it carry the same sort of weight as it does in Melee. Because that's supposed to mean that you have no excuse for losing a match other than your own lack of skill, which just isn't the case in an awful lot of Brawl matches. That game legitimizes johns--which is contrary to the hardened competitive philosophy that has grown out of Melee.
I'm not "at war" with Brawl and Brawl players and by now, I'd never dream of hosting a tournament that didn't have some Brawl events. I recognize the value in supporting it, but it creates an interesting juxtaposition when the game has become so disappointingly easy. I don't really believe that any old person will waltz in and win tournaments all the time (maybe never), but I don't imagine the game will be developed enough that you'll be able to 10-stock a "noob" a few years down the road like you can in Melee if you really know what you're doing. You just can't really show someone the same kind of punishing domination in victory. So yeah, there will be ranked players and there will be people who are better than others, but the spread between players is much smaller and never will you be able to beat someone so badly and so decisively as you can in the more competitive game.
MARIOWNAGE
Smash Lord
I played brawl on thursday and had fun.
**** your tournament rules, items, whacky stages, and ffa is the only possible way for me to have fun with that game.
**** your tournament rules, items, whacky stages, and ffa is the only possible way for me to have fun with that game.
Beeble
Smash Journeyman
Boy do I have a tournament for you.
And random supporting evidence for randall (or against power rankings?): Vagrantlibertine, yes, THE Vagrantlibertine, placed ahead of magnum, myself and kithkin, all of whom are on the new PR, and were on the melee one as well. I think that is definately supporting evidence for scrubs walking into a brawl tourney and fairing better then one would expect.
FalseFalco
Smash Master
except that vagrant libertine is the best in canada
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Rofl, Carl just owned the thread
MARIOWNAGE
Smash Lord
Putting something like that into a tournament would kill it for me, not enough people can turn things like a big tournament into a huge joke like Parker and I can.
CT3 losers bracket with parka ftw
CT3 losers bracket with parka ftw
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
Duh. Who isn't?
Beeble
Smash Journeyman
Vids! Where Are They?!?
wtf @ auto-uncaps
wtf @ auto-uncaps
nitro-blazer
Smash Lord
You ARE the Roy forums.
Spin-Dash
Smash Journeyman
I want some Triple Falcon Punch. Plz. :[
FalseFalco
Smash Master
Yeah sorry guys it's fathers day, vids are not happening today.
They will come, I promise.
They will come, I promise.
Beeble
Smash Journeyman
And a promise from Carl is always delivered upon.
This message payed for by Cral for Prez.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Fixed. You can always count on Carl!
nuff said
Alphicans
Smash Hero
lol early thread quotes ftw
Levi, smashboards wouldn't be the same without you.
x After Dawn x
Smash Master
Lucario makes everybody feel uncomfortable (except for the furries).
Randall00
Propitious Plumber
Watchthepowerofaura
EDIT: It seems that Faceboards won't let me type that in all capital letters. The bastards, what are they doing!?!
WATCHTHEPOWEROFAURA
EDIT 2: Oh sure, it worked THAT time.
THE AURA IS MINE!
EDIT: It seems that Faceboards won't let me type that in all capital letters. The bastards, what are they doing!?!
WATCHTHEPOWEROFAURA
EDIT 2: Oh sure, it worked THAT time.
THE AURA IS MINE!