Couple Mario related Questions

[Lepricon]

I've always played mario since I first picked up a N64 controller, and I never switched to Luigi cause I thought itd be cool to stay classis. I was relieved to see Mario ranked 5 and Luigi ranked 10.
but...

1) Why is Luigi ranked 10 if he is basically mario with a super charged up-B?

2) How is Mario better than Luigi? Like in what way??

3) How do Mario's (or if Luigi is better, Luigi's) stack up to Pikachu's and Fox's?

Also if you don't mind I just had a couple other questions since I'm new here haha.

4) Why are Samus and Link ranked so low? I used to consider them my alternates.... I guess I'll start with Pikachu...

 

[SheerMadness]

Luigi is very slow both on the ground and in the air. Mario's fireball is way better too. Speed and projectile is the main reason Mario is so much better. Luigi can combo very well but so can every other character in the game so speed makes a huge difference.

 

[dandan]

mario's recovery is way better too, mainly due to his fireballs.

 

[DMoogle]

The tier list is created with a certain level of play in mind. At different levels of play, the tier list may be way off. For example, at low levels of play, I would certainly place Ness at top tier. Anyway, to answer your questions:

1. There are many differences between the brothers besides the up-B. For attacks, their down-B, neutral-B, d-tilt, and dash attack are vastly different. More importantly, Luigi is much more floaty and slippery than Mario.

2. The end result of being more floaty and slippery than Mario is that his approach is much worse.

3. Fox is usually a nightmare with Luigi. Both Fox and Pika have fairly significant advantages over both Mario and Luigi.

4. Samus has more limited combo potential than the rest of the cast, and doesn't have a very good approach (although she has quite good defense). Link is very slow, heavy, and has arguably the worst recovery in the game (the only contender for that title is Ness). He does extremely poorly in close combat when he's under pressure.

 

[Tambor]

You should note, first of all, that this game is very balanced, so you shouldn't really mind about the tier list.
1) and 2): Mario's approach is way better than Luigi's. As others already said, he is less floaty, faster and has a better projectile.
3) Matchup-wise, Fox and Pikachu are better than Mario, but this is only theoretically. Don't take the tier list that seriously: a good <insert character here> can beat any <insert character here>.
4) Samus is low in the list because she is floaty, slow and, most importantly, doesn't have reliable combos to use during a match. I mean, it's not impossible to combo with Samus, it's just kind of rare during a match.
Link is low due to his horrible recovery. Not much else to say here, because Link is strong in all other aspects I think.
Pikachu, on the other hand, has the best recovery of the game.

 

[th3kuzinator]

The tier list is created with a certain level of play in mind. At different levels of play, the tier list may be way off.

I think having a tier list is great and all, but we really have to hammer this point home. Too many scrubs enter smash boards, see pika as top tier, and only play him. IMO this hinders variety and the fun of the game (pika is very boring for me).

As for the mario vs. luigi question, everything said above is correct. Though two high level pros playing would have an advantage with mario, the level of skill designed for the tier list is certainly above average play. One mario trait that I find much more useful that has not been mentioned above is the height of his short hop.

Because it is so short, he can easily do sh dairs to uairs and repeat (my fav mario combo) where as luigis short hop dair will usually miss most of the opponent (albeit dk) unless timed differently which makes his approach much harder to master.

As for recovery, despite popular misconception both of their rising tornadoes raise the same distance (luigi is just taller) which would give mario a significantly better recovery due to his fireball paths.

Besides the upb, and sometimes downb, mario has a much better move set speed and recovery. These combined gives him more opportunities to approach and combo.

However, to stress my point earlier, all luigi has to do is space well and the match is easily his. Never base character selection off the teir list, if anything pick the one who you are most comfortable with (yes even if it is link vs pika).

 

[NixxxoN]

Luigi is very slow both on the ground and in the air.

Luigi is slow in horizontal speed, but not in vertical speed

 

[DMoogle]

Luigi is slow in horizontal speed, but not in vertical speed

3rd slowest fall acceleration, tied for 2nd slowest maximum fall speed.

 

[mr yo]

As for recovery, despite popular misconception both of their rising tornadoes raise the same distance (luigi is just taller) which would give mario a significantly better recovery due to his fireball paths.

yeah, thats true...but to do the tallest rising up tornado you have to smash a lot faster the b button with mario tahn with luigi.... in fact is almos imposible to do the tallest rising up tornado with mario without tas or macro.
many people online use macros for the rising pound...thats cheating...a good and fair luigi and mario player will do a taller rising up tornado with luigi than mith mario....the minimun mistake with mario and the down be might make him go down, instead of up.



another advante in favour of mario is his up b....yeah, he doesnt have the fire punch...but the extended hitbox and the duration of the attack makes it more difficult to edgeguard.

if you are hit with marios up b....you can bounce against the edge and lose a life ore you will be send far away and mario will recover.

with luigis up b, if you are hit you can attack an instant after that...so its a litle easier to edgeguard.

 

[linkoninja]

Mario's fireballs are usually better,
his short hop is better overall against characters,
stronger up-smash than luigi
his dash attack is better.
His Up-B is better for recovering
Mario's grabs are stronger I think
And yeah like others have said on the ground Luigi's game isn't as good.
Mario's is better since his air speed is quicker, and his short hop is great so he barely leaves the ground.

 

[greenblob]

The tier list is created with a certain level of play in mind. At different levels of play, the tier list may be way off. For example, at low levels of play, I would certainly place Ness at top tier.

Agreed. An analogy to this is imagine creating a tier list for drag racing, but the two vehicle options are a car and a tricycle. Obviously the car would rank above the tricycle, if the contestants know how to drive. But what if they were 3-year-olds? In that case, the tricycle would fare better.
Basically, as long as you pick a character that isn't complete crap (and this is arguable), just go with whomever you like (in most games, while the tier list is broken up into numerous tiers, there essentially are two: playable and unplayable). By the time the tier list really comes into play, you should have a solid understanding of the game mechanics to be able to choose the right main for you, whether it's the character you've been playing all along or the top tier character everyone else plays.

 

[th3kuzinator]

Mario's grabs are stronger I think

Not true.

Mario's Fthrow: 14%
Mario's Bthrow: 16%

Luigi's Fthrow: 16%
Luigi's Bthrow: 14%

Lol at luigi's fthrow being stronger. Thx nintendo

 

[linkoninja]

I meant in terms of distance?
I think they throw farther than Luigis

 

[NixxxoN]

3rd slowest fall acceleration, tied for 2nd slowest maximum fall speed.

I'd say he still he has enough speed. Luigis main problem is his approach

 

[linkoninja]

I'd say he still he has enough speed. Luigis main problem is his approach

true
his dash attack is almost useless
his down tilt isn't that great
Up tilt has lag
his short hop is too high to hit short characters with the drill, f-air, b-air (Pika, Jiggs, etc)

 

[th3kuzinator]

luigis dash attack into a wall --> upb = priceless

same thing with dtilts

 

[linkoninja]

luigis dash attack into a wall --> upb = priceless

same thing with dtilts

thats pretty situational though
considering that the only stage with a wall is hyrule
and peaches castle is harder since the bottom platform moves

 

[The Star King]

Uh you can just shield dash attack -> upb

 

[asianaussie]

Mario and Luigi had cloned throws in (J) but they were simply reversed in (U). Mario's B-Throw = Luigi's F-Throw and Mario's F-Throw = Luigi's B-Throw.

 

[lolzlolzlolzlolz]

1) Why is Luigi ranked 10 if he is basically mario with a super charged up-B?

2) How is Mario better than Luigi? Like in what way??

3) How do Mario's (or if Luigi is better, Luigi's) stack up to Pikachu's and Fox's?

Also if you don't mind I just had a couple other questions since I'm new here haha.

4) Why are Samus and Link ranked so low? I used to consider them my alternates.... I guess I'll start with Pikachu...

-------------------------------

1) His Up-B isn't as good as mario's. Mario's up-B is always hitting you and can knock you back. Luigi's is just to hit someone and first part of it and the rest is fail because if you hit them with out the explosion then it wont do any good unless you wanted to give them 1 extra %.

2) Mario is faster and has less jumping hight and has a spike for downB. Luigi's short hop can be easily countered with upsmash and mario's fireballs have gravity unlike luigi's.

3) Mario and every other character are the exact same level. It's just how people use them that make them what they are. No one counters anyone. Say Kirby vs DK. Kirby counters DK? Well what if DK just gimps by dojo and then does a donkey kong style falcon punch on their asz and kill them in begging of match.

4. Samus has sort of bad recovery and she only has a few moves that are mainly used to kill people with. Link has horrible recovery too.

 

[Zen Yore]

1) Why is Luigi ranked 10 if he is basically mario with a super charged up-B?

2) How is Mario better than Luigi? Like in what way??

3) How do Mario's (or if Luigi is better, Luigi's) stack up to Pikachu's and Fox's?

Also if you don't mind I just had a couple other questions since I'm new here haha.

4) Why are Samus and Link ranked so low? I used to consider them my alternates.... I guess I'll start with Pikachu...

1) Luigi has a better Up+b for comboing and a stronger tornado move. Basically, Luigi is better for finishers.

2) Mario outballs Luigi for everything other than finishers (comboing, recovery, shield-breaking, spacing).

3) Fox and Pika are too good, but they are easy as hell to combo when using Mario or Luigi. I personally prefer using Luigi when playing a Pikachu and Mario for a Fox user.

4) Samus has nearly no comboing potential other than rapetent and classic DAir to Bair/Nair/Charge Shot, that's probably the only reason she is so low. Her recovery is actually quite good if u know how to use it (reverse charge shots, down+b, know when to up+b). And for Link, he simply has a horrible recovery. Besides that, I find him an excellent character.
They don't suck, they're just low in the tier list (their is no bad characters in ssb64, unlike in melee and brawl where half the chars suck)

 

[ballin4life]

Two semi hijacks:

1) A$ why do you think ness is better for lower skill players?

2) Falcon's recovery is worse than links imo and definitely second worst after ness. Although Falcon does have better ledge options than link (hanging from the ledge)

 

[th3kuzinator]

Two semi hijacks:

1) A$ why do you think ness is better for lower skill players?

2) Falcon's recovery is worse than links imo and definitely second worst after ness. Although Falcon does have better ledge options than link (hanging from the ledge)

I am curious about both these questions myself. Watching a really good ness player makes me realise the amount of dexterity and patience that goes into that character. I dont know if your just talking about sh dairs but if your talking about DJC, ness gets very complex

I also, for one, like links recovery. Though easy to gimp if timed perfectly from the top, the horizontal hitbox on the plane with his sword is awesome and can even beat a pika fsmash sometimes. As for ledge options i would have to agree again. 50% of the time I stay on the ledge too long thinking about how im going to get off it and get dtilted -_-

As for worst recovery i think it would go

ness
cfalcon
link/fox

 

[ballin4life]

Recovery Tier List:

Top:
Pika

High:
Mario
Luigi

Mid:
Kirby
Jiggs
Yoshi
Samus

Low:
Fox
DK
Link

Bottom:
Falcon
Ness

 

[asianaussie]

Kirby/Jiggs from high > Yoshi > Kirby/Jiggs from low

DK might be higher than Fox, his arms are really big.

 

[Blade689]

@Ballin4life: I would actually agree that Ness is a stronger character in lower levels of play. His ground game can be quite effective just dash A and grab. He has a D-air that is godly and pk fire really does mess with people. To get good with Ness takes quite a while, but his basic game is stronger then most beginning techniques.

Sure his recovery takes a long time to get down, but anyone can do it. if there isn't anyone on the edge to punish them, its significantly better then most recoveries in the game.

 

[NTA]

luigis mainproblem are links -_-
if they dont allow u to get up its game over -_-
bs link -_-

 

[ballin4life]

@Ballin4life: I would actually agree that Ness is a stronger character in lower levels of play. His ground game can be quite effective just dash A and grab. He has a D-air that is godly and pk fire really does mess with people. To get good with Ness takes quite a while, but his basic game is stronger then most beginning techniques.

Sure his recovery takes a long time to get down, but anyone can do it. if there isn't anyone on the edge to punish them, its significantly better then most recoveries in the game.

If it's all about grabs then wouldn't DK be better, with huge grab range, cargo throw and up b?

 

[dch111]

If it's all about grabs then wouldn't DK be better, with huge grab range, cargo throw and up b?

Well at lower levels of play, DK is also way too easy to hit to spam grabs. The "all about grab" stage applies mostly to grabbing with small characters like Pikachu, Kirby, and Ness, who can rampage with grabs unchecked because of lack of short hopping to hit those characters. Whereas people can easily hit DK with full hop aerials, so they quickly discover how to counter his grabs. The DK players, on the other hand, don't know how to counter that counter since they don't know how to abuse upB yet to get out of pressure situations. All his other attacks are too slow, and only his bthrow is good since people don't know how to abuse fthrow techniques, and the fthrow itself is pretty weak. Whereas Ness's is strong either way.

Ness's recovery is also much, much better at lower levels, and especially in teams and free for all (even true of higher levels). DK's recovery is seen as worst second to Link; people are afraid to go below the edge to edgeguard, so Fox and Falcon haven't gotten shafted yet. Whereas it is obvious early on how to edgeguard DK since he comes at you in a straight line

 

[firo]

Not to spark up some other conversations, but its fascinating what you can do with ness's recovery if you really wanna maximize your chance at getting back. That's not to say his recovery doesn't stink, but the nature of the move gives ness a lot more angles and variations than any other character, especially when he's above the ledge. I'd say that about 30% of the time I use up-b with ness to recover I'm back on the stage fighting, even against top players.

I was thinking about making a topic/video about ness recovery tactics that I've been using. To me, recovery strategies is one of the most fun aspects of the game.

I also find link's edge hanging recovery skills to be quite varied, all of his air moves can be used effectively after he jumps from dropping the ledge, dair, fair, and sometimes uair leading to guaranteed grabs if shielded, in addition to his up-b from the ledge to get people out of the way. Even the boomerang can make its way in there. Falcon, on the other hand, only really can uair or fair his way off the ledge (maybe dair if the opponent fails to shield), although his roll up is pretty quick.

 

[The Star King]

Too bad that when you're recovering from below with Ness you are dead, unless your opponent messes up big time.