Critique My Roy, Please

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Hi everyone!

First of all, I don't want to be a nuisance but since it's been so quiet on these boards lately I though I could link my videos here and hear your opinions about my Roy.

I've been playing melee for years, but it was this summer when I finally got a chance to play against other smashers (meaning ppl who can actually play). So yeah I know I'm not very good.
Even though I use Roy the most when I play I consider him as my second, while my main (from the very beginning) has been Link. Despite this, however I've noticed that I've started doing better with Roy lately than with any other character in most matchups 'cos I've been using him so much.
The guy I'm playing against is better than me and he has been playing for more time. But anyways, here are the sets:

Novi (Roy) vs. S3RO (Marth/Sheik) [My best set] Set 1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIaid1YU6h8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8JXiqQy2ok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wI_yeBz2SI

Novi (Roy) vs. S3RO (Sheik) Set 2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBiggU73jkE&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjtBC94PZxI&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QH441bJdIdA&feature=channel_page

Novi (Roy/Link) vs. S3RO (Marth) Set 3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9UoV6bD6OI&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZClDAbwplU&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0IH_4EDRgQ&feature=channel_page (I'm using Link on this one)

Any type of feedback is welcome Thank you in advance!

Ps. Roy sucks but he's fun to use lol

 

[Nø Ca$h]

your not as bad as you think you are. i think you are a little better than s3ro. well, i only saw the first two matches, but your not that bad.

you remind me of myself a few months ago, but now i use marth. and im better now. i still need to get better though.

 

[vZakat]

I watched the first two sets so I think I have an idea of your play style.

General Stuff
It seems to me that you tend to roll whenever someone applies pressure to your shield. It didn't get you very punished here but a better player could really capitalize on that.

I didn't notice until that last vid I watched but it looked like you weren't jump canceling your grabs. That's something you need to start doing.

If you're getting tech chased you can try mixing things up by not teching at all. After hitting the floor you can then get up how you want. Don't do that a lot just enough to mix up things a bit.

Roy Specific Stuff
You follow up dtilt with nair a lot. That's not necessarily bad but there are situations where using fair would be better. Fair more easily leads to grabs and more fairs which can prolong your combos. You should experiment with the two and see when it's better to use each of them.

Don't use side-b so much when you're recovering. There where many instances where you could have gotten back but since you used side-b too much you ended up falling. I'll probably get some grief from other players for saying this but in my opinion you should only use side-b ONCE when recovering. If the side-b doesn't have that "floaty" quality like the first one does it only hinders your recovery. Some people don't believe this but I think it's true.

Well that's all the major stuff I noticed. You have a decent Roy by the way. Some good stuff is there.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Thx!

your not as bad as you think you are. i think you are a little better than s3ro. well, i only saw the first two matches, but your not that bad.

you remind me of myself a few months ago, but now i use marth. and im better now. i still need to get better though.

Thanks! The first set might be a bit misleading, in general s3ro wins the great majority of our matches though sometimes it's really close. But he is a better player than I am, maybe not by too far but still. I'm planning to keep using Roy also in future so expect better stuff in the future

I watched the first two sets so I think I have an idea of your play style.

General Stuff
It seems to me that you tend to roll whenever someone applies pressure to your shield. It didn't get you very punished here but a better player could really capitalize on that.

I didn't notice until that last vid I watched but it looked like you weren't jump canceling your grabs. That's something you need to start doing.

If you're getting tech chased you can try mixing things up by not teching at all. After hitting the floor you can then get up how you want. Don't do that a lot just enough to mix up things a bit.

Roy Specific Stuff
You follow up dtilt with nair a lot. That's not necessarily bad but there are situations where using fair would be better. Fair more easily leads to grabs and more fairs which can prolong your combos. You should experiment with the two and see when it's better to use each of them.

Don't use side-b so much when you're recovering. There where many instances where you could have gotten back but since you used side-b too much you ended up falling. I'll probably get some grief from other players for saying this but in my opinion you should only use side-b ONCE when recovering. If the side-b doesn't have that "floaty" quality like the first one does it only hinders your recovery. Some people don't believe this but I think it's true.

Well that's all the major stuff I noticed. You have a decent Roy by the way. Some good stuff is there.

The rolling thing is very true, I haven't even thought about it before, so are you suggesting I should use backwards wavedash out of shield instead? I was playing against this Falco main and I couldn't get past the laser to get grabs until I started using waveshield out of shield to grab, I guess I should start using it more overall.

Jump canceling, is something I need to master, I really intend to use it always but I sorta tend to miss it often :S It's partially because I originally started jump canceling with the control stick and just recently switched it to the x-button, but yeah, gotta practice that. Thanks for the tech chase tip, I'm gonna try it

Hmm, I don't really use fair, though it's really good when sweetspotted into fsmash but I highly prefer nair and uair, perhaps I should start using it more too, I just tend to get punished for using fair, especially against Marth (he fairs back or some ****).

Wow, I never realized the recovery thing, I'm not very good at DI'ing since I haven't played against ppl too much but I really need to work on my recovery, I tend to side-b alot

But hey thanks alot for the feedback! Appreciated and keep it coming.

 

[ike_love]

Zakat pretty much hit most of it on the head. Some defensive and recovering choises were a bit repetative, but the more people you play...you'll learn through experience.

Also you seemed a little dtilt happy, even though that's roy's best move. Learn to space your pokes a little better. Even though roy's blade is strong on the inside, that doesn't mean that you have to be right on them to him them with the strong part of the blade. If you miss, you don't have to spam it until it hits. You can do pretty much anything...I recommend learning to wavedash out of dtilt. If you need some visual examples, watch some of ninjalink's or sethon's roy vids, I may get around to finding a good one in a sec. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR7Ck-pNjro There's many more, but there were some good examples in this.

Since I mentioned wavedashing, I noticed that you hardly ever approached with a Wavedash, it seemed that everytime you used it, it was to retreat. Also your dash-dance doesn't have to be so fast. Try slowing down your dash-dance and mixing your wave-dash, forwards and backwards, into different parts of your dash-dance and full-run. I believe that you will start to notice more possibilities open up. Also learn to wavedash out of your shield, that is sometimes very helpful in the marth match-up!

One other thing, if your opponent is shielding you DED, and you decide to keep it going...two things. 1)Again you don't have to be right up on them to hit them with the sweetspot. So learn to space them move out a little better, not only when they're shielding, but just in general. Again, better spacing comes with experience and a variety of opponents. So just try to keep it in the back of your mind. 2) Also if you continue the DED while they're shielding, use the down hit on the third part, it's better for attacking they're sheild, and roy kind of takes a step back when he's done, so it's not as easy to get grabbed.

I think all-in-all, you're well on your way. Just try to find a variety of people to play with, so you're style doesn't get stagnent. Plus the more you get wooped by better people, more you learn, right. Also, for some reason, I would be interested in seeing what Exarch has to say about your Roy, if you're listening exarch.

Edit: also, i just remembered! Zakat mentioned using Fair as opposed to neutral in order to set more stuff up. Uair is also an excellent set up move. It all depends on the situation. Btw, thnx for the post, hopefully we can get some of the players in the board to wake-up and offer some useful advise =D

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Thanks again I'll try to use more wd dtilt as an approach and space better. The problem here is however that there's no one to play against Sigh, I guess I have to travel all the way to Barcelona someday to play some ppl. Roy's coool

 

[exarch]

Lol Monster Post. I always get carried away.

*snip*

Name searching for the win lol. I only do it less than once a week, convenient that it happened so soon after this post.

+10 for the tag lol.

For your references, I watched the first 3, and the first one of the next two sets.

Spotdodge generally isn't going to get you too far against Marth/anyone, simply because it lasts too long. Rolling can be a problem too, but rather than saying you need to fix it, I go with if it's working, go with it. If you start being consistently punished for it, that's when you need to not have it be a habit enough to where you can stop. Plus, many characters literally CAN'T punish Roy's roll away: they're not fast enough.

Good empty jump fakes in the first match.

Fair will combo if you wait to use it till you're almost back on the ground. Which will stop Marth from fairing you after yours.

I'd personally like to see you be a lot more aggressive against Marth when edgeguarding. If he uses his 2nd jump early, all you have to do is tap him back out over the level (with something as weak as an aerial neutral b) then edgehog/marthguard him.

Be careful about trying to land on or near marth after getting knocked into the air, ESPECIALLY when you've already used your 2nd jump. It's a really bad idea. Just try to get back to the ground.

And don't be afraid to go for the edge when recovering. Roy's edgegame is rather good, (and extends far beyond just the simple standup which seems to be your favorite.)

Edgehog Edgehog Edgehog against Sheik! Then get/roll up and Fsmash her back off. To get to the edge faster, run towards SH and overb back the other direction. You'll be able to grab the edge afterwards if you don't land on the stage. (If you misspace, you can WL to cover the remaining distance.)

You can do a lot of damage from pummels during grabs when the opponent is at 150+. Also uthrow will kill. Eventually. lol

Also for tech chases, remember Roy's standup takes the least amount of time, and therefore is the hardest to read/techchase. A good way to fake people/sheiks out of tech chases is to rolling tech once or twice then standing tech the second or third time. Throws off their timing.

----------------
Overall, you've got the basics down well. Now it only amounts to apply them at the right time. That will come as you play more, (and can come from asking for help.) Overall just experiment a lot, and if something works, do it again or try to elaborate on it.

As for Roy-Marth since you seem to play that frequently, I personally see being able to beat Marth as basically amounting to knowing how to hit him.
Marth has 3 basic things he can do.

• Run up on the ground with a Fsmash/Grab/DashAttack--To hit him when he does these things, you can shield punish him or roll towards him. Of course try to find other ways too.
• SH Double Fairs--If he does it approaching, you can WD back and fsmash him in between these (you did this in one of the videos), or if he's spacing them, you should be able to WD forward and fsmash/dtilt/SG or SOMETHING (just straight up dash attack?). Again, look for other ways to get inside.
• FH Double Fairs--You can't really punish after he lands (with SH ones you can mess his spacing up by running in and shielding,) so you have to get him in between the first and the second. If you run up and shield the first one, you should be able to aerial out of shield to hit him. You also might be able to nair through in between the first and second ones.

I mention this because now that I think about it, this is a verrry basic idea for how I approach the peach vs marth matchup. If I can do any of her responses (not the same as Roy's) on reaction, I should be able to consistently HIT Marth. And getting inside is half the battle against him. Maybe this approach doesn't work as well with Roy, but ever since adopting this with Peach, I've eaten Marths up with the princess.

Spoiler

I'm a peach main in case you don't know...I should go post this in the Roy vs Marth thread.

But to reiterate, you're doing a ton of stuff right. And with just a bit more time, you'll start doing more of it well too.

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Wow, thanks Exarch for the massive post

 

[Nø Ca$h]

exarch is back into smash? well, thats what the massive post implies.

 

[ike_love]

*snip*

I just wanted to see what you had to say, because his style seemed to be in the workings of a future exarch-type roy style. And great massive post btw.

 

[ohgodx]

I'm watching the first couple
you need to be more mobile on the ground, there's a lot of instances where you're just standing there; I understand it's anticipation of a sort, but my belief is that Roy's strength is on his feet. Dash dancing closer and farther away from your opponent accordingly is always going to be preferrable over standing or preparing to crouch-cancel

as a lot of people already spotted, you follow d-tilt with n-air a lot, but I'd advise trying to warm up to using f-air or even u-air instead. They have roughly the same damage, but with much less lag, a more direct aiming schema, and less knockback so you can hopefully be able to attempt another d-tilt when and if they hit the ground again. Generally f-air and u-air, I consider to be much safer for both comboing and defense mechanisms

when you're off the stage and recovering, you use side-b too rapidly; at the rate you're using it, your overall air-time is increased, but your horizontal recovery distance is badly stunted

this part, I don't want to be rude
but I absolutely hate Roy players who edgeguard this way, it's a complete waste of his capabilities.
instead of edgehogging, you REALLY ought to try mastering spacing for charging the flare blade.
try to imagine Roy's height standing up as one side of a square, and the distance between his feet and where the opponent can grab the edge is another side.
if you're in the correct spot, you can charge flare blade to your heart's content, and be out of reach of any up-b recoveries hitting you
or, in that same exact spot, face away from the edge and hit your opponent with a fsmash as they're coming back; what this does is the facing away from the edge further protects you from up-b attacks while recovering (because he leans forward slightly, which changed his hit-box), and also allows you to sweet spot the fsmash perfectly

the thing I do like though, is your ability to watch your opponent roll or tech on the ground and hit them with a fsmash or a d-tilt most of the time, which is priceless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dq244s9hYs

watch this match, please disregard how old it is
Neo demonstrates perfect spacing for the flare blade edgeguard in several spots, as well as the fsmash edgeguard, the best example being at approximately 1:46

edgeguarding with Roy's attacks is infinitely more versatile and effective than edgehogging

 

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

Wow, some really good pointers there ohgodx, thanks a bunch ^^ Yeah, I haven't really gotten to ledgeuarding with Roy, the other guy I play against in these matches actually commented on this like full jumping and chargin' fblade instead of always edgehoggin'

 

[ike_love]

Just don't count out edge-hogging. this forces your opponent to LAND on the stage, giving you time to get back up and do pretty much whatever you want. Also, most characters can sweetspot the ledge without getting hit. The reason Husband kept getting hit was because, it's much harder to sweetspot on BF than any other stage, so this makes edge-guarding much easier. But you should mix-up your edge game. I personally like flare-blade best because of less lag, both before and after, than other options.

Also, maybe not so much against marth or even shiek for that matter, don't be scared to get out over the edge and try stuff. Just make sure that getting back to the ledge is more important than hitting the opponent. And hey, if you kill your-self trying something new two things happen. you learn from the mistake and either tweek the technique ( oh snap, that rhymes ) or throw it away. Number two, and more importantly, you have an extra jon at the end of the match... ALWAYS useful when playing with Roy.

 

[ohgodx]

as Ike Love says
don't eliminate edgehogging, just ease up on it, especially when your opponent is still at low percent
edgehogging is for mid - high percent, where the opponent is forced to recover purely the distance
edgeguarding with flare blade and f-smash as I described is best used for low percent kills

also as Ike Love says
jumping out off the stage while edgeguarding is a very useful attack as well
it's difficult to deal with
the knockback happens when the opponent is already off the stage, struggling to recover
- most important - while airborne, the flare blade has a larger swing; it hits below Roy as well
it's not difficult for you to return to the stage after you launch the flare blade, but it is always more important to make sure you will be able to recover, even if you miss hitting the opponent with the flare blade

you can also check out vids of Reed if you like, I learned a lot from watching his style back in the day

 

[Zeonix]

Replace rolling with wavedashing. Instead of going into shield and then side dodgeing, just shield grab. It annoys me how some players play Roy but there is nothing wrong with that, you are playing him the "right" way on some level. My Roy is just a lot more aggressive and fast then most, even tho Roy doesn't need to be to win.

 

[ike_love]

Replace rolling with wavedashing. Instead of going into shield and then side dodgeing, just shield grab. It annoys me how some players play Roy but there is nothing wrong with that, you are playing him the "right" way on some level. My Roy is just a lot more aggressive and fast then most, even tho Roy doesn't need to be to win.

Being aggressive can be sexy, even scary...when all your attacks are working. But an OVERLY-aggressive roy can mean bad news if the opponent is ready for it. And when I say "overly", what I really mean is just rushing in without an afterthought as what to do if plan A doesn't work. You can can still be pretty aggressive though, as long as you know how to get back out if it looks like the "combo"-breaker or whatever is coming. As a rule of thumb, not getting hit should take priority over getting the next attack off. However there are many situations where it's worth the risk to attempt something off-the-wall. Distinguishing between the two is the mark of a good player.