Critique Lumpy's Fox (against marth)

[LumpyCPU...]

i saw a thread about this match up and i plan on reading that right now, but i'd still like some more personal critiquing.

we recorded a bunch more but i uploaded one from each neutral.
i also chose matches where i thought he was playing really well.

FoD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht3ILTHo7bE

FD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enp_rDiQXVI

BF
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftcn8GLdQeM

YS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZZuc0szn3A

DL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRF_zGsmALA

PS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8iIQR8m_s4


dreamland is the only stage i like this match up on and i was wondering if you guys had any tips on improving my platform camping. lol

also, i know i make a lot of technical errors (i.e. missed Lcancels or terrlbe bair spacing on shield).

 

[Roman.]

i only watched game 1 on fod due to the utter dislike of the music but...

all around you need to play the game more to learn which decisions are safe and which aren't

but the biggest "specific" advice i can give you is working on your ledge game

you seem to struggle to do anything productive on the ledge and fox is super dangerous there so definitely perfect that aspect asap

 

[JPOBS]

I watched them all
first i'll start by saying that you need to get more technically consistent. You seem more than capable of doing all the fox things, i even saw a few doubleshine->platform waveland->fallthrough bair, and your between stock showoffs show you have the skill. However, you have long lapses of tech skill productivity. You would accidentally shorthop airdodge where you mean to wavedash. Accidentally shielding after l-cancels, just things that make your play at times sluggish and cost you stocks.

You need to waveshine->grab much more. Its fox's B&B vs marth. Sometimes you shine and then wavedash straight in place. Or waveshine->ftilt, or you would shine him while he's behind you, but waveshien forward or other silly things that dont work or easily beatable. You almost never combo'd shines into grabs and you should do it much more

I feel like you also dash attack far too much. theres a time and a place for everything, namely dash attack is good when he's at high% and you can sneak under him while he's landing from a jump and combo into upsmash. but you do it into his sheild (death), or as a techchase and stuff when there are much better options.

I also echo Roman's satement that yur productivity from the ledge is very poor. Defensively (you're on the ledge), I think you could use a lot more variety in how you choose to get back on. your go-to option was ledgehop dair, good option at times, but needs more mixups. phantasm from the ledge onto the stage/edgecancel on platforms more, waveland to upper platforms, waveland directly to the stage etc

Offensively, you're edgeguarding needs tons of work. You drop way to many edgeguards becase you almost always try to runoff shine him. This is a terrible idea vs marth, his b-up is too quick and you got hit by it WAY too much and then the tables turn and you end up getting edguarded to death. Instead, try to use your invicibility frames from te ledge much more. Work with invincible ledgehop bairs/shine bairs to hit him out of his B-up. when you cant set all of that up, take the ledge, force him to recover onstage and do an appropriate punish. I saw you attempt a few marth killers but mostly to no avail because he would often just save his DJ and regrab or land on stage.
edgeguarding marth is a complicated affair that you have to assess quickly so just work on that more.

hope this helps.

 

[Lovage]

i watched two matches.

i think your general gameplan for the matchup is solid and you're not making any glaring tactical errors, but if you tighten up a lot of smaller things you'll do way way better. edit: actually u probably have bad tactical errors like trying to platform camp too much/incorrectly but idk what to say about that

the biggest thing i noticed is that you seem really uncomfortable from the ledge. to effectively fight characters like marth and sheik you have to be as comfortable on the ledge as you are on the stage. a lot of times when you smacked marth off the stage with a bair, you would awkwardly stand near the edge, unsure about what to do, sometimes going for a lightshield, sometimes trying to CC his up+b or something.

i think it would be worth it to experiement with grabbing the ledge the moment you knock him off, and abuse your ledge invincibility and ledgehop to get a shine on him or bairs.

technical things to practice to increase your confidence on the ledge:
-turnaround waveshine, one of the fastest and most consistent ways to grab the edge quickly against any character
-shine firefox stall. use this to keep refreshing your invincibility, so if he ever tries to fair you off the ledge, you can shine him because u were invincible.
-fast waveland onto the stage. a really good technique for getting back on the stage after you recover, when you get onto the edge, shine firefox once or twice to maybe bait out a dumb fsmash from him, then mixup doing a waveland onto the stage or an illusion onto the stage. it sounds dumb but it's actually a really effective mixup against most marths
-perfect ledgehop bairs. learn how to time your invincibility with your ledgehop bairs so you can kill him during his up+b, and if you can't hit him during his up+b, learn how to ledgehop far enough to bair him on the stage while he's still in landing lag

hope that helps
if u have more questions message me lingbling6

 

[LumpyCPU...]

thanks for the tips guys.

i'm mostly hearing that my tech skill is very inconsistent (which i know) and my recovery and edge guarding suck.
sounds about right to me. to be honest, i learned more from watching the vids myself than i prolly could from someone's advice. i just make too many mistakes.

my waveshining isn't consistently far enough for me to go for the grab afterward. i didn't realize how much this was holding me back. my edge guarding usually isn't that bad, but i still benefit from your ideas.

thanks again. i really appreciate it.
feel free to give me more advice. haha i'll prolly upload some more when i'm playing better to be like "LOOK I IMPROVED" but yeah.


p.s. i started dash attacking him a lot out of habit (eww) because i couldn't think of a way to beat his dash dancing and i don't feel like nair can get as far as dash attack. it just sucks that i wiff so much.

 

[Roman.]

by ledge game, that doesn't only mean edgeguarding

all of what lovage said is good but also when you're on the ledge and marth is on the stage, you seem to struggle to safely get on

also, waveshine -> grab against marth isn't just that, you actually need to do a run + jc grab after the waveshine real quick to get the extra distance

i'm sure if you perfectly waveshine or marth DI's the shine toward you, you won't need to run... also having momentum such as run -> shine will also eliminate running

 

[LumpyCPU...]

yeah. playing kfc's marth made me afraid to go for waveshine grab because i would try to dash jc grab but i think he sdi's the shine away or something or i'm too slow but he would always get out of it

 

[JPOBS]

na, waveshine->run->grab is a combo as long as you're fast enough, just work on it

 

[LumpyCPU...]

yeah, i got this.

i think this thread can be closed now.

i'll upload some more from another day when i fix all my main issues.

 

[RaynEX]

p.s. i started dash attacking him a lot out of habit (eww) because i couldn't think of a way to beat his dash dancing and i don't feel like nair can get as far as dash attack. it just sucks that i wiff so much.

Dashdance back. IMO Fox is one of the only characters that can match Marth in that aspect. His initial dash is long enough for you to vary the lengths of your approach. Moving back or forward during DDs to get close enough to scare him into fairing. Once he does that, you should be able to grab pretty reliably.

Overshooting works too, but its alot more risky. Use distance to your advantage, and watch Marth's DD camp patterns. Does he immediately run away when you get near, or does he intercept your approach with an attack? Does he prefer to stay on the ground and space himself to punish approach with grab, or does he like getting up on platforms?

Once you figure out when he decides to DD away from you, you can start placing your nairs, dash attacks and grabs so that they cover the space behind him. Aim for where he's going, not for where he is. Scouting his defensive play for signs of predictability is always the first step though. Trying to approach a DDing Marth on a hunch is never a good idea.

Two more things. Laser is your friend, and Marth can't catch you on platforms on the big stages. Once he tries to jump and chase your platform movement on Dreamland, Battlefield or Stadium...avoid that **** and hit him for commiting to that jump. Its alot easier to throw out hits at Marth while he's floating in the air. The MU is assloads harder when he has the ground to slide around on.

Good luck!

 

[LumpyCPU...]

thanks. that was pretty detailed.

i never thought dding him back was a great idea.
i guess i was intimidated.
my platform game is gonna be noticeably better next time i upload vids.

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

good stuff