CPU Advancements

[buddy9246]

I have a friend that is better than me and I don't really have a good way to train (except my bro which HATES smash), and the computers i play against suck. So I've been thinking that maybe there could be someway to increase computers or decrease abilities.

Maybe You can insert abilities that they do often. Ex. short hop, SHFFL, etc. they would do those moves more often and you can learn to benefit from them

Increase the level. who thinks level 9 isn't advanced enough?

Create your own computer. Make him just the perfect training partner for you.

Thats all I got for now.

 

[shadenexus18]

True, very true. It's sad that I have to hone my skills to it's fullest potential by constantly going on Cruel Melee or fighting 3 computers at once on Vs. mode. (and yet they still suck) Yes, I would like to see if the A.I. for Brawl is actually a challenge this time around. If not, then I'm playing online immediately.

I think they made a thread about this a while ago........ah who cares! The last thing I'm trying to do is impress a moderator. Great thread.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Plausable,yet this theory is impossible to grasp.

Inorder for you to have custom built A.I.,the system that the program is running on must have a secondary storage device made specifically for the ability to record specific movement.Not to mention,programing A.I. is a very difficult task.

Sorry,but if we get stupid A.I. We have to stick with it.

>: (

 

[RVD_fan]

Maybe they could have a percentage level for the comp lvl. Like 1-100.

 

[AltF4]

It all depends on how much time they spend into writing the AI scripts for Brawl. Trust me, it certainly is possible to make like an AI character that you can save, and it would learn from matches it plays in and tries to adapt. But such a thing would require a lot of work.

Fact is, everyone on the development team (especially sakurai) knows that Brawl will be played primarily in a multiplayer fashion, and it's just not worth the time, effort, and money to spend much time on AI.

Expect the Comps to be better, but not different. Like, they might make it to an equivalent of a lvl 15 or something. But they'll still be predictable, they'll still do repetitive moves, and they'll never learn from mistakes. Sorry.

 

[buddy9246]

Although it would be better if they could increase their skill level. Maybe they can have imitations

Like they can have Marth play like Ken. and C.Falcon like Isai.

Awe nvm, that couldn't work.

EDIT:

Fact is, everyone on the development team (especially sakurai) knows that Brawl will be played primarily in a multiplayer fashion, and it's just not worth the time, effort, and money to spend much time on AI.

Who is Sakurai btw? I hear alot of different Nintendo creator names.

 

[RVD_fan]

O he's just the guy who's MAKING SUPER SMASH BROS BRAWL!

 

[buddy9246]

I like him already.

 

[Metroid_01]

There will certainly be advancements in the AI from one game to another. There may not be a huge change, but I think that given the 'reflexes' of the computers, we may find them performing more advances tricks and (hopefully) actually using smash attacks this time.

 

[buddy9246]

Wow, I just realized that computers don't use smash attacks. lol. no wonder its so easy.

 

[buddy9246]

How about instead:

Each character gets their own abilities

Ex. Fox gets shine blind, waveshine, etc
Yoshi djc
etc

And all you have to do is select training mode, select the character, then select the techniques you want to train against? almost like a target dummy

 

[Andromeda]

Aaargh! I can't read the blue text from my Wii! >.<

But, yeah, I hope that the CPU's will be better than they was in Melee so I can get some proper training. I have no frinds to train with so I've had a hard time training in Melee.

 

[FreakoFreako]

I think Learning CPU would be awesome.. But it'd be near pointless with online, though... I mean, if you can play online, why play offline? It's more fun playing with people. I can imagine playing only Online/Multiplayer games on Brawl. Excluding 1P Mode cause I want to unlock all chars lol.

 

[0rion]

I think Learning CPU would be awesome.. But it'd be near pointless with online, though... I mean, if you can play online, why play offline? It's more fun playing with people. I can imagine playing only Online/Multiplayer games on Brawl. Excluding 1P Mode cause I want to unlock all chars lol.

Okay, but don't you want to dominate when you burst into the online world of Brawl? Seriously, you don't want to get your trash handed to you cause they honed there skillz before they got online. I would practice extensively with a rival for a couple of days so that you can get a feel for Brawl; if it plays different from Melee anyway.

So hold your horses lil hommie. Halleluyiah Holla Back cuz!

 

[FreakoFreako]

Okay, but don't you want to dominate when you burst into the online world of Brawl? Seriously, you don't want to get your trash handed to you cause they honed there skillz before they got online. I would practice extensively with a rival for a couple of days so that you can get a feel for Brawl; if it plays different from Melee anyway.

So hold your horses lil hommie. Halleluyiah Holla Back cuz!

lol, that's a nice point. Didn't think of it that way. But knowing myself, I'll probably get owned. Go offline, go into training mode.. Practice some moves/combos. Go against CPU a bit, then return to Online.

So I guess CPU does matter more than I thought. Well, I'll prefer if they have good AI, but I won't cry over it.

 

[Hoboman725]

I think It'd be cool if there were a menu that you could pick out specific attacks that the computer would mainly use so you can practice against certain moves to your heart's content. I don't think this is particularly likely, but it would be a neat addition nonetheless.

 

[Vampirekain]

I personally never liked CPU battles (Except when i first started smash years ago) When you play with a friend you learn from your mistakes and you do well not to repeat them! In my opinion the CPU characters in Brawl will be just as dumb as they were in the original and the melee...

 

[ssbmaster2007]

I imagine...we can only hope they'll be at least a bit more bright, in Melee, they pretty much just keep trying to grab you, just continuously roll dodge and hit them, that's all, and that's lame.

But I like winning anyways, which right now is pretty easy (not to brag). Lol. I seriously hope that the hardest levels for the computers are actually Hard.

 

[buddy9246]

The only people I can play against are my 2 friends. My brother hates smash with all his heart, my 1 friend doesn't play smash the whole time, and my other friend likes other games as well. I don't get to practice alot so it would be nice to see computer players that can actually -- how do I put this.... oh yeah --fight!

 

[shadenexus18]

Okay, but don't you want to dominate when you burst into the online world of Brawl? Seriously, you don't want to get your trash handed to you cause they honed there skillz before they got online. I would practice extensively with a rival for a couple of days so that you can get a feel for Brawl; if it plays different from Melee anyway.

So hold your horses lil hommie. Halleluyiah Holla Back cuz!

Brother! Where art thou?

Anyway, when we finally get Brawl Alphonso, lets straight up kill the online opposition (No Mercy!), but you're right. Lets do some extensive training first.

 

[WHO?AreYou]

The problem with computers is that they could never acurrately represent the way a person actually plays. Computers have "perfect" timing (notice all the techs?) plus, at least in melee, they are limited to the scripts that they were programmed with. Especially with a game like melee, the original gameplay designed by the programmers and the designers was taken to new levels by the players. The discovery of new ways to attack (SHFFL's, Falco bomber, Ken Combos, shining and the like) and new ways to recover (Mario's cape, Marth's >B, Using Gannon's Down-B to reset the jumps) went way beyond anything the developers could have possibly had in mind. They never could have foreseen the characters being used in the ways they are now.
But there could be a way to fix this problem. With WiiConnect24, you could have updates for Brawl's CPUs. The designers, if so motivated to improve AI, could create new scripts based on discovered techniques and using WiiConnect24 could allow users to download newer improved AI's for the computers.
Imagine having computers SHFFL (something that unlike Washdashing, doesn't abuse the game's physics), or trying to shine you. It would take a dedicated team to keep coming out with updates for all the characters on a regular basis, but it could make the single player experiance on Brawl all the more awesome.

But with online play, this probably is nothing more than a pipe dream. Why play computers when you can play other players?

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

^^^^^ so true!

if we have computers that shffl, edgehog, edgeguard, shine spike, wavedash, JC grab, and etc. etc. etc. we would have no room for online play,

the cpu in melee are horrible, its like they have no programming whatsoever.
but if the just tweak certain things like not powershielding so much or even grab the edge and not return back to the stage or they DI or they l-cancel or they dont spam the jab so much(I noticed their favorite move is the A,A,A combo!!!) the game would be more human like and not like a program that repeats itself!

if they dont have a smarter CPU then they can add the Advanced Techniques vid like they have the basic skills vid, so players can learn them and then the game will most likely see a more competitive tournament scene!

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

sorry for the double!!!!

 

[Banks]

im not too optimistic on the whole updating cpu over wiiconnect. nintendo seems too ******** about online, on wikipedia it says there will most likely not even be a ranking system. basically if they have online it will probly be a barebones quickmatch type of thing. lets hope im wrong.

 

[Dash_Fox]

What they should do is provide patches for Brawl with A.I. enhancements as techniques come about. Like new edgeguard techniques against certain characters, or movement techniques, new combos, and update how they D.I. certain things like drills or up smashes.

*shrug* just a thought.

 

[KalimariDark]

im not too optimistic on the whole updating cpu over wiiconnect. nintendo seems too ******** about online, on wikipedia it says there will most likely not even be a ranking system. basically if they have online it will probly be a barebones quickmatch type of thing. lets hope im wrong.

Lol, you just mentioned Wikipedia. If you search this board, you can probably find the original post where someone pointed to the interview with whatever head of Nintendo said that thing about the ranking system. But the likely-hood that online will dissapoint is unfortunately high.
Point: Don't referrence Wikipedia on SWF. It was said here first.

 

[Dracandros]

First post here. Trust me though, I've got lots to add.

Do you guys know how to design an AI or computer for a game? You have to base it off of the skills of somebody, even if it isn't yourself. Sometimes, you can simply follow the rules like you can in a game of Blackjack; that's not too hard. Now take a game like Battleship for example: now what do you do? You have to design it with something in mind. More often than not, if you don't use somebody else's code, you're going to have to analyze yourself and your playstyle. That's one more reason why Sora asked good players to help them design this game.

Having a computer just use advanced skills left and right is not a good idea at all. It is an awful way to teach. You might as well throw the kitchen sink at them while you're at it. A better idea would be to make those advanced techniques subtle in the AI --- so that it blends in with the other moves.

There are three main advantages to this. First, the player doesn't HAVE to learn it in order to win on that difficulty level, but it will stand out and will allow the player to learn it at their own pace. Second, it promotes the use of mind games and tricks, which is the only real reason why many advanced techniques are useful in the first place. Big moves =/= expert, mental strength and practice == expert. Finally, it allows people who don't have the ability to play online (or don't want to play online) the ability to have fun playing against a computer that offers a lot of replayability.

If you want to play online, then that's awesome. It sells games and it rocks. Keep in mind that a nice learning curve teaches beginners properly and gets more people to go into tournaments with better skills and tricks. Keep in mind that replayability is usually just as important as graphics and gameplay.

Melee's computers and level design are awful. Melee's replayability is either bad or awesome, depending on how you look at it. With a good AI, Brawl's replayability would probably become heavenly.

 

[Razgriz]

I don't care what becomes of the computers. Sakurai could remove them from the game and I wouldn't care. There is no point to playing smash without friends to play with. Computers are lame as hell, and no matter how much programming you put into them, they will always be predictable and lame.

 

[Wrath`]

I have a friend that is better than me and I don't really have a good way to train (except my bro which HATES smash), and the computers i play against suck. So I've been thinking that maybe there could be someway to increase computers or decrease abilities.

Maybe You can insert abilities that they do often. Ex. short hop, SHFFL, etc. they would do those moves more often and you can learn to benefit from them

Increase the level. who thinks level 9 isn't advanced enough?

Create your own computer. Make him just the perfect training partner for you.

Thats all I got for now.

am i that friend?

Yes and you should be able to chose thee type of play,like defensive,balenced,relentless,combo king

 

[x4FoSho4x]

I don't care what becomes of the computers. Sakurai could remove them from the game and I wouldn't care. There is no point to playing smash without friends to play with. Computers are lame as hell, and no matter how much programming you put into them, they will always be predictable and lame.

thats exactly how i feel about this subject. CPU's don't matter really. People to play against is whats worth playing for. Sure you will be able to practice against them at you own home, but only to a certain extent. And besides id much rather have the developers dedicate them selfs to online play instead of making the AI better.

 

[x4FoSho4x]

sorry for the double post. lol.

 

[buddy9246]

Its ok, your sig makes up for it. Brighten the 40 thread page alittle

 

[AceMoney]

I got 1 word for ya. Tekken.

In Tekken 5: Dark ressurection. The cpus not only whoop your ***, but they learn and adapt. You can save what is called ghost data and they will duplicate certain combos and moves like the players themselves use. I went to an arcade and played this game and was overwhelmed by this one character that spammed the same cheap move over and over again. I complained about it and kept trying only to get owned again and again. Now, this hopefully won't happen in brawl's cpus but the point is, it is possible to have ais that learn, or rather take real live players' play styles. For instance, say you want a challenge when playing single player at home, it's possible to download Ken's Marth and play him at your leisure since all it will do is replay certain combos and techniques that Ken uses. Now, the question arises of a loop or a camera perfect type of ai. In tekken 5 however, the computer adapts to the situation. It merely calls upon certain combos that the real life person used in a certain situation. So in essence, a computer with Ken's combo set in it will use forward b to recover rather than a failed up b when it's way to far away. While at the same time, it will still use the omnipotent power shielding that only AI can use. Therefore, you won't just be fighting Ken, but perfect Ken. Haha, well if that doesn't sound like Dragon ball Z, I don't know what does. Anyways, Cpu should definitely stay. And it is possible to make really really good Cpus.

Ps: Ken does play marth right? Hahaha

 

[turbo_ja]

Wow, I just realized that computers don't use smash attacks. lol. no wonder its so easy.

are you smoking weed?

 

[Wrath`]

I agree with the peep up top.
What are you on?

The comp does use smash attacks

 

[buddy9246]

*puffs* sorry, I meant charged smash attacks *cough*

 

[Tera253]

they should learn, and the levels should go up to 19.
Also, haveing a 3-on-1 against lv 9 handicapped computer Marths might give you a taste of what Ken was like... back in the day before he became the best there ever was.

~Tera253~

 

[buddy9246]

3-on-1 don't really prove skill because you have 3 computer players that atk. you would normally fight people 1-on-1 or 2-on-2. you wouldn't usually fight 3-on-1 in tourneys so why practice like that? all you will improve in is evading 3 lvl 9 computers, atk 3 lvl 9 computers, and other stuff dealing with lvl 9's. Do human players techniqually fight like that? no. So all you would train at would be beating lvl 9 computers.

^^ can't explain it as well as I think it...

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

What they should do is provide patches for Brawl with A.I. enhancements as techniques come about. Like new edgeguard techniques against certain characters, or movement techniques, new combos, and update how they D.I. certain things like drills or up smashes.

*shrug* just a thought.

That would be cool =P
Then we could all watch as the hacking community figures out how to affect it and create custom AI.

 

[ZeroX982]

I got 1 word for ya. Tekken.

In Tekken 5: Dark ressurection. The cpus not only whoop your ***, but they learn and adapt. You can save what is called ghost data and they will duplicate certain combos and moves like the players themselves use. I went to an arcade and played this game and was overwhelmed by this one character that spammed the same cheap move over and over again. I complained about it and kept trying only to get owned again and again. Now, this hopefully won't happen in brawl's cpus but the point is, it is possible to have ais that learn, or rather take real live players' play styles. For instance, say you want a challenge when playing single player at home, it's possible to download Ken's Marth and play him at your leisure since all it will do is replay certain combos and techniques that Ken uses. Now, the question arises of a loop or a camera perfect type of ai. In tekken 5 however, the computer adapts to the situation. It merely calls upon certain combos that the real life person used in a certain situation. So in essence, a computer with Ken's combo set in it will use forward b to recover rather than a failed up b when it's way to far away. While at the same time, it will still use the omnipotent power shielding that only AI can use. Therefore, you won't just be fighting Ken, but perfect Ken. Haha, well if that doesn't sound like Dragon ball Z, I don't know what does. Anyways, Cpu should definitely stay. And it is possible to make really really good Cpus.

Ps: Ken does play marth right? Hahaha

The only problem I could see with a solution like this, is that if you only play with say one friend, and you save the ghost data and the cpu adapts and changes how it plays according to that data. Well, when you practice against that cpu, you'll be playing against a ghost of your friend (with cpu properties). I'm not too sure if that came across as how I meant for it to be, but basically, if you can only play with one person, then when you play against that cpu, you'll only develop your playing style based off of your friend. Now compared to online, where you are constantly paying attention to the style of how a completely random person plays, the cpu just seems lacking...

Now if the online was advanced, and you could upload/download these ghosts, well then that may be a different story...